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Does anyone have a problem with this battery?


MHISSTC

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We're serious about using this group 8D battery in the CMC car:

 

829_3.jpg

 

According to the discussion in a related thread I started about making weight in the car, I believe it was determined it is a legal battery. The stock group 56 sized battery weighs 32 lbs. The group 8D battery weighs 117 lbs. That is not a typo. The group 8D battery weighs 85 lbs more than the stock battery found in an '86 Mustang LX 5.0.

 

We made plans with our fabricator to weld together a support frame for this battery along with making steel straps that would bolt down to the supports and anchor the battery within a plastic battery box. The box we were planning on using is one of those plastic trunk boxes/lockers that is sold at Wal Mart.

 

To reiterate, that is four bolts and two steel straps anchoring this battery to a welded steel frame within a vented plastic box. We planned it to be beefier than some of the methods folks are using to anchor their ballast.

 

Although it seems our idea is valid within the rules of CMC, we have received an indication that there may be issues with it given the weight of the battery (obviously) and the amount of acid it contains.

 

We wouldn't have bought the battery if we thought it was going to be "illegal", but we don't want anyone to have any issues with it either.

 

Thoughts?

 

Scott

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8.10. Battery

The battery may be relocated. Batteries located inside the driver’s compartment shall be securely fastened down to the car and shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a marine type battery case. The battery must be of the same type, group size (i.e. 24F), and voltage as originally equipped, or heavier, and may not be modified. Spiral cell batteries such as Optimas are highly recommended. The battery must be securely held with a suitable metal battery hold down. The positive terminals on both the battery and any remotely mounted starter solenoids must be covered with a non-conductive shield.

 

I see why the confusion. The above highlighted seems to be contradictive huh?

I would interpret as must use the same type/size but if it happens to be heavier, that's ok,( i.e. not legal. )

Could make a box out of 1/2" plate

 

jb

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Jeff,

 

Thanks for the feedback. So what you are saying, according to your interpretation of the rule, is the portion of the rule highlighted in red would be more clear if it was written to say something like...

 

"The battery must be of the same type and group size as the original battery installed in the car by the manufacturer and may not be modified." Period. I believe "type" means lead/acid for all CMC elligible cars ever made. The "voltage" and "or heavier" stipulation can be left out with the reason being if an original group size battery is used, the voltage will be the same and the size and weight will be the same (or very, very close given manufacturing tolerances and original equipment replacement variations across brands). Correct? Unfortunately, if you do follow the rule like that, you may omit the some of the Optima type batteries that are recommended. Optima doesn't make a different battery for every group size that has ever been installed by an original manufacturer. Instead they make something close and then have little plastic adapter that snaps onto the base of the battery. (Try finding an Optima that's identical to the factory battery in a '96 Cobra.) I think what the rule is trying to prevent is someone installing one of those miniature light weight dry cell *racing* batteries, although given that we can already move it around, but are limited to the passenger compartment forward of the main hoop as an alternative location, I'm not sure that makes sense either...but that's for another discussion.

 

My interpretation, and everyone elses I asked until we actually got the bigger battery, was a more literal one that indicated we could use an unmodified battery that was the same type, group size, and voltage as was originally equipped in the car, or heavier. You can see we clearly went the or heavier route.

 

Scott

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8.10. Battery

The battery may be relocated. Batteries located inside the driver’s compartment shall be securely fastened down to the car and shall be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis in a marine type battery case. The battery must be of the same type, group size (i.e. 24F), and voltage as originally equipped, or heavier, and may not be modified. Spiral cell batteries such as Optimas are highly recommended. The battery must be securely held with a suitable metal battery hold down. The positive terminals on both the battery and any remotely mounted starter solenoids must be covered with a non-conductive shield.

 

I see why the confusion. The above highlighted seems to be contradictive huh?

I would interpret as must use the same type/size but if it happens to be heavier, that's ok,( i.e. not legal. )

Could make a box out of 1/2" plate

 

jb

 

the word "or" looks like it's a choice ... same type as OEM or heavier ...

 

Sentance structure could be better ...

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although given that we can already move it around, but are limited to the passenger compartment forward of the main hoop as an alternative location, I'm not sure that makes sense either...but that's for another discussion.

What makes you say that? The rule says the battery may be relocated. Period. No stipulation is made on location. A battery is not pure ballast any more than surplus fuel is.

