jeffburch Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 With all of my heart, I sincerely agree with every word above from my friend Rob Liebbe. Also, I want to ask all why participation is so low for Nationals 2008? I believe it to be economics and that CMC competitors are a very frugal lot. We participate in the cheapest form of automobile road racing in the world because most can barely afford to. I'm a cheap bastard. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 again...you are now adding MORE cars to the list running 275/40/17's....will Toyo be making enough tires to cover CMC/2 and AI...? What I find funny is that CMC is now getting SUPER close to AI. only difference is min weight, front aero and coil overs! Is the secondary goal to merge with AI in 2012?! LOL!!! MFW-enough with the posts about Toyo making enough tires. Also, CMC is still light years away from AI. Even with the new rules set there still aren't going to be $50,000 plus CMC cars. What are you even doing in here? Does AI not have a message board? Really Matt, we know you really wish you were running in CMC. Go win Nats in AI, sell your car, run CMC, and then find out if you can drive better than Glenn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Still the newbie here, but my $.02 worth. I was attracted to this series because of the low cost compared to AI. The car count is low here in the Southeast and the joining of CMC and CMC2 seems to be a good idea to me. Maybe I'm missing something but this all seems like a good simple idea. If your running a fox or 3rd gen, will another 20hp destroy your drivetrain? Maybe you could lose some ballast instead? what if there was one chart say 240HP/3000lb to 260HP/3250lb. Of course maybe certain platforms might have to add or subtract 50lb. Maybe you get a 25lb weight break for running 16"s? Or carry an extra 50lb for using 4 piston brakes? Just thinking out loud here, but overall this series still looks extremely attractive to me. I'm sure it will all be sorted out fairly. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I also agree w/ Rob Liebble 's well written post Iam taken aback by the sudden announcement of such a big change (cost) manily to the older cars NASA is a GRASS ROOTS organization .. show me the racers MANDATE into ONE class I suggest we start a poll ( post in with your car , region + motor type ) I vote to leave it as two classes 3rd gen , 5 lt , California Carson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 MFW-enough with the posts about Toyo making enough tires. Does AI not have a message board? I lurk over here to keep my options open but I agree with Liebbe...where does the homologation stop....and when do the "powers that be" in AI decide we need to FURTHER distance ourselves with CMC?! So basically, by making you guys spend more money, we might have to spend more in AI!!! That's scary! As for the tire thing...maybe you won't think I am crazy when you call up vilven in the summer next year looking for tires and they don't have them! 3 years now, the LOW car counts in AI have had trouble getting tires...triple the car count running them and hopefully someone high up in NASA has said we need XXXX tires for 2009 please! Oh, and at least we agree that I will be winning NATS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 And yes, we have a forum... here is one you should read! http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9829&hilit=Tires and another! http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3283&hilit=+Tires That was a 2 second search... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (From newB perspective) I would be SOOOOO p!ssed had I pulled the trigger on a carb'd 3rd gen only to find out that I have to rebuild the motor and buy new brakes, wheels and tires. If I was a current 3rd gen/Fox(?) owner, I would be fuming at the thought of having spent so much time and money on a car only to have it be tossed aside because someone wants to unify the series. Since there are far fewer CMC2 cars, why not make them REDUCE their power and get smaller brakes/wheels/tires? Or just make it a HP/WT ratio with a lower weight minimum? With all that said, I'm not pissed because I bought a 4th gen and can go any way the series wants. I just need to know what parts to buy when building it up. It seems to me that all this flies in the face of the "cheapest" philosophy that CMC has been following. But then again, I've never had one lap of competitive racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camaro_1le Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (From newB perspective)I would be SOOOOO p!ssed had I pulled the trigger on a carb'd 3rd gen only to find out that I have to rebuild the motor and buy new brakes, wheels and tires. If I was a current 3rd gen/Fox(?) owner, I would be fuming at the thought of having spent so much time and money on a car only to have it be tossed aside because someone wants to unify the series. I am a third gen owner and I welcome the unification of CMC and away