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What coil springs to use on a fox?


CMC#11

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As far as my suspesion goes, right now I have all 6 control arms stock. I did just pick up SN95 A-arms/spindles at the junk yard the other day for around $40. New hubs for about $140 or so, and I’ll be content with the front.

 

Good start on the front. Replace the stock bushings with a set of Delrin units.....MM used to sell a kit, but I can't find it on their website. The old bushings are a PITA to remove.

 

BTW - Pepboys sells hubs for ~$47 per unit, and just recently had a $5 off coupon. I picked up four new hubs for $180. Always check their website for specials.

 

As for the back, I plan to replace the lower control arms with tubular aftermarkets and new bushings. And the top control arms can stay the same, but definitely new bushings.

 

Don't bother replacing the RUCA bushings - leave them stock rubber, and leave the stock upper arms in place. You need as much compliance out of the upper arms as possible. Pick up a set of MM rear lower control arms (part number MMRLCA-30). They have solid bushings, fixed spring perches, and mounting points for the swaybar.

 

Oh, and replace the steering rack bushings with a solid set (MMST-7).

 

I may have lucked out, can’t say, but I have factory Koni shocks/struts on my car from a Fox SVO. Perhaps they’re the right ones to have, or not. But they’re on and they’re free (so to say).

 

Use them for now, but you'll likely need to either rebuild or replace them.

 

As for springs, I put on at the beginning of this season H&R super race. They make the car feel very stiff, but I’m still trying to learn my driving style, so I’ll keep running them and see how well we mesh together.

 

The H&R Super Race is a good start. Once you get the all the suspension stuff put together, drive the setup, drive the setup, drive the setup. Don't make many significant changes (unless is behaving poorly), just keep on driving that setup. FWIW, I drove one particular setup on my car for about 5 years, and it allowed me to figure out exactly what my car would do, just about anywhere.

 

As mentioned, it's all about a particular person's driving style. As such, not everything one driver has done will translate well to another driver. There isn't a "perfect package" for ANY of the chassis in CMC. A 4th gen out here in CA runs much stiffer spring rates than most other 4th gens around the US. It works for him, but not for others.

 

It will take some time, but you need to figure out what works best for you.

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There isn't a "perfect package"

 

ah... crap

 

Pick up a set of MM rear lower control arms (part number MMRLCA-30). They have solid bushings, fixed spring perches, and mounting points for the swaybar.

 

The MM control arms are $330, p/n MMRLCA-30, where as the J&M are $210, p/n 23957.

http://www.hotpart.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=50

Are the MM ones that much better? Both claim they solve binding with their specific bushing design.

 

If I can save $120, that’ll pay for the new hubs and bushings for the front. I know people always say “You get what you pay forâ€, but I’m trying real hard to keep everything on a budget. Obviously, it’s not cheap to make a race car, but I’m willing to make compromises on each upgrade.

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Glenn, starting w/ sway bars there is only 1 bar available for the rear. The Fox has a 4 cyl + GT bar for the front. (Another option for the front might be the SN95 bar if that rule change is finalized). I run the 4 cyl bar up front with the standard bar in the rear.

When I switched to linear springs I started with 1000/300. After a year I dropped the fronts to 950 and liked the change. I ran these rates for 2 years until I found I had a blown strut this year at Hallett. I then switched to AST struts up front and had to drop the front springs to 850. I still have a push and will be doing testing in the offseason to help fix.

 

Like many have said there is no sweet setup. You either keep it stiff so have less hurt from the poor suspension design or you go softer and counter that way.

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Glenn, starting w/ sway bars there is only 1 bar available for the rear. The Fox has a 4 cyl + GT bar for the front.

 

Mmmm... ...not quite. There were more options than that for factory sway bars, but you have to look at the Standard vs. Handling vs. TRX and GT suspension packages prior to '87 or look at the Cobras. Even then there were some variations according to production dates.

 

From the '79-'93 Fox Mustang Recognition Guide:

 

Year: F: / R:

'79: F: 1", 1.06" / R: .5"

'80: F: 1", 1.125" / R: .5"

'81: F: .94", 1", 1.125" / R: .5"

'82: F: .94", 1", 1.125" / R: .5", .56"

'83: F: .94", 1.125" / R: .56", .67"

'84: F: .94", 1.125" / R: .67"

'85: F: .94", 1.30" / R: .79"

'86-'93: F: .94", 1.30" / R: .83"

all SVOs: F: 1.12" / R: .67"

'93 Cobra: F: 28.5mm or 1.12" (same as SVO) / R: 21mm or .83"

'93 CobraR: F: 31mm or 1.22" / R: 21mm or .83"

 

So that makes 7 different front sway bars and 5 different rear sway bars (6 if you count the no rear sway bar option also) that came on foxes from the factory.

