Future Spec Engines

[comeback kid]

In a couple of years Chevrolet will have a new Camaro out that will have a 400 HP (SAE) LS3 engine.

With the understanding that the Directors of CMC would like to have all cars under one set of rules and under one banner, are we looking at possible spec engines from the manufacturers down the line?

With the LS3 in mind, GMPP offers a couple of different options.

Part # 88958604 is a first Gen Block and has 400 hp and 400 ft/lbs. of torque, using 9.6:1 compression ratio, and currently costs $ 5,499.95 through Summit.

Part # 19165484is based on the LS2 and also available as a carburated engine that has 400 hp and 400 ft lbs of torque. it uses 10.9:1 compression ratio and through Summit, costs $ 6,794.99.

Ford Racing has a couple of options also.

Part # M-6007-Z351SR is a 9:1 CR 351 cui engine with 400 hp and 375 ft lbs. of torque.

Part # M-6007-347NST is a 10:1 CR 347 cui engine with 405 hp. The Torque figure was not shown on Ford Racing's website.

The cost for both (according to Ford Racing) is $ 7,700.

The moduler engines where priced very high in my opinion for the series.

An example is the Ford Cammer 5.0. rated at 400/400, with a 11:1 CR, but costs over $ 29,000.

The base V-8 for the latest mustangs are rated at 300 hp and 320 ft lbs. of torque.

The Windsor and the 302 blocks I know fit in the newer Mustangs (1994- 2003), I am not sure about the 2004 and later.

I did not get too far into specifics because this post is just to start a conversation and gather input from a member's/ competitor point of view to see what others are thinking.

Take it as you wish, my opinion is simply this.

I like the direction of CMC and I feel the "keep it simple, and only allow modifications to even the performace between the two models" and "keep it as low cost as possible" is what attracts others. I am not saying that is the exact philosiphy from the Directors.

There was a post about the ECMs of injected cars on this board. It got me thinking about as technology changes, what can we do do keep all generations of the two models competitiveness close.

I think a change for the Spec Engines, and the updating of the older cars is a forgone conclusion, isn't it?

Personally, I would feel comfortable with a new Spec Engine for the Series starting in a couple of years.

If we were to allow the updating of the older cars, it would allow the new cars to be used without the restrictor plates, and we should not have to mess with the "black boxes". Research would be needed to see the hp levels at the rear wheels with the emissiom parts on and operating compared with the current emmisionless set-ups without the restrictor plates.

Maybe I am going out on a limb here, but I would like to see everyone, no matter what model generation they run, under one CMC banner.

[bsim]

"Future looking" is definitely a good thing Todd. Just remember, for this conversation, that CMC is part of the American Iron banner. I would expect the 400hp cars to come into play in AI before they trickle down to CMC.

 

Personally, I don't see the point of putting an LS3 into a 3rd gen, because after 20+ years there's going to be a huge difference in chassis improvements as well.

 

Maybe we also think about a CMC "Vintage" for foxes and 3rd gens? I dunno, just kinda brain dumping.

[Lady in Nomex]

I think a "vintage" division might be a good thing to save folks $ if there are a lot of the older cars still around. I think we have to go year by year on that kinda thing. Could make racing more affordable to folks this way.

[Richard Pryor1548534703]

No need for a vintage designation; there will always be plenty of parts to keep building and rebuilding the cars. Look at SCCA where there are still some MGA, BugEye Sprite and Lotus 7 race cars going at it..heck they're from the '60's and we're talking at least 20 year newer cars....and for the future...surely the V6 2010 Camaro will find a place in CMC with minor adjustments...horsepower for that ride has been bandied in the 210-240 realm for different "small" motors for the economy models...sounds like CMC specs to me...RP

[comeback kid]

The "Vintage" thing might work.

I to was brain dumping.

If I really wanted to put a new gen small black in my 83, i would have and gone to AI. But I like CMC and all ready have the engine about done for it. Still looking for a used one that is correct.

I just need to find a Performer Manifold without the freaking EGR hole.