from the bastardized format that is currently in place. I view it as better for the class. Yes, it will impact my pocket book and credit cards. But here is a group of guys willing to keep it simple and let me run a 16 year old car. Yes, I am running a 7 month old 305 that I have dumped close to $4000 into to get it running right. No, I am not wealthy and had to give a lot up to be out there for my first full season. And I am not pissed about the change. Hell, we all knew it was coming. I am grateful they have given me 18 months to figure it out. And on top of that, if the scenario arises, I can run my third gen in CMC-2 next year and collect the Toyo bucks! As for tires and brakes, I will probably move to 17" but now have time to shop for decent deals. I will not be upgrading my 1LE brakes though because of the expense. I don't believe I need the brakes to remain competitive. Actually, I am not really sure about the tires either. There is a big trade off of unsprung weight and the extra contact patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmith350 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 No not really, run what you got through 09. This takes affect in 2010. You got a year and a half. With all due respect sir...that is not my point. http://www.aicmctexas.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2083 please read this post keeping in mind that as we speak my motor is in the machine shop and would have been finished this next week if I had not called him and told him to STOP EVERYTHING! I now have no direction in which to go drivetrain wise. My plan was to get it running and try to make the rest of the season and use the off time to get it TOTALLY ready for 09'. I am that 1% that this rules change affects the most. If you would please tell me what I should do now? Not only are my plans for track time shot but now I have to wait for details on a rule change before I can proceed ANY further. I really would appreciate an honest answer from any and all race directors considering my "halfway" point situation. Side note...we've already had problems with T5's grenading.....what happens when we add more horsies??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I view it as better for the class. I keep seeing that comment from all those in charge. But no one is explaining HOW it makes the class better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donovan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I view it as better for the class. I keep seeing that comment from all those in charge. But no one is explaining HOW it makes the class better. Here you go Mitch... this should explain a little bit. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmith350 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 So.......Riddle me this Batman.... This change is taking place basically to even out field because of the Mod motor guys and the LS1 people correct? (read- newer platforms) Can I see a show of hands of the people running these platforms as apposed to the 3rd Gen/Fox? This needs alot of explanation...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camaro_1le Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I view it as better for the class. I keep seeing that comment from all those in charge. But no one is explaining HOW it makes the class better. Besides your general naysayer quips, how does it make it worse? First and foremost, there is one rule set to follow. The directors are not trying to manage two different classes. Maybe you want to start a separate series for your car? I did not think so. Second, it provides longevity for the older cars. What happens when the SN95 and 4th gens are outnumbering the older cars. The fox bodies and third gens will be cast aside. What would you rather do: $1500 bucks to update to power or $15,000 for a new race car. I was not a math major, but I think I can even figure that out. It provides a large race group that is, in theory, equal. Currently we have CMC and CMC-2 cars mixed up together in a single group. It will be better racing with 15 equal cars than 7 lower power and 8 higher powered cars. A larger group provides better racing, viewing and interest. Maybe even leading to your desire to have television time. Honestly, it was a little painful watching the Nationals video with the announcers trying to explain what the situation was in CMC. Finally, we are not like AI/AIX...we are smarter. Go ahead and argue each point as I suspect you will. I am off planning for 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichV Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 My .02. Cobra brakes.....cool. 17" wheels.....why not, I need R888s anyway. +30hp.....not that different from the current rules. I don't think anyone will be building a different motor for 30hp. I would think that the spec motor is not going to change drastic amounts. a 230 vs 260 horsepower motor is a couple of bolt ons. If non-factory headers are allowed, that will be all that most will need to get close. Not too sure on the GM