 

UPDATE: I found some minor inconsistencies within Ford's own literature and within the Fox Recognition Guide which could be chalked up to typos and poor editing. However, I went out back, sampled my collection, and was able to use a set of calipers to verify the measurements shown above in red. It was very handy to have a couple of the ones that were really close in measurement actually side-by-side for comparison. It was very difficult with the naked eye to tell any difference between some of the closer measurements, but there was a definite measurable difference between the .94, 1.00, and 1.06 front bars as well as the .79 and .83 rear bars. To verify the availability of the remaining sway bar sizes listed above, we'd need someone to measure the front and rear bars on an SVO, the front and rear bars on a TRX package '82 or '83, and the front bar on a '93 Cobra R (even through we can't use R specific equipment).

 

I could look factory spring rates up also. I think those varied as much or more than the sway bars.

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This is some of the stuff I was "upset" about a few years back w/ the Ford guys.

I always got that "only 1 bar" answer for them. I just could not understand how that could be w/ the GT and V6 cars alone. There was a time when most guys didn't know what spring rates they ran.

 

I never got these type answers from the GM guys.

 

Thanks for the data.

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Replace the stock bushings with a set of Delrin units.....MM used to sell a kit, but I can't find it on their website. The old bushings are a PITA to remove.

 

Fire is your friend. Burn out the old bushings if all you're doing is replacing the rubber with poly. If you are replacing the rubber or poly bushings with Delrin, you have to remove the whole bushing with the bushing shell as the Delrin busings come with their own greasable aluminum shells you have to press in. The Delrin kit comes with a small piece of angle iron to use as a spacer between the two sides of the stamped metal A-arm so it doesn't collapse when you press out the old shell and press in the new shell.

 

As far as I could gather from the MM web site and talking with their tech support last year, they don't market the Delrin bushing set anymore. I was able to find a MM labled set for the '83-'93 fox A-arms at Chicane Sport Tuning by Googling the M-3070-G1 part number (M-3070-G2 should be the SN95 number). However, Joseph Gosinski, the owner of Chicane Sport Tuning was murdered in his shop last Christmas eve morning and as far as I know the business is closed. I did another quick search. They were listed as a Ford Racing part, but are unavailable at Summitt Racing. I did find them here:

http://www.venturaperformanceparts.com/item.asp?itemid=7

Here are the instructions still on the MM site even though you can't find the actual parts there anymore:

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/content/install/pdf/front_susp/M-3070s.pdf

 

Good luck finding a set. Maybe someone with some entrepreneurial sense could start making some solid Delrin or Aluminum ones (HINT, HINT...Don).

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Updated fox sway bar info in previous post.

 

I tried looking up the '94-'04 Mustang sway bar info also, but was very quickly overwhelmed by the inconsistent numbers I was finding. I might try later to get some better numbers and post them, but right now that's not very likely. It's also somewhat more complicate because some of the bars were solid, while some others were tubular. Fox sway bars are easier to compare because they are all solid and you can make the blanket statement that the bigger the bar, the stiffer it is. That is not necessarily the case with the '94-'04 bars.

 

Going through my paperwork also refreshed my memory that shopping for bushings for the various bar diameters is a real headache. There are NUMEROUS inconsistencies with the bushing manufacturers and what they say will fit what years and models of vehicles. The key is not to buy bushings based strictly on year and model. You MUST look at the actual dimensions of the bushing and match that with the bar you are using.

 

I have some other handy sway bar information about thickness and how that relates to stiffness that I'll see if I can dig up and post too.

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This is some of the stuff I was "upset" about a few years back w/ the Ford guys.

I always got that "only 1 bar" answer for them. I just could not understand how that could be w/ the GT and V6 cars alone. There was a time when most guys didn't know what spring rates they ran.

 

I never got these type answers from the GM guys.

 

Thanks for the data.

Are you freakin kidding me?

You are bitching b/c "us Ford guys" (or me) didn't know about some magical rear bar that came on an 82 Mustang w/ the TRX package (or whatever it is called). I'm sure they are all over the place on Craigslist.

