What coil springs to use on a fox?

[ShadowBolt]

I don't think people would think Glenn was cheating if he won in the Fox anymore than when he won in a GM product.

 

If I wanted to act like alot of folks here, I would read into this and be offended that you feel I'm currently cheating in my 4th gen.

 

But, I know what you were trying to say and take it as that, and not in a manner that reflects negatively towards you - no matter the level of "word twisting" required.

 

Look forward to getting this worked out Robert.

Thanks Mitch.

Thanks Robert.

Thanks Jerry.

 

I've never heard anyone say you cheated in your car so I assumed you would never cheat in anything. I thought that is what I said.

 

 

 

JJ

[ShadowBolt]

 

But what I witnessed at TWS last spring concerning your bumper cover structure,

If you didn't feel as though you were being singled out, you probably wouldn't said what you said to Glenn and Todd.

 

3 or 4 would be chatting it up, an "outsider" would walk up and the conversation immediately changes or just ends.

 

I was wrong on the bumper issue. Not about running it (I still think I should be able to) but for jumping Glenn the way I did. I was wong and I have admitted it.

 

I don't get the outsider deal? I have pitted with the same guys since I started racing. Them having the same cars helps when I have issues with mine.

 

I also respect your opinion Mitch.

 

JJ

[CMC#11]

Michael didn't immediately default to thinking someone was calling him incompetent as a race car driver/tuner based upon his mutual respect and trust.

 

Mitch, I feel you took my remarks (and other remarks previously) way out of context. It is impossible to 100% get your point across on the internet. You could have an understanding of what is being typed and every other person out there can still take it a different way.

When I got pissed at Glenn on the sway bar thread that was just coming from a guy that is passionate about this sport, my platform, my car, setup ability, etc. I just feel that Glenn is trying to counter all the discussions that have gone on for years about the fox by pointing out our lack of knowledge in one particular area. Would others do the same? Absolutely!! B/C we are all passionate about this sport!!!

 

We are all going to "politic" for our platforms, it is in our blood. I do however fell that the directors in place and the racers DO have the best interest for the series at heart. I feel Glenn has one of the most level heads out there when it comes to platform equality. I also feel it is the racers responsibility to fight for what they want and share their platform knowledge with all directors to help get the best resolution possible.

That is why Roberts offer to Glenn is so generous. We could learn so much from Glenn (a fast, consistent, seasoned driver) to have more knowledge if the fox is exactly where it needs to be or if some help is needed.

 

Regarding your feelings CMC at its current state vs. previous years:

I don't see it at all. I feel the support and passion throughout the group is at an all time high. Those clumps of people you see sitting together.....they are trying to find the shade. BTW, it was great seeing you at ECR. We hope it is more common next year!

[mitchntx1548534714]

Jerry, its not anything lingering, rather the initial, default response at that moment in time.

 

Had you had 100% confidence that the motives for bringing it up were for moving forward, then your response probably would have been different.

 

Agree?

 

 

Michael, the passion you speak of is a double edged sword. You have valid points and sound arguements to shore up your arguement.

 

Likewise, your competitor has similar justifications.

 

The passion you both have creates the communications gap. And when one set of arguements sways the opinion of the rulesmakers, the other set of equally passionate folks feel slighted.

 

All kinds of reasons bubble to the surface.

 

Remember when we (in Texas) felt that the left coasters were driving the series simply because TonyG was in California and attended/competed in races out there exclusively?

 

Remember how we justified it by pointing out face time with the directors, racers weren't as "evolved" as they were here, etc.?

 

What do you think the chances are that similar conversations aren't taking place today about Texas?

 

Was it true then? Is it true now? Passion coming from two different sides fuels that mistrust.

[Boudy1548534717]

Do Fox guys think the car needs something? Yep!

Do the other camps think the car is fine as is? Yep!

Do Fox guys recommend building one to their buddies? Nope!

Do GM guys recommend building a GM to their buddies? Yep!

 

The key here is that the only confidence out there regarding the Fox being capable comes from those who don't compete in them. 90% (who don't drive them) are confident that the car is fine and the drivers need seat time and set-up knowledge while the other 10% (who do drive them) are confident the car can't cut it as is.

 

Believe it or not, there has been a good driver or two in a Fox before and even some who knew about car set-up. Just not one that other camps would trust if at the end of his trials he concluded the car needed something. Some pull away from the series while others stay and argue. The end result can be summarized in the last few pages of this thread.

 

I see Glenn bridging that gap.

 

If he sets lap records at every track, he would be cheating some how. It would be particularly obvious to those out of region finger pointers.

 

Look up all our track records around the country and tally up platforms and records that are recent and repeatable. To set lap records at every track in a Fox he would indeed have to be cheating or magic. I don't see either coming from Glenn so let's be more realistic about the hypothetical outcome of this.

 

If he was a mid-pack slacker, it would be proof that the fox needs 30 more horsepower and drop another 100 pounds.

