BIG CMC announcement.

[supermac]

At least all the whining has stopped!

I don't mind being a lightning rod as long as everyone lightens up.

JB you don't even need the power so go sit in the corner.

As a matter of fact if any of you think that 20 horsepower is going to turn you into a national champ you are dillusional.

I am not on a high horse I just get sick of people threating to take thier toys and go home everytime something comes up this is not the first time and it won't be the last.

I never said anything about cost containment, just that $400 shouldn't be that big a deal if you are racing, if it is maybe you should take my route and stay home.

[ls168camaro]

Supermac-I find it interesting that you say people are whining about spending 400 bucks when you are broke and not racing. People are just concerned about what it might end up costing as it isn't going to be just headers for lots of guys. Then its dyno-tuning, try something else, and more dyno tuning. Then there is the fear that with 30 more rwhp there will be more engine/transmission failures.

The guys making posts aren't wannabees or staying home either so you should do some more research before you come off looking like an idiot.

 

Would be nice to have more information about the new CMC 2010 Class. I also think that CMC2 for next year should be the same as the CMC 2010 Ruleset.

 

Meanwhile I have ordered my smaller restrictors, buying a set of smaller injectors and will be setting up a dyno day to get ready. Just curious if there will be any power tables or just a min weight of 3200 and max power of 260/300.

[CMC#11]

Bryan, I don't think any min. weights have been mentioned yet. I do agree it would be good to see what some of the changes will be.

[Glenn]

look for a post clarifing that anyone who wants to move to the 260 hp number w/ an approved package may do so and run in CMC-2 w/ approval of your regional director.

Al should be getting this out soon enough.

[rsmith350]

At least all the whining has stopped!

I don't mind being a lightning rod as long as everyone lightens up.

 

I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am so don't make negative blanket statements when people are just trying to get information. Stay home. We don't need that kind of attitude anywhere near this series. The people in the Texas region are one of the main influences of me making this sizable investment and deciding to join this series. I hope you're not part of the recruiting team in Colorado.

[Glenn]

ok guys - calm down. Cody Powell is a good guy. no since in jumping his ass. and Cody could have come across a little lighter being as he's not very well known to most of this group.

everyone take a frickin' pill and relax.

[K Shaw]

This oh my engine is in the shop crap or I am building a car and now I will have to stop crap is just that crap, build it and add the headers later or don't. You can always just sit around and whine.

Very nice. Tell the guy to just build the motor. THEN have the rules come out saying such and such cam is approved. That's productive. You must work for management.

 

Get off your high horse. These guys are asking what the rules changes will likely be. As of now, there is no gaurantee that even headers will be allowed. Nothing is set in stone yet.

 

If we are sticking with the 5L motors in the third gen/fox mustangs why cant your engine builder finish the machine work and you toss a cam in the car?

 

I dont see why the engine builder cant finish the short block right now.

 

kyle

[K Shaw]

ok guys - calm down. Cody Powell is a good guy. no since in jumping his ass. and Cody could have come across a little lighter being as he's not very well known to most of this group.

everyone take a frickin' pill and relax.

 

You obviously dont know Cody that well.

 

He is a GREAT guy and a really COOL dude. Kind of a chubby honky but hey we can look past that one.

 

Without Cody and Raybob alot of us wouldnt be racing right now.

 

kyle

[bsim]

I predict that there will be 230 hp cars in 2010. Just as there are 180 HP cars today. Personally, I'd rather be down on power so I can have an excuse for being one of the 25 non-winners in a race, not the fact that I can't drive.

 

You go out on the track and find your race.

[ls168camaro]

Now this is the creative thinking and brainstorming of solutions we were looking for! Keep 'em coming.

 

As Tony mentioned in the announcement, we've provided the vision for the next decade beginning in 2010. We don't have all the answers as to exactly how that will look just yet, but input, research & development into making that 2010 vision a reality is what we need!

 

It's unfortunate for the handful of folks that have motors in the shop right now and are in a conundrum. For those folks, don't sit back and wait. I would contact one of your series directors ASAP for more insight. We don't have all the answers, but we can hopefully shed some light as to where it looks like things are going.

 

Bottom line...no car will be obsolete. The future ruleset will take 302/305 cars into account and there will be accomodations for all CMC & CMC-2 cars. If it were me.....stay the course...rework sucks. It'll be 3 years before you start to realize you want or need something different. Seat time is more important than any of this stuff.