stuff tho. Yea, it sucks if you are currently building a car and have bought parts for current rules. But, you could not race with higher HP or 17" wheels currently. If the older cars can run CMC2 in 09 I will start gathering parts, possibly installing if my region decides to go ahead. Currently we have about 10 CMC cars/racers. We have all decided not to CMC2 due to keeping 1 class fun and ensuring Toyo $$ at each race. Looks like we will be forced to change for 2010. I'm OK with it, I get to upgrade some stuff in the off season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 So.......Riddle me this Batman.... This change is taking place basically to even out field because of the Mod motor guys and the LS1 people correct? (read- newer platforms) Can I see a show of hands of the people running these platforms as apposed to the 3rd Gen/Fox? This needs alot of explanation...... Yup, how many of the true "Future of CMC" cars are presently out there? Mod motors and LSx's running table 3 and 4, NATIONWIDE??? I say maybe 10. How many five liter cars, NATIONWIDE? I say, over 100. I haven't had my ass whipped yet by ANY CMC2 car. I'll lay and wait for this to shake out. Wishing I could go get some of Shotz at M.O. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Yup, how many of the true "Future of CMC" cars are presently out there? Mod motors and LSx's running table 3 and 4, NATIONWIDE??? Been wondering the same thing myself. I see big numbers running CMC-2 in some regions, but how many of these are just cars that made the jump from CMC so they could run the bigger brakes, tires and HP vs. actual genuine CMC-2 cars? JB, I thought you were lobbying for a 350 in a 3G so you could run in -2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastjohn Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 We ran the 275"s at t-hill in the 25. Problem isn't the extra load from the bigger wheel, but the extra heat and weight put on the sealed bearing from bigger brakes and higher minimum weight. Lots of cooling helps, but longevity will be shortened! On toyo's availabilty don't forget that FFR's run that size also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Den341548534727 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 92 1LE says it best Second, it provides longevity for the older cars. What happens when the SN95 and 4th gens are outnumbering the older cars. The fox bodies and third gens will be cast aside. What would you rather do: $1500 bucks to update to power or $15,000 for a new race car. I was not a math major, but I think I can even figure that out. As a thirdgen owner this is why I was excited to see the change. I will have a place to race my car for a long time. I just hope the new rules allow modifications for the carb cars to get close to the 260/300 numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 92 1LE says it bestSecond, it provides longevity for the older cars. What happens when the SN95 and 4th gens are outnumbering the older cars. The fox bodies and third gens will be cast aside. What would you rather do: $1500 bucks to update to power or $15,000 for a new race car. I was not a math major, but I think I can even figure that out. As a thirdgen owner this is why I was excited to see the change. I will have a place to race my car for a long time. I just hope the new rules allow modifications for the carb cars to get close to the 260/300 numbers. Two words... Rules creep. ASedan started allowing "just" headers, CMC is proposing "just" brakes, "just" wheels/tires, and "just" 30hp (be it cam, headers, tune, injectors, ignition whatever) this time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comeback kid Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 92 1LE says it bestSecond, it provides longevity for the older cars. What happens when the SN95 and 4th gens are outnumbering the older cars. The fox bodies and third gens will be cast aside. What would you rather do: $1500 bucks to update to power or $15,000 for a new race car. I was not a math major, but I think I can even figure that out. As a thirdgen owner this is why I was excited to see the change. I will have a place to race my car for a long time. I just hope the new rules allow modifications for the carb cars to get close to the 260/300 numbers. I am also in favor of the changes. I have a third gen Camaro in process that will be using a 305. I will stick with 12" front rotors and 16" wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Go ahead and argue each point as I suspect you will. I am off planning for 2010 Fortunate for me, I don't have to plan. I'm at the 2010 power levels, have adequate brakes and 17s. My fear are those 7 CMC lower HP cars will dwindle to 2 or 3 and the higher HP cars will increase to maybe 10. Personally, I'd rather see 15 cars on track. I'm no math major either, but I do have 30 years in marketing. To the public, more cars are better than less ... except in LA. So which is cheaper ... hiring announcers that know the series or requiring 30-40% of the racers to