17" wheel in CMC future

[Trevor571548534737]

 

I'm lost. What is it you are wanting?)

 

A little clarity.

 

If the intent of the rule is to save people money, than allow people to use any size wheel they want, and restrict tire width and wheel weight.

 

 

 

[cmc35]

Trevor -

 

With all due respect, you're either being purposely dense, or simply dense by nature. Either way, the answer is the same:

CMC = 16" wheels.

CMC2 = 17" wheels.

 

In each class, there is a maximum tire size.

 

When I brought my SN95 to CMC, it had 17" wheels with 13" rotors up front, all stock equipment. CMC was where I wanted to be, so I converted to 12" rotors and 16" wheels. End of story.

 

-chris

[TurboShortBus]

There is no performance advantage in a 255/17 over a 255/16 right? Is that a valid reason?

I have run both sizes in RA1s (255/50-16 and 255/40-17), and I have noticed no performance difference or feel, even with the 1" difference in diameter and slightly wider rated width for the 255/40-17s. But, I'm no expert at car setup either, so maybe a better driver would notice a difference.

 

I only switched to 17" wheels to clear the 13" brakes on TTD car that I plan to run in CMC-2 "one of these days." I stuck to the 255 width 1) to compare apples to apples for width and 2) to keep from taking extra TT points.

 

Mark

[Sidney]

 

When I brought my SN95 to CMC, it had 17" wheels with 13" rotors up front, all stock equipment. CMC was where I wanted to be, so I converted to 12" rotors and 16" wheels. End of story.

 

-chris

 

Chris,

 

When you bought your SN95 did CMC2 exist? In other words...would you have kept the 17's and run CMC2 instead of keeping the 17's and forced to run AI?

 

Sidney

[TurboShortBus]

No 275s? Sidewall thickness and bulge when using a 255/17 on a factory 17x9" rim was rolling the bead and bending the lips of rims on the pavement. Thats a safety issue.

Hmmm, I must be doing it wrong. I'm running 255/40-17 RA1s on OEM Ford 2003 Mustang Cobra 17x9 wheels, and I have no such problems with rolling the bead, bending lips on the pavement, or any combination of those. I don't think the RA1s stick that well for any of the above to happen. My lap times at Homestead, Sebring, and Road Atlanta suggest that I'm driving the car pretty hard, so it's not for a lack of heavy use. But, I've seen some AI/CMC videos from Texas, and it looks like you guys are pretty, uh, "aggressive," so that kind of use might affect the sidewalls.

 

Mark

[Sidney]

 

I'm lost. What is it you are wanting?)

 

A little clarity.

 

If the intent of the rule is to save people money, than allow people to use any size wheel they want, and restrict tire width and wheel weight.

 

 

 

 

Trevor,

 

Just a little advise... A newbie really has to have thick skin when posting potential rules changes to a National Forum. These guys have fought very hard to keep CMC and CMC2 competitive and cost friendly and will take anyone, and especially someone who hasn't even raced yet in CMC to task.

 

Regarding you running your 17's in CMC....we've already agree to allow this in the Midwest & Great Lakes Regions for 2010. Trust me...between Bryan, Bob, Kent, and me...we'll point you down the road that will get you on the track the easiest and least costly as we can. We've been there and done that.

 

Sidney Franklin

CMC #64

[cmc35]

Sidney,

 

Fair question, as there was no CMC2 back then. But in a sense, I did choose: I chose not to spend AI money.

 

If I was coming to CMC today, I would definitely have a choice to make. My choice would be based on the overall picture, and what I would need to do to my car. For example, faced with a choice between turning my old motor into a CMC2 power level, or buying 16" wheels for CMC, I might go with CMC; my old motor was way down on power, and it's taken me several years to get it up to CMC levels.

 

But my point is that I would make a choice, based on the series. What I would not do, is ask for changes.

 

-chris

[Glenn]

the 255/17 tire issue that Mitch refered to was seen w/ 9.5" wide wheels, not 9" wheels.

[KiMifan]

That info makes a BIG difference.

[Glenn]

That info makes a BIG difference.

 

should we make an explanation of each and every rule as to why it was set the way it was, or would you take the word of the guys who originally wrote them that it was in the best interest of the series?

point is, there is a reason. put a little faith in the folks who run the series that between us all, the correct dicision will be made.

[Trevor571548534737]

Sorry for being dense. Should I not talk about 17" wheels in CMC in this thread?

[FBody383]

Sorry for being dense. Should I not talk about 17" wheels in CMC in this thread?

 

See below:

With all due respect, you're either being purposely dense, or simply dense by nature. Either way, the answer is the same:

CMC = 16" wheels.

CMC2 = 17" wheels.

 

In each class, there is a maximum tire size.

 

2009 TX CMC Rookie

[KiMifan]

That info makes a BIG difference.

But it also suggests that a 17x9 with a 255 could be a viable option in CMC. Using results from the wider wheel as an argument for why the smaller tire/wheel combo would not work is disingenuous.

[bsim]

So is asking for a change that will effect 100% of the national legal CMC cars.