Forgive me for not being as educated as the all mighty master. I guess you are on your own for Mustang advise since none of us have the intelligence to properly set up a car. Good luck.

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Paraphrased and reposted from another site:

 

Several factors determine sway bar stiffness... ...thickness and length, length of the swing arm or lever, bar material, and bar attachment method. But, if two sway bars differ only in their diameters, all you need to know is that their relative stiffness (torsional rigidity) is proportional to the 4th power of their diameters.

 

(larger bar diameter)to the 4th power / (smaller bar diameter)to the 4th power x 100 = percent change in stiffness

 

This applies to the factory fox sway bars.

 

Using the smallest 0.94" front sway bar as the starting point, the 1.00" bar has 128% the stiffness, or is 1.28x the stiffness of the 0.94" bar.

 

Completing the full comparison with the smallest 0.94" front sway bar:

1.00" = 128% or 1.28x

1.06" = 162% or 1.62x

1.12" = 202% or 2.02x

1.125" = 205% or 2.05x

1.22" = 284% or 2.84x

1.30" = 366% or 3.66x

 

Using the same formula to compare the 93 Cobra (SVO) front bar to the 93 Cobra R bar, the Cobra R sway bar is 141% or 1.41x the stiffness of the regular Cobra (SVO) front sway bar.

 

The '85-'93 GT front sway bar is still the biggest and stiffest factory fox front sway bar. Comparing that to the Cobra sway bars, it is 129% or 1.29x the stiffness of the Cobra R bar and is 182% or 1.82x the stiffness of the regular Cobra sway bar.

 

What I think is very interesting is that Ford put bigger tires and wheels on the Cobra and tuned the suspension to be a little softer, and even when they did stiffen it up for the R Model with higher front spring rates, they still didn't put on their biggest, stiffest front sway bar. They called this approach "controlled compliance". Yet virtually everyone goes directly to the '85-'93 front sway bar as the default to put on their CMC Mustang. Could this also be why nearly every CMC Mustang driver still complains of not being able to dial out that last bit of front end "push"? Is there just not a factory rear bar that is big enough to balance out the big GT front sway bar? Are we able to fully compensate for this by changing the front and rear spring rates?

 

If a bar is hollow (like some of the SN95 bars), the rate of the bar is first calculated based on its outside diameter (o.d.). Then the rate of a hypothetical bar matching the inside diameter (i.d.) of the space within is subtracted out. To do this, the wall thickness of the hollow bar is needed.

 

Doing the same comparison with the rear bars, starting with the smallest 0.50" rear bar as the baseline:

0.56" = 157%

0.67" = 322%

0.79" = 623%

0.83" = 759%

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This is some of the stuff I was "upset" about a few years back w/ the Ford guys.

I always got that "only 1 bar" answer for them. I just could not understand how that could be w/ the GT and V6 cars alone. There was a time when most guys didn't know what spring rates they ran.

 

I never got these type answers from the GM guys.

 

Thanks for the data.

Are you freakin kidding me?

You are bitching b/c "us Ford guys" (or me) didn't know about some magical rear bar that came on an 82 Mustang w/ the TRX package (or whatever it is called). I'm sure they are all over the place on Craigslist.

Forgive me for not being as educated as the all mighty master. I guess you are on your own for Mustang advise since none of us have the intelligence to properly set up a car. Good luck.

 

If it was limited to you, I would have written it off to one person just not knowing. But that was a common answer from Todd, Adam, and many other veteran CMC (and Fox chassis) guys. I see 3 or 4 options there that are regular production bars. But yet, just this week the answer of "1-2 bars is all there is" is what I get. The level of knowledge over your own platform has not changed since this thread started back in 2008.

I wish I had 4 front bars to pick from. I have 3 and one is pretty much non-existent and well over $300 when it was new. I have 2-3 rear bar options.

 

Don't get pissed at me because I called guys out over the lack of their platform knowledge.

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Paraphrased and reposted from another site:

 

Several factors determine sway bar stiffness... ...thickness and length, length of the swing arm or lever, bar material, and bar attachment method. But, if two sway bars differ only in their diameters, all you need to know is that their relative stiffness (torsional rigidity) is proportional to the 4th power of their diameters.

 

(larger bar diameter)to the 4th power / (smaller bar diameter)to the 4th power x 100 = percent change in stiffness

 

This applies to the factory fox sway bars.