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The "may not be modified" is there to cover gutting a normal size battery and putting one of those little cheaters inside.

 

Optimas are legal because of specific wording added.

 

Tons of folks here have them mounted as far aft as possible.

 

Contact TG for a definitive ruling.

 

My money is on it's not in the spirit. I'm never wrong, once I thought I was.

 

jb

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although given that we can already move it around, but are limited to the passenger compartment forward of the main hoop as an alternative location, I'm not sure that makes sense either...but that's for another discussion.

What makes you say that? The rule says the battery may be relocated. Period. No stipulation is made on location. A battery is not pure ballast any more than surplus fuel is.

 

Or subframe connetors made from soild bar stock

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Nope the rule means to say that you have to run the same group size ,type,etc.

The reason we put in "heavier" is so no one went out there and bought some crazy$$ battery that was 10 lbs but was the same group size.

Basically you have to run what came stock in type and size.

Thats my take, but lets see what the other directors say here.

Tony Guaglione

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I would be concerned about the pure safety aspect of anchoring something that heavy. Most of us and our gear weigh that much and there is a lot that goes into properly anchoring the seat we sit in to support us. Alan Blaine of Blaine Fabrication did the prep on my car and made his own seat mounting system for my Kirkey Deluxe RR seat, so I'd be safer than with the stock mounts and not depend so much on the flimsy floorpan. We also have our belts holding us in to complete that whole safety system. It is hard to get us loose if there is a crash!

 

To properly anchor something that heavy and that shape it would seem you would have to reinforce the floorpan and in probably other structural ways too, tying it into the rollcage, even building it it's own rollcage! A weight nightmare, and a much bigger safety nightmare if this sucker ever got loose.

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Agreed 100% with you on that Julie!

If the battery is being used as ballast then I don't like it for those reasons.

Why not just use the ballast the correct way with mounting it with thru bolts and plates?

Tony Guaglione

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150 pounds of ballast still keeps us under 3150 pounds. If I weighed anything like a "normal" person we wouldnt have these weight issues.

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i'm w/ Tony on this. same group size must be used.

 

Well then, it looks like three things have to happen:

 

1. The rule will have to be rewritten to provide some clarification.

 

2. We'll have to go back to our original battery and have to look for a way to gain weight somewhere else.

 

3. Somebody better start compiling a list of all the different varieties of battery group sizes that went into all of these pony cars 'cause darn tootin' if somebody complains about us being underweight while we're still underpowered, I'll be looking a little closer at some folks' batteries. No, I'm not volunteering to compile the list either.

 

It sure would have been nice to have these responses and feedback the first time I asked about it.

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although given that we can already move it around, but are limited to the passenger compartment forward of the main hoop as an alternative location, I'm not sure that makes sense either...but that's for another discussion.

What makes you say that? The rule says the battery may be relocated. Period. No stipulation is made on location. A battery is not pure ballast any more than surplus fuel is.

 

I just reread everyting pertinent and I have no idea where I pulled that one from.

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3. Somebody better start compiling a list of all the different varieties of battery group sizes that went into all of these pony cars 'cause darn tootin' if somebody complains about us being underweight while we're still underpowered, I'll be looking a little closer at some folks' batteries. No, I'm not volunteering to compile the list either.

 

It sure would have been nice to have these responses and feedback the first time I asked about it.

 

Not only the batteries but the placement of them in the car.

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underpowered or not, bring a legal car to the track.

i make 216 hp and finish most races at 3250.

 

you must realize the intent of these rules. there was in no way that the battery rule implies that a battery of the type you showed us would be legal for the purpose of legal ballast. theres a reason the ballast rule has a placement limit.

dont try and outthink or outbuild guys in CMC. this is purely a talent class, not a fabricators / wallet class. bring a straight up built car and bring your A game.

see ya at the track.

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If the battery is being used as ballast then I don't like it for those reasons.

Why not just use the ballast the correct way with mounting it with thru bolts and plates?

Tony Guaglione

 

I've surrendered to the fact that folks are going to have issues with our battery, even though it is legal under the rules as they are currently written. So, the following is not me arguing, I'm just exploring all elements of the issue.

 

Our big battery is being used as a battery to start the car. A side benefit of using a larger battery is that it adds additional cranking amps and weight to the car...kind of like a side benefit of a well constructed cage is chassis stiffening. If I add more bars to the cage that will also add weight to the car. Would that be considered ballast too? A battery has a useful purpose other than to exist purely to add weight. Ballast serves no other purpose in the car except to add weight.

