CMC#11 Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 your exactly right Matt. thats why my platform has to carry the extra 50lbs. and thats why i'm ok w/ it. So b/c of one bad move the "Mustang drivers" are labeled as sub-par individuals in regards to car prep. and car control. Being serious, what I've gathered from the last few pages of info is that: Glenn and all other GM's prep their cars better. Glenn and all other GM's are more consistent, hence better drivers. Glenn and all other GM's don't make mistakes on track. The only thing that "consistency" is going to give Mustangs is a view of the GM consistently getting farther and farther away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 your exactly right Matt. thats why my platform has to carry the extra 50lbs. and thats why i'm ok w/ it. So b/c of one bad move the "Mustang drivers" are labeled as sub-par individuals in regards to car prep. and car control. Being serious, what I've gathered from the last few pages of info is that: Glenn and all other GM's prep their cars better. Glenn and all other GM's are more consistent, hence better drivers. Glenn and all other GM's don't make mistakes on track. The only thing that "consistency" is going to give Mustangs is a view of the GM consistently getting farther and farther away. the only thing i know is my car prep is good. can it be better? i'm sure, but not much. but i'm already working on 2008. so its not that GM prep is better, its Jeff, Glenn, Nick prep their cars well. just the way i see it. and its not GM doesnt make mistakes, its Jeff, Glenn, Nick seem to not do so. Cody was a freak and came from nowhere. i'll not try to explain it. he ran two classes and was on track for 3 days before the NASA track time started. i'm really tired of this. see you guys at the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Here's why: http://www.optimummotorsports.com/Video/Byerly_Keyhole_Incident.wmv wow, i didnt see myself, Jeff, or Nick pull that kind of stunt. you helping me make my case or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Maybe the Mustang is just harder to drive on the edge than the GM's. That would explain the differences in consistency. The Mustang can get really nasty when driven at the edge. I find it very hard to believe that only the GM guys prep their cars and only the GM guys know how to drive! I don't mean to build up an already large ego but from the videos I have seen I would like to see what Varner could do in a top notch Mustang against the GM guys. This guy was winning bringing a slingshot to a gun fight. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 your exactly right Matt. thats why my platform has to carry the extra 50lbs. and thats why i'm ok w/ it. So b/c of one bad move the "Mustang drivers" are labeled as sub-par individuals in regards to car prep. and car control. Being serious, what I've gathered from the last few pages of info is that: Glenn and all other GM's prep their cars better. Glenn and all other GM's are more consistent, hence better drivers. Glenn and all other GM's don't make mistakes on track. The only thing that "consistency" is going to give Mustangs is a view of the GM consistently getting farther and farther away. No, not at all. It does say that the in car Mustang was running with the 4th gen car. He closed big time in Carousel and didn't lose anything on the front straight. I don't know if the driver was "nudged" in T1 to get so loose or not. As quickly as the 2 car came around, it's certainly possible. But like I've said several times, that one bad move knocked 4 Mustangs out of contention ... the 2 careening off course, and the 2 in that pack that had to lift so they wouldn't get caught up in it. Making wholesale rules changes based upon a specific circumstance makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 I said this earlier but, the Mustangs that got caught up in that incident were nowhere near the top 4 GM's in the field. We were watching from the grandstands at the end of the backstraight and the top 4 were already clear of the backstraight. I don't see how the Mustangs that got involved in the incident had anything to do with the GM's that pulled away from everyone?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 I said this earlier but, the Mustangs that got caught up in that incident were nowhere near the top 4 GM's in the field. We were watching from the grandstands at the end of the backstraight and the top 4 were already clear of the backstraight. I don't see how the Mustangs that got involved in the incident had anything to do with the GM's that pulled away from everyone?? that just one example of thing i saw all weekend, some i was involved in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 the only thing i know is my car prep is good. can it be better? i'm sure, but not much. but i'm already working on 2008. so its not that GM prep is better, its Jeff, Glenn, Nick prep their cars well. just the way i see it. and its not GM doesnt make mistakes, its Jeff, Glenn, Nick seem to not do so. Cody was a freak and came from nowhere. i'll not try to explain it. he ran two classes and was on track for 3 days before the NASA track time started. i'm really tired of this. see you guys at the track. C'mon dude I was on the track for a 1/2 day of pradtice before the NASA weekend offically started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 your exactly right Matt. thats why my platform has to carry the extra 50lbs. and thats why i'm ok w/ it. So b/c of one bad move the "Mustang drivers" are labeled as sub-par individuals in regards to car prep. and car control. Being serious, what I've gathered from the last few pages of info is that: Glenn and all other GM's prep their cars better. Glenn and all other GM's are more consistent, hence better drivers. Glenn and all other GM's don't make mistakes on track. The only thing that "consistency" is going to give Mustangs is a view of the GM consistently getting farther and farther away. No, not at all. It does say that the in car Mustang was running with the 4th gen car. He closed big time in Carousel and didn't lose anything on the front straight. I don't know if the driver was "nudged" in T1 to get so loose or not. As quickly as the 2 car came around, it's certainly possible. But like I've said several times, that one bad move knocked 4 Mustangs out of contention ... the 2 careening off course, and the 2 in that pack that had to lift so they wouldn't get caught up in it. Making wholesale rules changes based upon a specific circumstance makes no sense. I don't think he was nudged. Just wicked loose. I wouldn't do 2 laps in that car. Damn good driver right there. Bad car chief (setup). Too much spring/bar/gear or all. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 What happened to that Mustang is that lousy four four link in the back. Even with the bandaid fix consisting of a Panhard rod, which introduces a conflicting roll center, it is still not going to match the GM suspension. By the way when I started this thread I figured The GM people would be the only people who think there is nothing wrong with the rules. Also MY car is being built from a bare tub. Just so you Chevy boyz don't think I am slacking off here. Tom Young Ford man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Blah, Blah, Blah... Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... The Mustangs got beat. <---(period) This is the same dogfood we were being served years ago when the Mustangs were winning. Parity, rules favorites, chosen few with "the" setup... Blah, Blah, Blah... Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... How soon we all forget the whole rule adjustment for 2007 which allowed the Cobra setup for the Mustangs. Alas, a way for Mustangs to be able to make GM horsepower and compete better. Look guys...I think I speak for Tony G. and the rest of the National Series Directors when I say that a big part of our rules philosophy is RULES STABILITY. The last thing we want is to start whip-sawing rules at the whim of a few successful GM drivers. Tony & I (as well as many other Mustang drivers) have run (and beat) these top 5 GM drivers in the past and know that it can be done. Consistency is King. The GM guys brought their A-game to Mid-Ohio and they deserve the spoils. We'll review the rules during the silly-season, but don't expect sweeping changes. It's time for the Ford guys to step up their game, go measure their sway bars, find that shock valve adjustment screw and drive it like a banshee. Blah, Blah, Blah... Quit your quivering... I'm tired of the "I'm not winning so it must be the other guys fault" syndrome. I was tired of it when Glenn & Mitch were singing it years ago...and I'm tired of it now that the Mustang guys are singing the same sad song! As we say in Texas....."Cinch it up!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 You chose to not have to deal with my pit bosses Bev & Carolyn. jb Forget Texas, nobody wants to mess with Team Burch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 What happened to that Mustang is that lousy four four link in the back. Even with the bandaid fix consisting of a Panhard rod, which introduces a conflicting roll center, it is still not going to match the GM suspension. By the way when I started this thread I figured The GM people would be the only people who think there is nothing wrong with the rules. Also MY car is being built from a bare tub. Just so you Chevy boyz don't think I am slacking off here. Tom Young Ford man. nice. i'll look for ya in 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Blah, Blah, Blah...Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... The Mustangs got beat. <---(period) This is the same dogfood we were being served years ago when the Mustangs were winning. Parity, rules favorites, chosen few with "the" setup... Blah, Blah, Blah... Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... How soon we all forget the whole rule adjustment for 2007 which allowed the Cobra setup for the Mustangs. Alas, a way for Mustangs to be able to make GM horsepower and compete better. Look guys...I think I speak for Tony G. and the rest of the National Series Directors when I say that a big part of our rules philosophy is RULES STABILITY. The last thing we want is to start whip-sawing rules at the whim of a few successful GM drivers. Tony & I (as well as many other Mustang drivers) have run (and beat) these top 5 GM drivers in the past and know that it can be done. Consistency is King. The GM guys brought their A-game to Mid-Ohio and they deserve the spoils. We'll review the rules during the silly-season, but don't expect sweeping changes. It's time for the Ford guys to step up their game, go measure their sway bars, find that shock valve adjustment screw and drive it like a banshee. Blah, Blah, Blah... Quit your quivering... I'm tired of the "I'm not winning so it must be the other guys fault" syndrome. I was tired of it when Glenn & Mitch were singing it years ago...and I'm tired of it now that the Mustang guys are singing the same sad song! As we say in Texas....."Cinch it up!" Todd, your next beer is on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 I knew that the "DIRECTORS" would still be running thesame old crap. It makes me feel like I am still in the SCCA. Tom Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Stone1548534713 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Well thanks Matt for posting that video. I never did get a chance to view it. It looks like a stupid move until you see my video. After following that ill handling car for twelve laps on his home track I finally got a clean move on the inside after watching his car go 45 degrees through turn one, and no, nobody nudged him, his car was, as I think jeff put