 

Using the smallest 0.94" front sway bar as the starting point, the 1.00" bar has 128% the stiffness, or is 1.28x the stiffness of the 0.94" bar.

 

Completing the full comparison with the smallest 0.94" front sway bar:

1.00" = 128% or 1.28x

1.06" = 162% or 1.62x

1.12" = 202% or 2.02x

1.125" = 205% or 2.05x

1.22" = 284% or 2.84x

1.30" = 366% or 3.66x

 

Using the same formula to compare the 93 Cobra (SVO) front bar to the 93 Cobra R bar, the Cobra R sway bar is 141% or 1.41x the stiffness of the regular Cobra (SVO) front sway bar.

 

The '85-'93 GT front sway bar is still the biggest and stiffest factory fox front sway bar. Comparing that to the Cobra sway bars, it is 129% or 1.29x the stiffness of the Cobra R bar and is 182% or 1.82x the stiffness of the regular Cobra sway bar.

 

What I think is very interesting is that Ford put bigger tires and wheels on the Cobra and tuned the suspension to be a little softer, and even when they did stiffen it up for the R Model with higher front spring rates, they still didn't put on their biggest, stiffest front sway bar. They called this approach "controlled compliance". Yet virtually everyone goes directly to the '85-'93 front sway bar as the default to put on their CMC Mustang. Could this also be why nearly every CMC Mustang driver still complains of not being able to dial out that last bit of front end "push"? Is there just not a factory rear bar that is big enough to balance out the big GT front sway bar? Are we able to fully compensate for this by changing the front and rear spring rates?

 

If a bar is hollow (like some of the SN95 bars), the rate of the bar is first calculated based on its outside diameter (o.d.). Then the rate of a hypothetical bar matching the inside diameter (i.d.) of the space within is subtracted out. To do this, the wall thickness of the hollow bar is needed.

 

Doing the same comparison with the rear bars, starting with the smallest 0.50" rear bar as the baseline:

0.56" = 157%

0.67" = 322%

0.79" = 623%

0.83" = 759%

 

 

What a great post!

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This is some of the stuff I was "upset" about a few years back w/ the Ford guys.

I always got that "only 1 bar" answer for them. I just could not understand how that could be w/ the GT and V6 cars alone. There was a time when most guys didn't know what spring rates they ran.

 

I don't think anyone has been withholding information. It's just very confusing as to what all the cars had with so many powertrains and configurations over so many years with the same platform. Are any of us really going to consider using the standard V6 or 4-banger front sway bars on our V8 cars? I hope not. I've got pictures of my '83 V6 Capri on the track with the 0.94" front sway bar and no rear sway bar that will show you exactly why not if anyone wants to see it. So really, the only consideration would be the sway bars that come on the V8 foxes... ...and not the early ones with the 1" or the 1.06" front sway bar either. With the tendency for the fox Mustangs to understeer, I'm also not sure why you'd want to go with anything but the biggest rear bar in any case. I know some folks run without a rear sway bar, but I also think those are the folks who run a panhard bar with the poor mans 5 link or 3 link or whatever it is. In the case of the rear bars, you absolutely can't tell just by looking with your eye the difference between the .79 and the .83 rear bar. I had to measure them more than once just to make sure I was getting the right results. I wonder how many folks are out there who think they are running the .83 bar and are actually running the .79, or vice-versa?

 

So, the realistic bottom line considering just the fox era and the factory stock rear suspension layout, is that we have a choice of maybe 2 or 3 front factory sway bars and maybe 2 rear bars. It's likely a whole new ball of wax when you add the panhard bar and/or the poor-mans setup, and include the variety of front and rear sway bars offered through the '94-'04 era. The information on the sway bars in the '94-'04 era has me so confused right now, it's going to take me a very long time, if ever, to figure those out. I have yet to come across a complete and completely reliable source of information on them.

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You are right Glenn. I'm sorry.

 

Somehow I think your still pissed.

Not my goal.

Sorry it got under your skin.

Yup still pissed, you are sharp.

It just seems like your goal is to prove the Mustang drivers are unintelligent and can't setup a car.

That is your go-to excuse for everything.

 

How many people even knew these extra bars existed until 1 hour ago?

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How many people even knew these extra bars existed until 1 hour ago?

 

I don't know? Are you saying its my fault you didn't know?

