Tony G Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Fellow racers: Our intention for the series is to merge CMC and CMC2 back into a single class beginning with the 2010 season. Beginning that season, power target for all cars will be 260hp and 300lbsft. A set of engine upgrade packages will be specified to bring the current CMC cars to the new power levels, while current CMC2 cars will simply restrict down. Currently specified CMC-2 wheels, tires and brakes will be used in the 2010 merged class, and certain allowances will be made to assist the older cars in fitting the bigger wheel/tire package. In addition to the director discussions taking place nationally now, volunteers are sought to assist in the research & development of new CMC upgrade packages. Contact one of the directors if you are interested. Now before you go crazy with questions, this is just to let you know where we are headed. We the directors feel that racing as one group is very important to the series and to bring it back to where it was a few years ago, and you all knew that was our intention from day one. We will make sure that everthing is in place and I will have several updates on how we are going to do this. Most is figured out, but not all of it quite yet. Again I will update this subject quite often. Thanks, Your Directors, Tony Guaglione Todd Covini Mike Plum Nick Steel Al Fernandez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Most is figured out, but not all of it quite yet. Crazy question #1: What remains to be figured out? It appears it's a done deal with a scant year for racers to scramble to get to a magic number. Crazy question #2: What is currently broken that needs fixing? I know you said that merging was the intent all along, but it appears that having 2 places for cars to fit keeps the pool of cars bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I am glad to see the heads up on where we are headed. I am interested to see wha the new power/weight tables would look like. I ordered some more LS1 restrictors yesterday and hope to hit the dyno this month. I will help the directors get some more research and am glad to help with the LS1. #3. Will the earlier model cars be allowed to run in CMC2 during 09 with upgraded power levels? #4. Upgraded brakes seem to be the one most expensive upgrade allowed. For the sake of costs will this upgrade still be allowed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comeback kid Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I will be willing to do the 305 cui experamentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Well I have to say this comes along at a decent time for me. About to put brakes on the car, so I'll just go ahead with the 13's. I did sell my BBS 17 x 9's last month, and bought some 16's.....oh well. Hopefully I'll have the car together by the end of the year. If I get licensed in 09, I'll run in CMC2. I'm anticipating 245-250 horse. What will us mod motor guys do to get those last few ponies. Headers? Timing adjusters? 100 octane? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmith350 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. What gives and when will we see specifics? So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4Point6 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. What gives and when will we see specifics? So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... No not really, run what you got through 09. This takes affect in 2010. You got a year and a half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4Point6 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'm anticipating 245-250 horse. What will us mod motor guys do to get those last few ponies. Headers? Timing adjusters? 100 octane? John Not much actually, remember that the 260 hp is MAX and will will have to weigh more accordingly than a 250 car. My car runs 254 unrestricted so I'm not far off and will adjust weight in 2010 depending on the charts in order to keep max tq. I'm going to keep my CMC1 setup through 09 then switch to CMC2. Depending on the weight penalty per HP/TQ, it may be more benifical to be lighter and use a restrictor. Once the HP to weight charts are final, you can simply plug the numbers into a spread sheet and find the best power to weight ratio. Right now it's not linear. In some spots, 1hp cost you 5#, other spots 1HP cost you 15#. Not sure how many beers was consumed when the current chart was made up . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. What gives and when will we see specifics? So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... No not really, run what you got through 09. This takes affect in 2010. You got a year and a half. That sounds rather cavalier ... I'm used to running a motor package for years, not just months. I run mid pack, too. Maybe that's why my gear lasts a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc35 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) (Mitch is much more polite than I...) I just spent $2k to get my SN95 up to 220/295. And now it appears this is all so I can be competitive for 1 year, since 2008 is basically over except for the Nats. This bites, big time. And I don't care what anyone says - it never pays to be lighter with less power. If