[KiMifan]

Rules that affect 100 percent of national legal cars in CMC get changed every year dude.

[Tri-Agan]

So is asking for a change that will effect 100% of the national legal CMC cars.

 

100% of nothing is still nothing. In a couple of years when CMC dries up because we didn't evolve, we will have very few, if any, CMC cars out here to worry about. If you don't evolve, the series will dry up, it's that simple. Back in the 80's there were many race classes with older cars.....they are all gone because they didn't keep the rules current to allow new cars. I've seen quite a few old Camaro's and Mustangs out there without a class to race in except AI. IMO, a Fox and a 3rd gen are on the cusp of not having a place to run because we are holding back the rules. Every single SN-95 and 4th gen Camaro coming into the series out here is going the CMC-2 route. It won't be long until CMC dries up. The 17' inch wheel rule won't fix everything, but I know for a fact that it's a contributing factor to their decision to run CMC2. As NASA and CMC has grown, each region has evolved differently because we all started builing at different times. I don't expect to convince a TX CMC driver that CMC is dying on the vine, because they have mostly CMC cars. I also don't expect them to believe that I can't get any new drivers to join CMC out here because the fields are shrinking. The bottom line is that we have rusted out salty Fox and 3rd gen cars out here that happen to have all kinds of aftermarket parts.....not a good car to start CMC or CMC2 with. Every part of the country is in a different. I truly believe that the 17' wheel rule with help keep CMC around a little longer out here and that's why I made the decision. It really should be a national rule, but there isn't enough buy off from the other rule makers. Talk to your regional directors on a race weekend and plead your case.

 

I am losing 3 more of my CMC cars to CMC2 next year because the CMC fields are shrinking and they are tired of racing with 4-9 cars each weekend. As I said, I can't get anybody new to drive CMC, so everyone is bailing. We need new blood in CMC and rule tweaking is the only way to do it.

 

I don't expect to get a lot of agreement on this, and that's why we've kept the status quo with the CMC rules and there are still 16' wheels.

 

If you want change, you have to be a squeeky wheel. Speak up.

 

Kent

 

CMC Director

[mitchntx1548534714]

So is asking for a change that will effect 100% of the national legal CMC cars.

 

100% of nothing is still nothing. In a couple of years when CMC dries up because we didn't evolve, we will have very few, if any, CMC cars out here to worry about. If you don't evolve, the series will dry up, it's that simple. Back in the 80's there were many race classes with older cars.....they are all gone because they didn't keep the rules current to allow new cars. I've seen quite a few old Camaro's and Mustangs out there without a class to race in except AI. IMO, a Fox and a 3rd gen are on the cusp of not having a place to run because we are holding back the rules. Every single SN-95 and 4th gen Camaro coming into the series out here is going the CMC-2 route. It won't be long until CMC dries up. The 17' inch wheel rule won't fix everything, but I know for a fact that it's a contributing factor to their decision to run CMC2. As NASA and CMC has grown, each region has evolved differently because we all started builing at different times. I don't expect to convince a TX CMC driver that CMC is dying on the vine, because they have mostly CMC cars. I also don't expect them to believe that I can't get any new drivers to join CMC out here because the fields are shrinking. The bottom line is that we have rusted out salty Fox and 3rd gen cars out here that happen to have all kinds of aftermarket parts.....not a good car to start CMC or CMC2 with. Every part of the country is in a different. I truly believe that the 17' wheel rule with help keep CMC around a little longer out here and that's why I made the decision. It really should be a national rule, but there isn't enough buy off from the other rule makers. Talk to your regional directors on a race weekend and plead your case.

 

I am losing 3 more of my CMC cars to CMC2 next year because the CMC fields are shrinking and they are tired of racing with 4-9 cars each weekend. As I said, I can't get anybody new to drive CMC, so everyone is bailing. We need new blood in CMC and rule tweaking is the only way to do it.

 

I don't expect to get a lot of agreement on this, and that's why we've kept the status quo with the CMC rules and there are still 16' wheels.

 

If you want change, you have to be a squeeky wheel. Speak up.

 

Kent

 

CMC Director

 

I'm not gonna disagree with you Kent.

 

And to take it one step further, without allowing the newer cars, the reason CMC2 was spawned, CMC would dry up as well ... maybe not as fast, but still ...

 

So, I can see it as a damned if you and damned if you don't for those making the CMC/CMC2 decisions.

[Lady in Nomex]

Must be the rules and not the economy that has affected interest in CMC, right?

[Sidney]

Must be the rules and not the economy that has affected interest in CMC, right?

 

I think it is the economy that has many eyes on CMC right now and we need to make sure we're taking advantage of this situation. There is no other class that has as close of competition for V8 cars that is less expensive.

 

It's my opinion that now is the time to strike. There are threads all over the internet right now talking about CMC. You've got A Sedan guys talking about "Buying a past National Champion car for the cost of a motor". The AI guys all know how expensive that class has become without an end in sight.