Everyone I have found has been the EGR version, I even have one.

Anybody have the currect used Edelbrock Performer Manifold out there?

[bsim]

Along similar "future thinking" in regards to the present, the pickings for LT1 crate motors is pretty slim, but Mr. Lucky Nick got excellent numbers from a junkyard motor...

 

So, LT1s may be replaced by LS1s (if the pocket book allows for crate motors).

[Glenn]

LT1's are getting very hard to findin good shape. heads are ever harder to find.

the down side to swapping in an LS1 is you need to swap T-56's too and the weight penalty a LS1 gets in CMC-2. 3360 is crazy.

[Redding CMCer]

I only hope that there is still a CMC for the older cars like my 82 3rd gen. (and who are you calling "Vintage"?). The numbers you stated for the possible motor choices like $5&6large is totally out of my budget. $6,000.00 is my budget for nearly 3 years. I just want to have somewhere to race and someone to race against. I don't need more horsepower. (More torque maybe). I know there is going to be a lot of dialog regarding this issue, however, there are still those of us racing CMC that do not have the funds to rebuild a motor every other race let alone every year. The reason I chose this series was it is grass roots racing and I think the directors have done a masterful job in keeping CMC affordable even to guys like me who don't have all the money in the world but still want to compete and be somewhat competitive. My car may never wear a winner's sticker on it's window...but I am still having fun...doing something I have wanted to do since I was a teenager, (which was many, many years ago), and hanging out with a bunch of really great people. I tend to think this may be a difficult job for the directors but give them time and I trust they will do the right thing. My hat is off to them for their hard work. Gary

[Tony G]

Thanks Gary,and I back your thoughts 100%.

CMC will never run away with what it is and how it started.

Tony Guaglione

[King Matt1548534716]

This conversation is extremely premature in many regards. CMC is not purely showroom stock racing where there is a goal to keep pace with current production models. The cars we race will remain extremely viable platforms for years, even decades to come.

[Glenn]

Todd- most all CMC cars i know of cost what your "SPEC" engine packages cost. i ran all of 2005/06 w/ a $800 LT1 w/ 60K on it. i only rebuilt it out of fear of it failing durring my Championship run in 2007. that turned out to be a mistake as i had alot of problems w/ it for a few events after that.

my point is, anything more than a OEM rebuild or a 100K or less junk yard pull is overkill in CMC.

[ls168camaro]

I don't think the conversation it too premature. Here in Texas we are already discussing what the future holds with respect to merging CMC/CMC2 or keeping them separate. It would be nice to hear some of the possibilities of what the directors see happening in the future. Since California has had the most participation in CMC2 I would like to hear any thoughts on the differences and possible changes that could be in store. Such as we are looking at the possibility of cutting power/weight here or adding there. Another area I see as a potential issue is the upgrading/downgrading of the brake packages.

 

Todd-thanks for all the time you put into the post. I understand you are comparing it to a car that makes alot more power than probably any of the AI guys? I like the V6 possibility. I think spec engine options could be great for the series. I believe there are many cheaper options with more reasonable power levels. I think these would be a better alternative to many of the costly and problematic rebuilds. They maybe a few hundred dollars more than a rebuild but getting a brand new engine from Ford/GM could definitely be worth it.

 

Lastly, I hope any changes are made for the good of the series as a whole and not just one persons issues.

Bryan

[comeback kid]

Remember I only brought this up based on the power figures being offered with the new 2010 Camaro with the V-8. I am sure there is plenty of room in the engine compartment to backdate the chassis with an older small block.

The new V-6's are running close to what we are.

The 3.5 L is about 220 Hp (SAE) and the 3.6 L offered in the 2010 Camaro LT is suppose to be around 300 hp (SAE). So the answer is probably right there in front of us with using the V-6's with the 2010 Camaro.

As to Bryan's remarks about the CMC2 cars, I wonder if the drivers' of the fourth gen cars like to get "uncorked"?

There are cheaper options from both manufacturers, these are your base replacement engines. They are all around $ 3,000 from GM and Ford.