it did, the CMC limit of 238hp wouldn't have been implemented after the 2007 Nationals, aka the Cody Powell rule. We're going to need some serious help as to how we get the SN95 platform to 260hp. Jump up to the 351? CMC is apparently on its way to turning into SCCA, and even worse: AI. Tanks for nuttin'. -chris Edited July 9, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug1548534725 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 It's not explicitly stated; will the 305 continue to be allowed, or will the prescribed motor "upgrade" package for third-gens be a 350? Assuming the 305s are sticking around, I'd be interested in seeing that's up with the upgrade package and possibly testing, depending on what it is, but I need to give the larger wheels some thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 This comes at a really bad time for me. My motor is in the shop right now getting freshened up and I just spent a bunch of money trying to keep my third gen as stock as possible. What gives and when will we see specifics? So basically I have to stop everything I'm doing right now except for body work........... People in your situation are exactly why I think it "could" be good to know what direction we are headed. If you knew what the new packages were you might be able to go ahead and build it that way and run CMC2 during 09 at the 2010 power/weight charts. That is if a 3rd gen were allowed to run CMC2 during 09 which I think would be a good idea. Why not go ahead and make CMC2 just like the rules will be for 2010? GT4Point6-you bring up an interesting thought. I would like to hear from the directors if there will still be a chart or if all cars will be 260/300 at a set minimum weight. That would put everyone on a level playing field and not have heavy high hp cars. That would eliminate people trying to find the optimum place on the chart. It could also eliminate me from using a different restrictor and weight depending on the layout of the track. Meaning minimum weight/hp for small tight tracks, and heaviest most hp for big open tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Damn! My old 98 vintage LS1 intake would now fetch huge money! It will knock 20hp off of a 2002 LS1 motor. If you thought policing ECM tunes was tough, welcome to identifying installed 99 LS1 intakes and 02 installed LS6 intakes. Lot's of tech inspector training to accomplish in a short year. (Mitch is much more polite than I...) -chris OK ... I'm in uncharted water, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Damn! My old 98 vintage LS1 intake would now fetch huge money! It will knock 20hp off of a 2002 LS1 motor. If you thought policing ECM tunes was tough, welcome to identifying installed 99 LS1 intakes and 02 installed LS6 intakes. Lot's of tech inspector training to accomplish in a short year. (Mitch is much more polite than I...) -chris OK ... I'm in uncharted water, now. It seems that the "fastest mustang in the west coast" ran 96-98 pistons with 99-04 heads, resulting in a boost in compression. I don't see why an intake swap wouldn't be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Cool Lets get the details asap. I just happen to be running a COMPLETELY stock third gen and would like the details as soon as possible. Lucky I didnt have any money this year to spend on upgrades. Also would like to know if a thirdgen/fox could run cmc 2 in 09. I dont have the cash to build a competitive engine for 09 and then do it all over again in 2010. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADVENM Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hmmm, I was planning on upgrading the whole car (power/torque, brakes, suspension, tires, wheels, 5 lug axle, etc) this winter to be competitive (at the current 230 hp numbers, etc) but if I do I'll have to further mod the car to get to the 2010 numbers to maximize my chances at being competitive (unless the required weight doesnt change). If I do the 2010 hp numbers now, I guess I could put a restrictor on since there's no way in "you know what" I can add that much more weight/ballast. Heck, I've got barbell weights out the ying-yang in the car and I dont think I'll meet 3150 after a session on the track this weekend at tech. Someone once told me (recently) why dont we just have a sliding scale for hp and weight. I'm so underpowered right now why cant my required weight be adjusted accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Damn! My old 98 vintage LS1 intake would now fetch huge money! It will knock 20hp off of a 2002 LS1 motor. If you thought policing ECM tunes was tough, welcome to identifying installed 99 LS1 intakes and 02 installed LS6 intakes. Lot's of tech inspector training to accomplish in a short year. (Mitch is much more polite than I...) -chris OK ... I'm in uncharted water, now. It seems that the "fastest mustang in the west coast" ran 96-98 pistons with 99-04 heads, resulting in a boost in compression. I don't see why an intake swap wouldn't be legal. No different than a third gen owner running a 91-92 camshaft in a 87 TPI. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Damn! My old 98 vintage LS1 intake would now fetch huge money! It will knock 20hp off of a 2002 LS1 motor. If you thought policing ECM tunes was tough, welcome to identifying installed 99 LS1 intakes and 02 installed LS6 intakes. Lot's of tech inspector training to accomplish in a short year. (Mitch is much more polite than I...) -chris OK ... I'm in uncharted water, now. It seems that the "fastest mustang in the west coast" ran 96-98 pistons with 99-04 heads, resulting in a boost in compression. I don't see why an intake swap wouldn't be legal. No different than a third gen owner running a 91-92 camshaft in a 87 TPI. kyle If I recall correctly from my "Chevy days", some 01 and 02 LS-1 Camaro's had the better LS-6 block, and some say intakes as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hmmm, I was planning on upgrading the whole car (power/torque, brakes, suspension, tires, wheels, 5 lug axle, etc) this winter to be competitive (at the current 230 hp numbers, etc) but if I do I'll have to further mod the car to get to the 2010 numbers to maximize my chances at being competitive (unless the required weight doesnt change). If I do the 2010 hp numbers now, I guess I could put a restrictor on since there's no way in "you know what" I can add that much more weight/ballast. Heck, I've got barbell weights out the ying-yang in the car and I dont think I'll meet 3150 after a session on the track this weekend at tech. Someone once told me (recently) why dont we just have a sliding scale for hp and weight. I'm so underpowered right now why cant my required weight be adjusted accordingly. Dont worry Dave. I got your pm over at nasaRM and have been working on a set up for you guys that will make 250-260 ish for less than 2k. 260 will be a piece of cake with the current allowed mods for the fox mustang. Heck Rich is at 230 with a set of high mileage E7 heads. If he was to add a set of GT40s he would pretty much be there. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Damn! My old 98 vintage LS1 intake would now fetch huge money! It will knock 20hp off of a 2002 LS1 motor. If you thought policing ECM tunes was tough, welcome to identifying installed 99 LS1 intakes and 02 installed LS6 intakes. Lot's of tech inspector training to accomplish in a short year. (Mitch is much more polite than I...) -chris OK ... I'm in uncharted water, now. It seems that the "fastest mustang in the west coast" ran 96-98 pistons with 99-04 heads, resulting in a boost in compression. I don't see why an intake swap wouldn't be legal. No different than a third gen owner running a 91-92 camshaft in a 87 TPI. kyle If I recall correctly from my "Chevy days", some 01 and 02 LS-1 Camaro's had the better LS-6 block, and some say intakes as well. I'm a little bit rusty on my LS1 tech however I thought it was late 02s with the LS6 intake. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwv02 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'm a little bit rusty on my LS1 tech however I thought it was late 02s with the LS6 intake. kyle All '01-'02 Z28/SS/TransAM/Formula/WS6 LS1 F-bodies had LS6 intakes. LS6 blocks were scattered, depends on what the factory had that week in stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 gotcha. I just dont have enough room in my little brain to store all of the euro/ford/chevy info in my head at the same time. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerslide91 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Trying to get this back on track a bit.... As a recently completed 3rd genner, I admit I am not thrilled (trying to be polite like Mitch). So, BryanL said it above, but allow me to try to draw attention to it. I'd really recommend to the Directors that they publish a working draft of the new rules as soon as possible. And use it as a way to get feedback so those of us in the boat of needing to make changes can start scoping what's involved. I have a bunch of "crazy questions" that directly affect my wallet, and therefore my ability to go play on weekends. So, any ideas on when we can see some details? Thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den341548534727 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Looks like I am in the minority here, but I am excited about this news. I run a carburated thirdgen and came from American Iron. My old 305 used to make around 315rwhp and 310 tq. I dont think the 260 hp will be too difficult to achieve if we are allowed to use headers and a performer RPM intake ... maybe a slightly hotter cam. (Matt King) I would be more than willing to help out in testing to find a workable combination. I still have a lot of the aformentioned parts in the garage. I think this is a smart move to bring the two groups back together. Here in the Midwest we struggle with car counts. Additionally I think allowing headers (whether they work or not) might be a good move. Seems like around here headers is the first modification the HPDE guy does and doesnt want to let go of them to goe racing and then they start talking about American Iron because CMC does not allow headers. IMHO Bob Denton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K Shaw Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I like the idea and the HP move shouldnt be difficult for me. Not sure on the wheel/brake yet. kyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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