mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas Because "the man" keeps gridding us in back. Want some cake with that koo-aid? Edit ... With the increased allowable HP, tire and brake, is any thought being given to allowing cage upgrades like welding A-Pillar bars to the body and such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Since everyone has their own opinion about how many cars run in what class, I thought it would be good to have some factual evidence. I looked up the 2008 results and got the car counts for each class by region and date. Overall, there is an average 2:1 ratio of CMC:CMC2 cars at any given event. The exception is the SoCal region which actually fields more CMC2 cars. Feel free to add/subtract any info to this list. Hope this helps. ..........CMC...CMC2...Diff June MA.........9.......7.......2 NorCal...11.......8.......3 MW/GL....1.......0.......1 RM.........1.......0.......1 TX.........13.......3.....10 May MA.........8.......5.......3 MW/GL....5.......0.......5 RM.........6.......0.......6 SoCal.......5......8......-3 SE..........3.......0.......3 April NorCal...10.......8.......2 GL..........1.......0.......1 SoCal......5.......7......-2 TX..........8........3.......5 SE.........4.........0.......4 March MA.........8........5.......3 NorCal.....6........5.......1 RM.........6........0.......6 TX........11........3.......8 SE.........3........0.......3 February MA.........8........5........3 TX..........9........3........6 SE..........3........0........3 TOTAL.144.......70 AVG......6.3......3.0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasa-rm Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I'm a cheap bastard.jb +1 (meaning me too, not that burch is cheap ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted July 10, 2008 Members Share Posted July 10, 2008 Guys, first of all thanks for the heartfelt comments. Believe me when I say this is the most difficult issue we've been dealing with for some time. I will remind us all that the purpose of creating CMC2 in the first place was never to split the group long term, rather to give us the time to figure out how to incorporate the newer cars while giving those newer cars a place to run immediately. In other words, the change is not new. What is new is the timing being defined as 2010 instead of "in the future". It is very true that Texas demographics are quite different to the east and west coasts. While they are seeing a 50/50 split with CMC2 growing faster, we here in Texas have one LS1 car currently running and no S197s. We also have no 4.6 Fords! Obviously these changes are going to impact us the most as a region. That alone is no reason to hold back the nation. Regarding why this is "good for the series"... 1) it is preferred by our sanctioning body and our series sponsors to have fewer larger groups than more and smaller groups. Having one CMC class instead of two enables easier marketing, cleaner management, and increased opportunity for contingencies without having to water them down. 2) There should be no doubt that on average more and more cars are coming in under CMC2 specs (4.6 cars, LT1 cars, S197s and LS1s). Therefore, unless we enable to older cars to keep up they will become obsolete. They will become worthless. Ask a spec RX7 owner how much their car is worth. We are not talking about spending $6k here. When facing the option of asking current drivers to spend a grand to stay in the race or sit idling and watch their car devalue from 10-12k to a couple of grand for the few folks who are willing to own a dedicated track car that can only DE or run SU the choice is pretty clear. This we've known and made efforts to make clear from the beginning, the only question was timing and the specifics of how much power it'd be and how to make the power. 3) Racing with 15 cars under one rule set is better than racing with 6 cars under YOUR rule set while having to avoid 9 cars running under a different rule set. Ask any current CMC driver that has had to mix it up with CMC2 cars that are setting close to the same lap times how frustrating it is. They dust you on the straight and you catch up on the turns. Meanwhile the guy you're really racing with slowly disappears into the distance. If the value of this is lost on you, call me. Please feel free to call me (925-408-7303, or any of the other directors for that matter) to discuss deep details, I dont want this post to run on for ever. Ross, you especially, lets talk about what you should do to finish your ride! One more thing, since its been brought up but not discussed: weight. We're expecting to have weight stay where it is, ie 3200lb give or take. Essentially, everyone would conform to table 3 in the current rule set, though hopefully those power numbers in that table will come down slightly still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted July 10, 2008 Members Share Posted July 10, 2008 Those CMC Vs CMC2 numbers are nowehere near correct since the only regions with 2008 results posted are Ca and Tx. Brad?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I can only post what gets sent to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Agan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 The numbers for the MA region don't reflect the reality. We currently have 10 regular drivers in each class, and a few more "once in a whiler's). Since most of the drivers in our CMC-2 group are new to racing, many of the cars experience issues on the Friday test days and don't race the weekend. Without exception, every one of the regular CMC cars in the East using a 3rd gen or a Fox would have moved to CMC-2 if the cars were allowed in the class. We enjoy running in big fields out here because regardless of skill level, there is always someone in-class to race against. With the two classes separated, many of our guys drive around in circles without another class car to race head-to-head against. The other regions with few CMC-2 cars and many CMC cars don't have the same problem. When the classes are put together it helps us out here big time because all 20 cars race against each other. The only drawback that I am hearing from my gang is the fact that there will be half as much Toyo money available. Right now we have 10 drivers getting money. With the classes together 5 drivers will lose out. I plan to suggest to Tony that we talk to Toyo and offer bucks to more drivers, but based on the car count. Obviously we are in a different situation than other regions, and that's why for the most part, the drivers out here are thrilled with the idea. Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Plus, when I pulled those numbers outta my ass, I said mod motor/LSx cars. Not CMC2 cars. Until someone gives me the spec parts specifically for my Chevrolet 305 to make the new numbers, I'll continue to be a grumpy old man about the whole deal. You guys can have all the big wheels/tires/brakes you want. Maybe this will level the playing field jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Agan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Sorry Brad, it's my fault. I will get you updated numbers. Thanks for pointing it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Essentially, everyone would conform to table 3 in the current rule set, though hopefully those power numbers in that table will come down slightly still. Which is it gonna be in 2010? 300 or 310 ft. lbs. thx, jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Thanks Al for the response. Making this kind of announcement without warning or reasoning cause a lot of unnecessary angst. Your responses make sense are reasonable. While some might not like it and others may not agree, at least it's a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liebbe1548534713 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Thanks Al. This reasoning should have been put out there in the first post. I'll look forward to more details as I get my head around this issue. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Those CMC Vs CMC2 numbers are nowehere near correct since the only regions with 2008 results posted are Ca and Tx. Brad?? I got them from mylaps.com. I knew they would be a bit off, but I thought they would be close enough for a comparison. It was the only info I could find that had most of the region's data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comeback kid Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Plus, when I pulled those numbers outta my ass, I said mod motor/LSx cars. Not CMC2 cars. Until someone gives me the spec parts specifically for my Chevrolet 305 to make the new numbers, I'll continue to be a grumpy old man about the whole deal. You guys can have all the big wheels/tires/brakes you want. Maybe this will level the playing field jb That is easy, just put a 300 hp (SAE) LT1 in your car and call it a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 When the classes are put together it helps us out here big time because all 20 cars race against each other. The only drawback that I am hearing from my gang is the fact that there will be half as much Toyo money available. Right now we have 10 drivers getting money. With the classes together 5 drivers will lose out. I plan to suggest to Tony that we talk to Toyo and offer bucks to more drivers, but based on the car count. Kent They don't do it for Spec Miata, even when we averaged 30+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas Because "the man" keeps gridding us in back. Want some cake with that koo-aid? Qualify faster than CMC and you won't have that problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Qualify faster than CMC and you won't have that problem. Ouch....I bet that one stings a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Plus, when I pulled those numbers outta my ass, I said mod motor/LSx cars. Not CMC2 cars. Until someone gives me the spec parts specifically for my Chevrolet 305 to make the new numbers, I'll continue to be a grumpy old man about the whole deal. You guys can have all the big wheels/tires/brakes you want. Maybe this will level the playing field jb That is easy, just put a 300 hp (SAE) LT1 in your car and call it a day. Send me one. jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Speaking of which, did the podium finishers in CMC-2 at last year's Nationals also get manties to go with their trophies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j dawes Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I'm building a new pushrod SN95 for CMC, so I'm in a position now where I can go either way ... But I do think that allowing some of these upgrades that so many people have been requesting for years... So what kind of upgrades are we talking about? Long tube headers? Ram air of some sort? Cams? Basically, what can be done to the 5.0 pushrod motor [that can be 'easily' detected by the tech inspectors and 'relatively' inexpensive] to get to 260/300? AND, more importantly, can you do those things and maintain a similar level of reliability over several seasons? I do see the 'long term' benefits of the proposed 2010 rule change, from certain perspectives [racers, directors, NASA 'execs', etc.]. I'm one of the newbies here and can see both sides of the coin...I'll be attending comp school at VIR next February and, depending on the outcome, will gladly race in either class. I'd prefer to not have to rebuild the motor [now around 225/275] to make another 35-40 rwhp, but I'll do what I have to to be part of the CMC 'family' here in the Mid Atlantic...the alternative, to me, is not viable: throw my hands up in frustration and quit, or go elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Those specifics are yet to be determined, but it is probably going to take a cam, intake, and headers to get a 5.0L Ford or GM to the numbers. Maybe even a different cylinder head for the GMs. We have top men working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j dawes Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 *deleted by JD* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Those specifics are yet to be determined, but it is probably going to take a cam, intake, and headers to get a 5.0L Ford or GM to the numbers. Maybe even a different cylinder head for the GMs. We have top men working on it. Headers, injectors, tune, 1.6 rockers (for GM, fords get what 1.7s?)... I personally hope that those top men can try keep away from requiring having to open up the motor. [edit to add] I wonder if merging the two classes in 2010 was known when the increase from a 255 to 275 for CMC2 in 2009 was discussed. I'ld have much less to complain about if the 17" option was still limited to 255s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas Because "the man" keeps gridding us in back. Want some cake with that koo-aid? Qualify faster than CMC and you won't have that problem. When did you begin setting the grid? And I'm getting there ... I just hope it's once before 2010! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 CMC #1 - Outrunning the CMC2 cars in Texas Because "the man" keeps gridding us in back. Want some cake with that koo-aid? Qualify faster than CMC and you won't have that problem. When did you begin setting the grid? And I'm getting there ... I just hope it's once before 2010! I believe it was 2001 or 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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