All the bar info I know about my car now, I knew many years before I came to CMC. Should I have been required to forget that info since you didn't know the same info about your car? If I know mine, is it not reasonable for me to expect you to know yours?

 

I never said you didn't know how to set-up a car. I do think there is a gap in knowlege of what parts are available to tune w/.

Surely the performace of my car is not a result of testing w/ all bar sizes and many different spring rates comined w/ those bar sizes - surely it is just the car.

 

Don't take this so personal.

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No Glenn I'm pretty sure hes pissed that you painted with such a broad brush and basically said the Fox guys are either stupid or trying to conceal something but the GM guys are apparently above reproach. In my short time driving with you guys I have found the Ford and GM guys to be equally helpful towards me in trying to figure out my overheating problems and other car teething and driving issues. Remember people can't read inflection through a keyboard. If the statement was reversed Im pretty sure you would be ticked. I've seen you ticked over far less on here.

 

If you need the sway bar sizes for the SN95 chassis here they are before you feel the need to insult the remainder of the Ford guys. And just fyi I didn't know them till earlier this year because it was fairly hard to track down and confirm. A lot of the Mustang forums are crap, lots of info on there but not many facts. And most of the Mustang parts guys on Ebay don't know there are this many differences either in the auctions I have found for take offs.

 

94-95 Cobra F-25mm R-27mm

94-98 GT F-30mm R-24mm

96-98 Cobra F-29mm R- 27mm

94-99 V6 F-27mm R-21mm

99 GT F-28mm R-23mm

00-04 GT F- 27mm R-24mm

99-01 Cobra F-28mm R- ?

00-04 V6 F-25mm R-?

00 Cobra R F-28mm R- ?

01 Bullitt F- 28mm R-?

03-04 Cobra F- 29mm R- ?

03-04 Mach 1 F-28mm R-?

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The Fox Glenn is entertaining for 2012 is mine so I thought I’d stop in to add a thing or two. First off, one would be hard pressed to find anyone competing in CMC willing change to a Fox. You’d also be just as despaired trying to find a Fox driver willing to recommend his buddy to build one. This problem will only get worst and arguing about it changes nothing as I found out. I just gave up and pulled back from the series. Problem is I like the series and my car, pimp wing and all… So I’ve wondered for a couple years how to make it better.

 

Enter Glenn Landrum! Sure he’s an asshole but we’ve all got quirks right… Glenn’s an accomplished driver and he’s got enough set-up knowledge and experience that a season in a Fox could help this issue tremendously. My goal is for Glenn to learn the car and understand where it fares in comparison to what he’s used to. He wants to win; if the car has the potential I’m sure he’ll run the wheels off it to get to the front. If not then I’m as equally certain he’ll figure out what it needs to get there. Either way I expect his input to allow us to move forward and argue about something other than the Fox again.

 

My biggest concern is that he won't want to give it back at season's end.

 

Boudy

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The Fox Glenn is entertaining for 2012 is mine so I thought I’d stop in to add a thing or two. First off, one would be hard pressed to find anyone competing in CMC willing change to a Fox. You’d also be just as despaired trying to find a Fox driver willing to recommend his buddy to build one. This problem will only get worst and arguing about it changes nothing as I found out. I just gave up and pulled back from the series. Problem is I like the series and my car, pimp wing and all… So I’ve wondered for a couple years how to make it better.

 

Enter Glenn Landrum! Sure he’s an asshole but we’ve all got quirks right… Glenn’s an accomplished driver and he’s got enough set-up knowledge and experience that a season in a Fox could help this issue tremendously. My goal is for Glenn to learn the car and understand where it fares in comparison to what he’s used to. He wants to win; if the car has the potential I’m sure he’ll run the wheels off it to get to the front. If not then I’m as equally certain he’ll figure out what it needs to get there. Either way I expect his input to allow us to move forward and argue about something other than the Fox again.

 

My biggest concern is that he won't want to give it back at season's end.

 

Boudy

 

For the record, I've talked with Glenn a total of two times since he lit my ass on fire in July. That's background.

 

While a tremendous offer, Robert, having been around for almost as long as I have, you have to know Glenn wouldn't be able win in that scenario.

 

If he sets lap records at every track, he would be cheating some how. It would be particularly obvious to those out of region finger pointers.

 

If he was a mid-pack slacker, it would be proof that the fox needs 30 more horsepower and drop another 100 pounds.