Unless it gets decided to allow the 80's Pony cars to go with more horsepower, there will be a CMC, and CMC2.

From the sounds of it, some of the Fourth Gen F-body drivers are running into reliability issues with their LS1 (350 hp (SAE)) and LS2 (400hp (SAE)) powered cars being restricted and having to modify their emmisions set-up. I have not heard much from the 300hp LT1 drivers.

And again the answer to the CMC and CMC2 question may be there in front of us. Run both, CMC for lower hp cars and CMC2 for the higher hp cars.

Change the rules in CMC 2 to require to run emmisions but allow aftermarket upgrades (emmisions/exhaust) that are within reason, and take out the restrictors.

Also allow for people that want to race in CMC2 to update their cars to CMC2 specs. This may cause competitors that are running in SCCA A-sedan and MWC American GrandSport to jump ship sort of speak.

The Older AS and AGS cars are not up to par with AI, but to powerful for CMC.

AGS and older AS cars run 5.0L with 10.5 compression ratio, max .500" lift cam and the Edelbrock Performer RPM (1500-6500 RPM) manifold. They are allowed to balance and blue print the engines, run 1.6 " exhaust valves and 1 5/8" headers. They also use the Holly 4776 600 cfm carb. There are obviously more details on mods that allow them to bring the 302 cui and 305 cui engines to EFI/4.6L and 350 cui power levels.

I personnally think CMC2 is here to stay due to cui sizes and horsepower levels of the newer cars. Newer model cars are more and likely will have to compete in stock engine trim. Costs would stay low with this train of thought.

I made this one long also, sorry about that.

[ls168camaro]

Todd-this is also what I thought about for the 3rd Gen GM guys-http://www.crateenginedepot.com/store/350-Crate-Engine-290-HP-HO-12499529-P824C53.aspx

I think trying to incorporate the new Camaro with the power will be interesting but is probably 15 years away. It is now 6 years since the last Camaro was made and 10 years since the LS1 was introduced and we are only now allowing it to run and seeing them on track. Yet we still don't know how things will be integrated so it doesn't seem things move to fast. Glenn makes a good point that the SCCA T2 cars have a definite lifespan and after that they become candicates for CMC. Thats where my car came from.

[doug1548534725]

The new V-6's are running close to what we are.

The 3.5 L is about 220 Hp (SAE) and the 3.6 L offered in the 2010 Camaro LT is suppose to be around 300 hp (SAE).

 

Heck, the *old* v6s are running close to what we are. The supercharged 3800 Series II makes 240hp and 280 ft/lbs, and that was 10+ years ago. The NA ones were no slouches, either. I always thought the smaller engine would be something fun to do in a fourth-gen, and I really don't see a reason why it's not allowed except for rules simplicity.

[doug1548534725]

I think trying to incorporate the new Camaro with the power will be interesting but is probably 15 years away. It is now 6 years since the last Camaro was made and 10 years since the LS1 was introduced and we are only now allowing it to run and seeing them on track.

 

It's only been 3 years since the new Mustang has come out, and there's a couple of those out there. It seems to me that as the series gets more and more popular, there's going to be more people that want to run a purpose-built "new" race car, which means less lag time from the showroom to the track. I don't think it's too soon at all to be talking about it. Honestly, I'm more worried about the new Camaros having independent rear suspension and a brand-new chassis with 7 years of improvements, which will be pretty fundamental changes compared to what's running now. Horsepower and Torque are easy to compare. Chassis and suspension are not.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Guest

[Glenn]

Mitch and myself asked if we could run a V-6 4th gen in CMC. we were told no.

i also had originally planned to run my 4th gen w/ a 91-92 3rd gen TPI motor and 5 speed. i was also told no.

i also think a V-6 4th gen thats a 'vert would be a very good car.

[bsim]

Heh - I'm not the only one thinking "El Camino" for the next build!