 

We need open arms right now and if that means allowing 17 inch wheels in CMC so a newbie doesn't have to go out and buy 2 or 3 sets of 16's & removing his stock brakes with something less desirable, then we really need to think about that. I'm all for holding the line on rules but at some point it becomes a spec class and then you're talking $10,000 spec Miata motors and all the other horrors that go with that.

 

(I drive a 3rd gen and will not be putting 17's on even if the rules change.)

 

Sidney Franklin

CMC #64

[Al F.]

Overall good discussion guys, highlighting that many things in the rulebook are compromises. That reminds me...I think I'll repost the big long rules post from last year.

[Varkwso1548534736]

Trevor -

 

With all due respect, you're either being purposely dense, or simply dense by nature. Either way, the answer is the same:

CMC = 16" wheels.

CMC2 = 17" wheels.

 

....

-chris

 

Nice. I am fairly sure the average density of most humans is pretty much constant.

 

 

Tire width (in MM)is not a function of wheel diameter in inches. 17x8 or the current 16x8 legal CMC wheel will not impact the 255 on the ground. The sidewall will be different based on the available ratios. We have been running 245 on a 16x7.5 wheels (some ugly factory Mustang wheel) so I am giving up 10 mm and .5 inch in the combo already. Pretty much irrelevant to the issue of 17" wheels but so is a lot of other items.

 

NASA TT ignores tire diameter and looks at width - different set of rulemakers though. CMC seems to have great faith in the original cartels assessment of what is "right" for wheel size - and it is pointed out it is "their series" and newbies are to be seen and not heard.

[Adam Ginsberg]

.....and it is pointed out it is "their series" and newbies are to be seen and not heard.

 

We've seen this mentality before from new racers coming into the series.

 

We aren't ignoring you - we are telling you that CMC is staying with 16's, CMC2 runs 17's.

 

We are telling you to ask for the rule change during the silly season.

 

We are telling you that just because you ask for a rule change doesn't mean you'll get it.

 

Many new CMC racers ask for changes before they've hit the track (does not appear to be your case, but you are new to the series). We want you to race for a bit.....many times, once you have a season or two under your belt, you'll have a better understanding of why we don't like to change things.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you knew the rules coming into CMC. Clearly, something struck a chord - you liked what you saw, and decided to go CMC racing. So, race CMC with the current ruleset, go have fun, learn some things, and don't stop asking for the directors for changes during the silly season.

 

However, don't take a rule revision rejection personally - as directors, we have to look at the BIG PICTURE, not just what one competitor wishes to change.

[Lady in Nomex]

This is a great post, thanks Adam! Continuing this line of thought - the directors' time is limited and so are the newbs' and veteran CMCers' - after being in the series for a while I'd like to see the directors having more fun with the rest of us on track vs. time spent on rules, rules enforcement and other off-track stuff. There is a designated time we all hash the rules out yearly. In the time in between, veterans are helping the newbs, and newbs are getting seat time and learning about CMC, all while having a blast! CMC is a special class in that way so messing with the "machinery" is not taken lightly.

 

.....and it is pointed out it is "their series" and newbies are to be seen and not heard.

 

We've seen this mentality before from new racers coming into the series.

 

We aren't ignoring you - we are telling you that CMC is staying with 16's, CMC2 runs 17's.

 

We are telling you to ask for the rule change during the silly season.

 

We are telling you that just because you ask for a rule change doesn't mean you'll get it.

 

Many new CMC racers ask for changes before they've hit the track (does not appear to be your case, but you are new to the series). We want you to race for a bit.....many times, once you have a season or two under your belt, you'll have a better understanding of why we don't like to change things.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you knew the rules coming into CMC. Clearly, something struck a chord - you liked what you saw, and decided to go CMC racing. So, race CMC with the current ruleset, go have fun, learn some things, and don't stop asking for the directors for changes during the silly season.

 

However, don't take a rule revision rejection personally - as directors, we have to look at the BIG PICTURE, not just what one competitor wishes to change.

[Varkwso1548534736]

...you knew the rules coming into CMC. .....take a rule revision rejection personally - as directors, we have to look at the BIG PICTURE, not just what one competitor wishes to change.

 

Adam, yes I knew, and understood, the rules coming in - I even READ them first (before buying a CMC car even) - amazing concept I know for a new guy. I have been competing in NASA, and others, for a while though.

 

I never take anything that is not trying to shoot me serious...even then I consider how close they are coming before I really worry about it.

 

I understand the BIG PICTURE and I understand compliance to the rules. I enforce NASA rules almost every NASA event since that is our sanctioning body.

 

Don't take challenging the status quo personally either. There are technical, business, cost, political and organizational preference for rules - it is not always evident which bin rules fall in to the initiates.

 

CMC and CMC2 needs to keep its current racers and probably would like to add some new ones. I know I want more on the grid in SE - so a win gets into some contingency.

 

We may even have a fresh engine (built to current CMC rules) by CMP in Nov, or not, but if the car holds up we will be there, and Road Atlanta in Dec, on 16x7.5 wheels and 245 R888s.