it, WICKED loose, I easily ran up on him and waited for his first move which was to the left to block just like he had been doing the whole race since that is where I was coming. I quickly jumped to the inside and gave him plenty of room by moving all the way to the edge of the grass. BIG mistake. He makes a second move to the right which you can see if you watch closely, keep in mind as you watch his video that I had pulled even with him and we are door to door for the last two hundred yards there and the pass was done under throttle not a last ditch brake in. If you watch his line you can see why they call it the keyhole. As he forces me to either muscle him by putting a fender on him and push him to the left or try to stop in grass. I chose not to hit him and the grass was VERY slippery and the car bounced on the burm and Rusty and I paid the price. That's what happened. I would never intentionally hit another competitor or even try to muscle him out of the way. That's not how we race in Ca. If a racer gets a good run on me because he exited a corner better I give him room and try to beat him on the next turn or lap, I never try to make it as close as possible and squeeze my fellow racers into the dirt or grass which is what happened in this case. When I slipped on the first lap I was in fourth place and I had Mr Byerly on my door through Thunder valley and all the way to the front straight and I gave him plenty of room never touched him and lost the spot so as not to force the issue. I watched that black 0 mustang spin off track like five times during the weekend. What I learned at the Nationals is every thing is turned up a notch. It seemed like a pitched battle for every spot on the track. We got so busy behind those two ill handling tail waggers, one a GM and one a Ford that we had lost the leaders by over ten seconds at that point. We ran consistant laps but were always in traffic and battling for every inch of track. I think the GM boys have done their homework and us Ford guys got a way to go,but that's why we race right? Hey Rusty send me your address and I'll send you some cash for your car damage. Again sorry about that, totally unintentional. Pat Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc35 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Blah, Blah, Blah...Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... The Mustangs got beat. <---(period) This is the same dogfood we were being served years ago when the Mustangs were winning. Parity, rules favorites, chosen few with "the" setup... Blah, Blah, Blah... Idle banter, Idle banter, Idle banter... Blah, Blah, Blah... How soon we all forget the whole rule adjustment for 2007 which allowed the Cobra setup for the Mustangs. Alas, a way for Mustangs to be able to make GM horsepower and compete better. Look guys...I think I speak for Tony G. and the rest of the National Series Directors when I say that a big part of our rules philosophy is RULES STABILITY. The last thing we want is to start whip-sawing rules at the whim of a few successful GM drivers. Tony & I (as well as many other Mustang drivers) have run (and beat) these top 5 GM drivers in the past and know that it can be done. Consistency is King. The GM guys brought their A-game to Mid-Ohio and they deserve the spoils. We'll review the rules during the silly-season, but don't expect sweeping changes. It's time for the Ford guys to step up their game, go measure their sway bars, find that shock valve adjustment screw and drive it like a banshee. Blah, Blah, Blah... Quit your quivering... I'm tired of the "I'm not winning so it must be the other guys fault" syndrome. I was tired of it when Glenn & Mitch were singing it years ago...and I'm tired of it now that the Mustang guys are singing the same sad song! As we say in Texas....."Cinch it up!" Todd, your next beer is on me. And the one after that is on me. re: "How soon we all forget the whole rule adjustment for 2007 which allowed the Cobra setup for the Mustangs." - I certainly haven't forgotten. I was thrilled when I read that change, and have been adding some of the Cobra pieces to my car, slowly. If I want to win - which I do - then I need to accept that I need to keep working on my car. AND on my driving. It takes both. -chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 My engine makes "GM power" without a single Cobra part. The Cobra parts were unnecessary and allowing them did nothing to address the contention that the CHASSIS are not equalized under the current rules. With equal power, the cars are not equally matched at the same weight or even within 50 pounds in the case of the 4th Gen. My question again to Todd and Tony is why were the weight rules changed in 2004 and 2005 to favor the GM platforms and how long are we going to have to wait to make a correction back in the direction of parity? Since both GM cars have a torque arm, how about we let the Mustangs have those too? I don't expect that to happen, so the parity will have to be achieved through weight adjustments. The GM and Ford chassis are not equal. Anybody with a rudimentary understanding of suspension theory knows that. That doesn't mean the two platforms can't compete heads-up, but there needs to be some allowance to make up for the weakness of the Ford rear suspension, and the best answer is adding weight to the GMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Well thanks Matt for posting that video. I never did get a chance to view it. It looks like a stupid move until you see my video. After following that ill handling car for twelve laps on his home track I finally got a clean move on the inside after watching his car go 45 degrees through turn one, and no, nobody nudged him, his car was, as I think jeff put it, WICKED loose, I easily ran up on him and waited for his first move which was to the left to block just like he had been doing the whole race since that is where