 

If he can't get the car past mid-pack then I foresee him finding out why. He's a capable driver and has enough set-up knowledge to tinker with the thing so at some point he'll come to some conclusions. It's unlikely he'll find some overlooked 1/2 degree set-up trick that's been missed for 10 years so those conclusions may end up being concession recommendations. Either way, CMC stands to gain from what Glenn has to ofter this beaten, kicked, and battered horse.

 

As for Glenn winning in this scenario, it's not about Glenn having to win or lose. If he does well, he'll be able to point out why or how. If he can't do well then he'll be able to point out why or how.

 

I'm probably building a new car run CMC in 2012 so I could just move along and not even bother logging in here. However, I believe that would be a disservice to the series. So ask yourself why and the hell would I build a new and donate the car that I've got a fortune in if I truly didn't think the series could gain from it. And before I get accused of posturing, why would I build an new car and posture for the old one?

 

Boudy

[Glenn]

I don't think the lack of recommendations for a Fox are a result of any platform parity issues, but rather the amount of parts required to run upfront w/ one. I feel the same way about the 3rd gen's.

I wouldn't tell a guy to build a 3rd gen..... unless he had all the parts to do so already (chassis/motor). If he had nothing, 4th gen all the way. Same for the Ford camp. SN-95 or 99 is the best route unless you have all the parts already for a Fox.

So Robert - your post above was written w/ an angle towards suporting your case (your POV) about the Fox chassis. It really isn't an accurate statement the way you presented it.

 

 

Are all the platforms pretty close to equal? Yes.

Does it require more effort (money / parts ) to get them (Fox/3rd gen) equal to the rest? Yes.

[Boudy1548534717]

No, I disagree. After a Fox gets all the things required in parts to be what you consider equal, those of us who own and have owned a Fox still don't agree that it's equal. That's what we've been trying to get across since Varner and exactly why I propose you run my car. That way you can shut us the hell up or see for yourself what we already believe.

 

Boudy

 

Edit: Let's also understand that you don't recommend the Fox due to parts laying around and other reasons. Those of us who own a Fox don't recommend them due to platform parity issues.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Guest

[Glenn]

Tell me why a Fox if not the same as an SN-95 once the Fox has all the "good" parts?

What I'm hearing is the guys in a Fox are better drivers than those in anything else and the on track results are a result of the Fox drivers driving w/ one hand behind thier backs.

 

[Boudy1548534717]

Tell me why a Fox if not the same as an SN-95 once the Fox has all the "good" parts?

 

Factually, I can't. I'm told there is a wheelbase difference, I know of a track width difference and I don't know anyone who can testify how the two front ends compare after we bastardize it with SN-95 lower control arms. You are also aware that once the control arms are changed the sway geometry goes all to hell. Frankly, I'm hoping you can help to figure it all out.

 

What I'm hearing is the guys in a Fox are better drivers than those in anything else and the on track results are a result of the Fox drivers driving w/ one hand behind thier backs.

 

I'm not sure what you're hearing. I can tell you what myself and others I know have said though. The Fox is hard to drive. It's a handful at best. The belief is that a Fox driver getting on track results is working harder than those in anything else. Consequently it's also believed that if a Fox driver capable of said results were to pilot any of the others he could far surpass his previous results. For what it's worth, I've also offered Mr. Mosty my new car in 2012 to prove or disprove this point. He's still undecided.

 

Boudy

[BADVENM]

I'll be one of those who is upgrading their Fox to an SN95 front suspension in the next few months. Im also finally getting rid of the rear drum brakes as well as another few things. Im anxious to find out the results.

[MHISSTC]

90%... ...are confident... ...the drivers need seat time and set-up knowledge while the other 10%... ...are confident the car can't cut it as is.

 

And for the really unfortunate ones like me, that adds up to being 100% applicable.

 

* I daily-drive foxes because I like them.

* I build fox CMC cars because that's what I like, I'm comfortable in them, my knowledge base favors them, and I have lots of spare parts... ...even though I'm lacking a lot of the "upgrade" parts to be competitive.

* I race fox CMC cars because it's stupid-fun.

 

Folks currently in or who are considering entering CMC need to regularly and objectively evaluate their mechanical and monetary abilities and balance those with the subjective coolness and fun factors, along with understanding that concessions and compromises will be made along the way.

 

If you are staring out with an older chassis, expect to need to make performance upgrades. If you are starting out with a brandy-new chassis, expect to find ways to limit performance.

 

I think it's been said before, but if we're doing the rules right, everyone feels like they are getting hosed while the other guy is getting the advantage. I think that's what we're seeing now, so we must be doing something right.

[AllZWay]

............if we're doing the rules right, everyone feels like they are getting hosed while the other guy is getting the advantage. I think that's what we're seeing now, so we must be doing something right.

 

That is well said.

[Glenn]

90%... ...are confident... ...the drivers need seat time and set-up knowledge while the other 10%... ...are confident the car can't cut it as is.

 

And for the really unfortunate ones like me, that adds up to being 100% applicable.