[rsmith350]

Another issue with a "spec" GM crate engine is that GM is famous for severely under rating their engines. Some one dyno'ed a 572 awhile back that is rated at 620 HP..........dyno said 700

[roadracerwhite]

I have a couple points;

 

First, if I have to buy a crate engine, I am outa here. I switched to CMC to cut down on the amount of money spent on the racecar to be competitive. I could build 3 engines for what one of those costs.

CMC is more like a spec class to race f-bodies vs the Mustangs. So far I love it.

 

Secondly, I don't see many of us here in the midwest wanting to buy a new 2010 Camaro or 05+ Mustang and turn it into a CMC racecar. If you have that kind of money you are in the wrong organization, you should be racing in Grand Am. For me there is no budget for a new '10 Camaro or even a ls1 pwered 4th gen, and I don't see the need. And frankly I don't see the parts for any of the current cars beeing that hard to find to justify this. If anything the parts are getting cheaper, I saw a running 95 Camaro LT1 6 sp for sale for 1500 bucks on another forum, what was funny is that the ad didn't list it as being rare or hard to find.

 

Lastly, I don't really want the cars going up in power that much, more horse power means better brakes and better rear ends, etc.

 

Lets not go the way of AS and have screwed up rules just to allow the newer cars in because "what if" somebody wants to build one.

[mitchntx1548534714]

I have a couple points;

 

First, if I have to buy a crate engine, I am outa here. I switched to CMC to cut down on the amount of money spent on the racecar to be competitive. I could build 3 engines for what one of those costs.

CMC is more like a spec class to race f-bodies vs the Mustangs. So far I love it.

 

Secondly, I don't see many of us here in the midwest wanting to buy a new 2010 Camaro or 05+ Mustang and turn it into a CMC racecar. If you have that kind of money you are in the wrong organization, you should be racing in Grand Am. For me there is no budget for a new '10 Camaro or even a ls1 pwered 4th gen, and I don't see the need. And frankly I don't see the parts for any of the current cars beeing that hard to find to justify this. If anything the parts are getting cheaper, I saw a running 95 Camaro LT1 6 sp for sale for 1500 bucks on another forum, what was funny is that the ad didn't list it as being rare or hard to find.

 

Lastly, I don't really want the cars going up in power that much, more horse power means better brakes and better rear ends, etc.

 

Lets not go the way of AS and have screwed up rules just to allow the newer cars in because "what if" somebody wants to build one.

 

I won't disagree with anything you posted with a couple exceptions.

 

LT1/TPI parts are definitely getting cheaper ...

 

- they are worn out

- no market

- better platforms

 

That $1500 car was a 140K mile car. How long do you suspect the motor to last? The trans? Clutch? It's cheap for a reason ...

 

Have you tried to find unported LT1 F-Car heads that are uncut and "unwarped"? I have 4 sets of LT1 heads at home, 3 of them unuseable for CMC because of the warpage. Cutting them to get them flat so a head gasket will seal raises the compression to unacceptable levels and requires some shaving of the intake to get a good seal. The 4th set is an unknown, still bolted to a trashed motor.

 

You are correct ... the parts are getting cheaper ... scrap meal cheap.

 

Addressing the 2010 Camaro in 2008 preempts a knee-jerk reaction to the rules to find a place to make them fit.

 

I agree that CMC needs to be careful and not go by the way of AS. By the same token, we don't want it to go by the way of Spec RX7 either.

 

No one is advocating CMC become a mega-dollar series. That would kill the "grassroots" aspect of CMC. Many are advocating that the series evolve to keep it fresh in the eyes of the public and series sponsors.

 

Hawk and Carbotech aren't gona support the series and the racers if they only sell brake pads to 200 cars nationwide.

 

We tried to get Lou Gigliotti of LG Motorsports to help support the series and his comment was "the platform is dead. why would I continue to market products to a platform that is no longer made and 75% saturated with performance parts?"

 

Lou won World Challenge Championships in a 4th gen Camaro and has been a HUGE help to LAW Motorsports getting us to where we are today.

 

But, he's also a very astute business man. He has to be in order to stay solvent for 20+ years in the performance parts market.