 

So see, there is no way for him to win. It's just like posting his POV on the internet. 1/2 the folks love it and 1/2 the folks hate it, depending upon if it affects you or not.

 

The lack of trust amongst the racers and the racers to the directors and even the directors towards the racers is at an all-time high.

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The Fox Glenn is entertaining for 2012 is mine so I thought I’d stop in to add a thing or two. First off, one would be hard pressed to find anyone competing in CMC willing change to a Fox. You’d also be just as despaired trying to find a Fox driver willing to recommend his buddy to build one. This problem will only get worst and arguing about it changes nothing as I found out. I just gave up and pulled back from the series. Problem is I like the series and my car, pimp wing and all… So I’ve wondered for a couple years how to make it better.

 

Enter Glenn Landrum! Sure he’s an asshole but we’ve all got quirks right… Glenn’s an accomplished driver and he’s got enough set-up knowledge and experience that a season in a Fox could help this issue tremendously. My goal is for Glenn to learn the car and understand where it fares in comparison to what he’s used to. He wants to win; if the car has the potential I’m sure he’ll run the wheels off it to get to the front. If not then I’m as equally certain he’ll figure out what it needs to get there. Either way I expect his input to allow us to move forward and argue about something other than the Fox again.

 

My biggest concern is that he won't want to give it back at season's end.

 

Boudy

 

For the record, I've talked with Glenn a total of two times since he lit my ass on fire in July. That's background.

 

While a tremendous offer, Robert, having been around for almost as long as I have, you have to know Glenn wouldn't be able win in that scenario.

 

If he sets lap records at every track, he would be cheating some how. It would be particularly obvious to those out of region finger pointers.

 

If he was a mid-pack slacker, it would be proof that the fox needs 30 more horsepower and drop another 100 pounds.

 

So see, there is no way for him to win. It's just like posting his POV on the internet. 1/2 the folks love it and 1/2 the folks hate it, depending upon if it affects you or not.

 

The lack of trust amongst the racers and the racers to the directors and even the directors towards the racers is at an all-time high.

 

I disagree with almost everything you said here Mitch. I don't think people would think Glenn was cheating if he won in the Fox anymore than when he won in a GM product. I don't see the difference. It would just prove what you GM guys have said all along that the Fox is as good as any other car in the series. If he's a mid pack guy in a Fox it will look bad I agree with that but it would be good for the series.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about on the trust deal. I don't see it.

 

 

JJ

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I respect your opinion, Jerry.

 

But what I witnessed at TWS last spring concerning your bumper cover structure, the spiral Michael went into in the sway bar thread, Adam's meltdown in the now edited S197 thread and noone but Lydic from the east is allowed to post on the internet are all symptoms of a lack of trust.

 

If you didn't feel as though you were being singled out, you probably wouldn't said what you said to Glenn and Todd.

 

Michael didn't immediately default to thinking someone was calling him incompetent as a race car driver/tuner based upon his mutual respect and trust.

 

Adam didn't spill his guts simply to clear the air.

 

And Kent doesn't forbid "his guys" to post in order to protect them.

 

I dropped out in July. I had almost zero contact with the series for 4 months. Because I needed to meet Gaary at ECR, I drove out that Friday.

 

Every one was glad handing and all smiles, but after being away for a while, it was so obvious the tension and clicks that have formed.

 

Everyone is cordial ... don't misunderstand. But any time talk of the series, rules, parity, changes ... whatever ... demeanor and dynamic changes.

 

3 or 4 would be chatting it up, an "outsider" would walk up and the conversation immediately changes or just ends.

 

I stood in one place under Dr. Frank's awning and it was eye-opening to just watch the grouping and posturing going on.

 

I have no horse in this race so, I don't post all this detail to point a finger, lay blame or just bitch.

 

I post it to get it out, discuss and get the problems fixed. Today is not the CMC I remember. 05, 06 and 07 was a trememdous time to be involved. Now it's just so much effort.

 

I honestly hope it gets back to its roots.

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I don't think people would think Glenn was cheating if he won in the Fox anymore than when he won in a GM product.

 

If I wanted to act like alot of folks here, I would read into this and be offended that you feel I'm currently cheating in my 4th gen.

 

But, I know what you were trying to say and take it as that, and not in a manner that reflects negatively towards you - no matter the level of "word twisting" required.

 

Look forward to getting this worked out Robert.

Thanks Mitch.

Thanks Robert.

Thanks Jerry.

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