 

As Dave said, even with the maximum allowable 150lbs of ballast and a full tank of gas, we are substancially below the minimum weight. Burning off 1/4 tank of gas during a race just makes it worse.

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dont try and outthink or outbuild guys in CMC. this is purely a talent class, not a fabricators / wallet class. bring a straight up built car and bring your A game.

see ya at the track.

 

Agreed. And our intent is to bring a legal car to the track. Buying a heavier battery was for us a cheaper solution to buying ballast at $2/lb. Mounted safely and correctly, which is what we had planned, it would have saved us money AND given us a legal car.

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We've even gone as far as reinstalling parts of the car back on the car such as front turn signals, e-brake handle, horns, etc just to try and get the weight up. The items I just listed only add about 7 pounds. We could fill the windshield washer reservoir with water and reinstall that but thats only another few pounds. The passenger seat is 47 pounds, could that be reinstalled with the factory bolts?

 

We really are seriously under weight and the 150 pounds of legal ballast still wont cut it to be legal.

 

Our 146 or 148 horsepower Mustang is doing really well in the Rocky Mountain Region (4th) given the lack of suspension upgrades (only springs), stock brakes (except pads) and rookie driver (me). Our goal is to get to the top of the ranks legally but its rather hard to do right now and somewhat frustrating as we try and follow the rules as they are currently written.

 

Please understand, MHISSTC and I are by no means trying to out spend anyone or accumulate points that arent rightfully ours. I/we have no problem not getting any points because we arent legal but getting legal is rather difficult right now.

 

We just want to be legal, have fun and see where it goes from there

 

We appreciate all the feedback on this issue. Thanks!

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please explain to me why you guys are having such a hard time making weight when all the other Fox cars i've seen have no issue.

you are including the driver in you min weights, right?

 

additional cage bars over the minimum required can be used. BUT read the CCR's and CMC rules regarding the cage. chassis stiffing is not the porpose of the cage so be carefull here.

 

i see no problem adding the stock passenger seat back in, but it points me back to my first comment in this post. why are you guys having such a problem? we have a couple guys here in Fox cars they clock in at 130-150 lbs. are you an ex horse jockey?

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We're getting really close. Our weight before adding any ballast and with our OEM battery is 2975 with 3/4 tank after a race and our fully suited and geared up primary driver who is 6ft and 110lbs. With 150 lbs of ballast we still come in at 3125. I guess if we could come up with 25 lbs of mounting hardware for the ballast we'd be OK, but just barely. I guess we could add crazy stuff like the seat belts back in, but I just hate the idea of stuff that serves no purpose.

 

With me as backup driver, we don't have nearly the same problem as I weigh 170lbs, but we still have to use nearly all of the allowable 150lbs of ballast.

 

The stupid thing is we did absolutely noting special to make this car light. Heck, it's even a hatchback, which should be heavier than a coupe.

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Use the legal ballast, 3 fifty pound bricks with 3 grade 8 bolts per brick with steel plates under the mounting locations. That's 3 steel plates, nine large bolts, many washers, nine lock washers and all legal, techs love the ballast well secured.

Now build a steel battery box and buy the type 24 battery that weighs the most, like a 57 lb deep cycle or whatever. The battery box alone will weight 20 lbs and use plates under it too!

Make use of all this weigh, corner weigh your car and place the weigh where YOU want it, probably somewhere rear of the balance line and near the rr tire.

What did that big leaded battery cost?

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6 ft tall and 110 lbs!!!!!!!! are you kidding me? when i was 18 i was 6'2" and was 150 and was a total bean pole. there was no place to remove 40 lbs from me.

does this guy fart helium?

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Now you have a better understanding of our difficulty making weight. He's not built like your typical middle aged overweight CMC driver who's trying to recapture more youthful days gone by.

 

Coming up with ways to fit both Dave as the primary driver at 6'/110lbs and me as the backup driver at 5'7"/165lbs (the typical middle aged overweight CMC driver trying to recapture more youthful days gone by) has been difficult, but not impossible. Luckily we both have the same length torso so we can use the same harness mounting locations. I just have to wedge my fat behind into the seat and stretch my arms and legs a little while his knees and elbows are in a little closer.

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