spend serious cash during a recession? Or let them eat cake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Agan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Two words... Rules creep. ASedan started allowing "just" headers, CMC is proposing "just" brakes, "just" wheels/tires, and "just" 30hp (be it cam, headers, tune, injectors, ignition whatever) this time around. Rules creep, what are you talking about.......in A-Sedan it is basically a Mustang and Camaro class and they don't allow fuel inj. So basically, every car from 1986 to present would have to pull out their computer and FI. That's exactly why their fields have been getting smaller and smaller every year. How many 1970 Camaro's do you see on the race track, very few? That's exactly what will happen to the 3rd Gen's and the Fox if you don't keep it running with more current cars. My 1988 Mustang is 20 years old, I bought it new. I have spent 5 years getting it perfect, and I still think this is the right move. In fact, I personally think it's long overdue. Out here in the East all of our new drivers are joining CMC-2, NOT CMC. Even without the merger, by 2010 the CMC2 cars would out number the CMC cars 2-1 Right now it is about equal, 10 CMC-2 and 10 CMC. Out here is the east CMC and CMC-2 get their own race because of the car count. Both classes are gridded together by qual time. With 10 in each class we are getting in each others way all the time. At this point I am racing CMC cars, if a CMC-2 car passes me on a straight and holds me up in the turns it screws up my race against other CMC cars. In other regions if you don't have a big CMC2 car count it may be difficult to see the big picture. Out here CMC-2 is growing and CMC is not. If you were a new racer with the current rules, and the choice of either class would you really go out and buy an old Fox and spend the money to take the rear drums off and all of the other high per stuff that the prior owner put on the car? How many Fox's would you find with low mileage and a perfectly built engine that's at the number? In the East, and the NE, how many Foxes would you find that weren't rust buckets? Here's the answer....The smart one's would go out and buy a 4th gen or a newer Mustang and join CMC-2 and basically be at the HP/TQ number with little effort. That's why CMC-2 is growing and CMC is not. Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 That's why CMC-2 is growing and CMC is not. Kent That is not the case in Texas. We have several CMC cars in the making....and this change screws their builds up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I can certainly understand how a newcomer entering the class with an SN95 Mustang or 4th Gen LT1 would look at the CMC-2 rules and say, "Yeah, I'll take the bigger brakes and tires and extra horsepower, all other things being equal." Those are the sexy parts most people want anyway, and in some cases with the Fords, the 17s and 13-inch brakes are actually the cheaper and easier solution. But was that really the intention when CMC-2 was created? I thought the goal was to give 3- and 4-valve Modular Mustangs and LS1 4th Gens a cost-effective place to race, not to shift new or existing CMC cars to CMC-2. I'm building a new pushrod SN95 for CMC, so I'm in a position now where I can go either way even though I would have preferred to remain in CMC. But I do think that allowing some of these upgrades that so many people have been requesting for years will make the class more appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liebbe1548534713 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 It is about supporting those who make up the field. It is about supporting all of them. It is about supporting those who made decisions in the past, those who are making decisions in the present, and those who are making decisions in the future. This can easily be accomplished by leaving the two CMC's separate. Will the older cars start to fade away as time goes by, probably. Will the newer cars continue to increase, probably. But to come along and say that your older car will someday no longer be around so we are going to go ahead and alienate you right now is a mistake. Go ahead, make those of us who have spent our time and money specifically building cars to run in NASA's CMC class mad. How does that make the customer happy? How does that make for a congruent group come race day? How does that positively affect car count? It is true that I don't like change. I especially don't like change for change's sake. I need a good reason, which I have not yet seen. All I have heard from the directors is that "it will be good for the series", come on have some Kool-Aid. Seems like there are others here who agree and we are waiting for the explanation from up high. I still don't see the problem with two CMC classes as it allows the support of all involved. Rob - "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" - Liebbe CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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