 

You are spot on about power levels. A well built CMC car should not have any mechanical issues at current power levels. Most are at or below street trim and vastly reduced weight. Drivelines are not taxed. A SBF and a SBC should last forever at 5K if you keep them cool and keep them lubed.

[comeback kid]

RRW,

You have very good points, and it is my bad for using a crate engine as the example for the "Spec Engine" for the purpose of this discussion.

The factory crate engines I looked into for this post has the build information available, so one could copy it at lower cost.

My current build will cost me close to $ 2,000.00 with me doing the labor except machine work.

The following are the parts that are used in my engine: crankshaft (thanks Bob D.-mine was toast), my connecting rods (which are now reconditioned), Holley 4776 ($125), power steering pump, HEI distributor housing.

I am still trying to locate a used 2101 manifold but I am not having much luck. Everything I have seen on E-Bay is the EGR version. I have one of those, but I can not run it.

All of the rest of the parts are new.

If someone needed to start from scratch and have a engine shop put it all together, it will be $ 3,000 anyways.

Some folks here have good luck with salvage yard engines, I just do not take the chance.

There is always the possibility that someone may buy a new car and decide to go racing. Why not be preparred before hand?

I joined NASA because of the people, and their forward thinking.

Having a series that is dedicated to keeping costs down to a minimum is forward thinking.

RRW, you use to belong to MWC, cost to be competitive for one or two race days a month is expensive.

Do not take my discussing some things directly to you personnally. We both belonged to MWC and probably left it and joined NASA for the same reasons.

Everyone, please do not take the subject of this post as I am asking for a rule change. I just wanted to see what others thought. We do have a new platform coming for the Camaro, so it kind of looks like it will be awhile before it is accepted.

I do have a question though, and it probably has been answered before.

Why are the 1967- 1981 F-bodies, and the 1966- 1978 Mustangs not allowed in the CMC Series?

[King Matt1548534716]

A new Edelbrock 2101 is $127.95 from Summit plus about 10 bucks shipping. I'm sure you can get at least 50 bucks for your EGR version, making the cost of complying with the rules pretty damn cheap in this instance!

[ls168camaro]

RRW-I don't think anyone should have to buy a crate engine but I think it could be a good option for someone instead of a rebuild. How many people do we know that have had issues with a rebuilt motor?

If the directors choose to merge the classes and you need more power then I think there are some viable crate motors out there to accomplish this. I'm thinking about the future and for someone building a car right now. Shouldn't a 3rd Gen have the option to run CMC2 with the same power/weight levels? If a guy building a 3rd gen right now wanted to put in a 350 and run CMC2 I think it should be allowed.

Just as Todd talked about his engine build I don't see a difference in the cost in a fresh build versus a crate motor. Lots of people buy rollers or cars with blown motors when starting to build a car. I know we have the 305 crate motor option but what if that person wants to run CMC2.

 

I bet Todd would rather spend 2k on a long block brand new from GM rather than go through the rebuild process. I was lucky enough to find a brand new LS1 crate motor on ebay for $2,075. When my rings are washed on my LS1 from the restrictor I will put it in and sell my motor instead of spending 2,500 for a rebuild. I also won't have to worry about all the issues that come with a rebuilt motor. Sure the crate motor I bought could have a problem but I think it is less likely than a rebuilt motor that has 150k on it.

 

I love the thought of old cars on the track but they are so valuable they will probably only run in Vintage events. They also can't handle anywhere near our platforms. I did my first track day in my 68 Camaro and after that weekend decided I was hooked and decided to go with CMC-Thanks Glenn, Mitch, James, etc.

[comeback kid]

A new Edelbrock 2101 is $127.95 from Summit plus about 10 bucks shipping. I'm sure you can get at least 50 bucks for your EGR version, making the cost of complying with the rules pretty damn cheap in this instance!

 

Geez Matt,

LOL

Oh... never mind.

I am compling. Just trying to save a few extra bucks so I can get out on the track yet this year.

The itch is getting bad.