I was coming. I quickly jumped to the inside and gave him plenty of room by moving all the way to the edge of the grass. BIG mistake. He makes a second move to the right which you can see if you watch closely, keep in mind as you watch his video that I had pulled even with him and we are door to door for the last two hundred yards there and the pass was done under throttle not a last ditch brake in. If you watch his line you can see why they call it the keyhole. As he forces me to either muscle him by putting a fender on him and push him to the left or try to stop in grass. I chose not to hit him and the grass was VERY slippery and the car bounced on the burm and Rusty and I paid the price. That's what happened. I would never intentionally hit another competitor or even try to muscle him out of the way. That's not how we race in Ca. If a racer gets a good run on me because he exited a corner better I give him room and try to beat him on the next turn or lap, I never try to make it as close as possible and squeeze my fellow racers into the dirt or grass which is what happened in this case. When I slipped on the first lap I was in fourth place and I had Mr Byerly on my door through Thunder valley and all the way to the front straight and I gave him plenty of room never touched him and lost the spot so as not to force the issue. I watched that black 0 mustang spin off track like five times during the weekend. What I learned at the Nationals is every thing is turned up a notch. It seemed like a pitched battle for every spot on the track. We got so busy behind those two ill handling tail waggers, one a GM and one a Ford that we had lost the leaders by over ten seconds at that point. We ran consistant laps but were always in traffic and battling for every inch of track. I think the GM boys have done their homework and us Ford guys got a way to go,but that's why we race right? Hey Rusty send me your address and I'll send you some cash for your car damage. Again sorry about that, totally unintentional. Pat Stone Pat, Nice, stand-up post. I saw the whole thing while spotting in Keyhole. It was a spectacular show. I very much appreciate your taking the time and giving your account of the incident. It puts everything into perspective. Thanks, Pat. Brady was right. You are a gentleman racer. My hat's off! There are a few, some still racing and some have just quit, who want to win at any cost ... I used to be one. For me, I had to come to the realization that I didn't want to win behind a keyboard nor between the pages of a rule book. That kind of "victory doesn't mean very much. But it does cost a heckuva lot. I lost a lot of respect from fellow competitors from my continuous rants about how the Ford camp had an unfair advantage. That lack of respect translated away from the keyboard and internet and into the paddock and then onto the track. A very high price to pay. It's taken 2 years to even to begin to recover from that. I am embarrassed when I re-read some of my posts. I deserved everything I got. I post this hoping some of you might learn from my mistakes and maybe see the way things boomerang sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Pat, I have never met you but the words and sentiment in your post are from the kind of guy that I look to run with. Thanks for that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Pat, nice post. you seem like a really cool guy and it was fun joking around w/ you. i look forward to racing w/ you in Cali next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redding CMCer Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 My 2cents...I have raced with Pat this past year and I have to say HE is one of the main reasons I decided to get into CMC. He is not only a lot of fun off the track...but he is someone you can trust on the track. My car was substantially down on power this year and more than one time I would look in my mirror and Pat would be there WAITING for a safe place to pass. He could have bump drafted, pinched, squeezed or whatever to get by but he was always a gentleman...patient and careful. This is not to say he isn't competitive. Pat...I look forward to T'hill. I hope you can make it because it won't be the same without you. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady in Nomex Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Ask anyone who races with Pat if he is a stand up guy and you'll get a resounding "yes" from everyone you speak to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Stone1548534713 Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Thanks guys and gal. I really do enjoy racing with all of you and the fun we have on race weekends. CMC is the bomb. Let's not bicker too much or we'll take the fun out of it. Each time we get on the track hopefully we all become better drivers and don't lose sight of the main goal which is to race our cars in a competitive safe enviorment just for the fun of it. I've seen fast drivers in Fords and F-bodies. It's all about the preparation, comfort level and a little luck to win these things. I think a lot of drivers in our series could compete on many different levels and be successful. It's true the GM's are tough but I think if you put those drivers in any well prepped car they would be fast because they love it and they are very focused. We'll look forward to racing with you in Cali. Glenn. See you at T-hill Gary. You know I wouldn't miss a race weekend. We still got a shot at regional title and my co-driver is not a crazy mustang driver. Thanks for the kind words everyone. PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastjohn Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Pat he's not a Mustang driver, but were all crazy for having fun like this! That Camaro gets might wide when you get behind him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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