 

* I daily-drive foxes because I like them.

* I build fox CMC cars because that's what I like, I'm comfortable in them, my knowledge base favors them, and I have lots of spare parts... ...even though I'm lacking a lot of the "upgrade" parts to be competitive.

* I race fox CMC cars because it's stupid-fun.

 

Folks currently in or who are considering entering CMC need to regularly and objectively evaluate their mechanical and monetary abilities and balance those with the subjective coolness and fun factors, along with understanding that concessions and compromises will be made along the way.

 

If you are staring out with an older chassis, expect to need to make performance upgrades. If you are starting out with a brandy-new chassis, expect to find ways to limit performance.

 

I think it's been said before, but if we're doing the rules right, everyone feels like they are getting hosed while the other guy is getting the advantage. I think that's what we're seeing now, so we must be doing something right.

 

Keep this shit up and you will find yourself with a Director shirt on at the race weekends!

[MHISSTC]

Keep this shit up and you will find yourself with a Director shirt on at the race weekends!

 

You're going to have to sell it better than that.

 

I like having friends.

[BADVENM]

Speaking of directors, why do only 1 or 2 or 3 ever chime in on the issues at hand?

 

 

I have MHISSTC under contract, one that prevents him from leaving...ever

[Glenn]

Speaking of directors, why do only 1 or 2 or 3 ever chime in on the issues at hand?

 

 

I have MHISSTC under contract, one that prevents him from leaving...ever

 

I wish I knew the answer to that. Some of those Directors who don't post frequently, look down upon those of us who do. I guess it is a difference in philosophy.

[stangracer88]

I was reading this thread and another about springs for a Mustang as I feel I need to make a change. I currently have Bilstein shocks/struts and progessive springs. I was thinking of just starting with the Global West setup, but noticed someone posted a site bluecoilspring.com and was interested. However, I didn't quite understand some of the terms they used such as "Free Length" and it appeared that I would need 5.5" OD.

Does free length mean they would have to be modified to fit my 1988 Mustang GT?

I'm not a mechanic and will have to have a shop put in springs for me, so would it be "safer" to just get the setup from Global West or ???

Thnx for any input.

[doug1548534725]

Free length is the length of the spring uncompressed. Figure out how much weight is going to be on it, and what the spring rate is, and you'll know the final compressed length at rest.

 

I would not recommend progressive springs for a race car at all. They're ok for comfort on the street, but not at the track.

 

I've got blue coil on my car. The nice thing about them is that you can pick off the list which spring you want, and they've got it. If you want to adjust, you just buy the next one off the list. You'll have a hard time going to GlobalWest and saying "I need 100 lbs/inch more, can you give me the next one?".

 

I do not know any Mustang-specific details about what will fit and what won't.

[CMC#11]

What progressive springs do you run, and what rate are they? While not 100% ideal, they will get you 95% of the way there.

 

If you have progressive rate springs that are where you want spring rate related, I would make the switch to a linear spring one of the last ones you do. It just doesn't make "that much" of a difference on a Mustang.

I made the switch to linear rate springs after 4 years of racing and the difference was not extreme at all.

Now if everything else is completely maxed out on your car then I would definitely go for the change.

[stangracer88]

I don't know the rates of the springs, I didn't think about rates when they were installed. The shop that put them on (probably 4-5yrs ago) said the whole setup of struts/shocks/springs were from Bilstein and had a liftetime warranty. I told them I intended to do track days and supposedly they were heavy duty, but again don't know for sure.

The last time I raced the car (at Hastings) I had Dave B run a few laps for his impression of the handling. His comment was that he felt he was slower around the track by 3-4 seconds due to nose diving on braking and then had to be slow on the throttle out of the corners.

It has camber plates which I noticed did help and took off the rear sway bar which really made it a neutral (to me) in the corners. Has a bolt in cage, that is about it.

The car's last dyno was 225hp 290tq and if I can get the gt40 intake installed before dyno day I might push 10hp more, but that's about it for this year.

So, my thought for the only improvement due to budget are springs and live with the shocks and keep the pretty much stock other components.

My goal is to stay with the other folks as much as possible and keep my position in the corners, especially at the short tracks, something I couldn't do in 2010.

[CMC#11]

If it is nose diving that bad then I'm sure it has some sort of aftermarket street spring on it.

I would recommend just putting on H&R Super Race springs (the white ones) on all 4 corners as a starting point. They are progressive rates and IIRC the spring rates are around 950/250.

This would be a good starting point before you start playing w/ shocks, sway bars, etc.

[stangracer88]

Thank you!

[Al F.]

Geez Glenn, stop trying to pick a fight. Nobody looks down on anybody due to the volume of posts they make. Some of us are internet nerds, some of us are just nerds.

[Glenn]

Geez Glenn, stop trying to pick a fight. Nobody looks down on anybody due to the volume of posts they make. Some of us are internet nerds, some of us are just nerds.

 

Why you gotta bring up old shit?

[Al F.]

lol I'm old now, I forget things