 

Todd-I think there are several people willing to help with brainstorming for solutions as well as playing the devils advocate. It also helps everyone involved if they know what is being looked at, why, and what was the result that led to the decision. Just seem better than here are your options-take it or leave.

 

I agree with Todd that seat time is so important. Thats why I'm almost certain that since he hasn't been in a car in over a year that I will now be faster than him I just won't be following your line at TWS if we are both there

You know I have never raced against a truck before either.

[Glenn]

ok guys - calm down. Cody Powell is a good guy. no since in jumping his ass. and Cody could have come across a little lighter being as he's not very well known to most of this group.

everyone take a frickin' pill and relax.

 

You obviously dont know Cody that well.

 

He is a GREAT guy and a really COOL dude. Kind of a chubby honky but hey we can look past that one.

 

Without Cody and Raybob alot of us wouldnt be racing right now.

 

kyle

 

i know Cody pretty well.

[cmc35]

ok guys - calm down. Cody Powell is a good guy. no since in jumping his ass. and Cody could have come across a little lighter being as he's not very well known to most of this group.

everyone take a frickin' pill and relax.

 

You obviously dont know Cody that well.

 

He is a GREAT guy and a really COOL dude. Kind of a chubby honky but hey we can look past that one.

 

Without Cody and Raybob alot of us wouldnt be racing right now.

 

kyle

 

i know Cody pretty well.

 

yes, you do.

 

kyle, all is well.

 

-chris

[rsmith350]

This oh my engine is in the shop crap or I am building a car and now I will have to stop crap is just that crap, build it and add the headers later or don't. You can always just sit around and whine.

Very nice. Tell the guy to just build the motor. THEN have the rules come out saying such and such cam is approved. That's productive. You must work for management.

 

Get off your high horse. These guys are asking what the rules changes will likely be. As of now, there is no gaurantee that even headers will be allowed. Nothing is set in stone yet.

 

If we are sticking with the 5L motors in the third gen/fox mustangs why cant your engine builder finish the machine work and you toss a cam in the car?

 

I dont see why the engine builder cant finish the short block right now.

 

kyle

 

That was me......not Brian. That is exactly what i am doing. No whining/complaining. I'll be on track in a few months. Announcement just took me by surprise and was looking for info.

[jeffburch]

More whining follows, turn away if you want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one has whined about the current weights on TABLE 3

Does this mean a 3G's and Fox's gotta run 3200 lbs. minimum?!

Our cars have run 3150 min for decades!

WTF?

 

jb

[Al F.]

Jules, I'm only pretty sure I can figure out how to incorporate your suggestion into the rules, but I'm completely sure I aint going to be the one doing the tech inspection on that one!!

 

There are several folks that have stepped up already to be test mules, which is fantastic. If all goes well we'll have the first 305 on the dyno in a month and a half. I know thats a long time to wait, so here is some info to chew on:

 

Overall, we want to make choices that a) keep and complexity of the install as low as possible, b) keep reliability of the package as high as possible and c) make the numbers reliably.

 

On the 305 front we're looking to start with 1.6 rockers and shorties, plus a different intake for the carbed 305s. If that comes up short we'll step up with an intake (TPI) then a cam. We also have a lot of thoughts around 350s to provide a good alternative.

 

On the 302 front we recently allowed Cobra gear which has helped a bunch; there are several that posted numbers in the high 240s. We're looking to boost that by allowing shorties, and allowing explorer parts to help with the cost/difficulty of finding the parts. A bump to an e cam should make that combo a slam dunk.

 

Glenn brings up a very good point...while 2010 is the deadline, that doesnt mean that is when the changes are first implemented. For 09 the new "table 3" will be the only table for CMC2, and early fox and 3g adopters will be welcome there as well. And yes, weights will be revised slightly, but expect them to be near the 3200lb mark.

[cmc35]

On the 305 front we're looking to start with 1.6 rockers and shorties, plus a different intake for the carbed 305s. If that comes up short we'll step up with an intake (TPI) then a cam. We also have a lot of thoughts around 350s to provide a good alternative.

 

If the 350 is considered for the Camaro, the 351 should probably be on the table for the Mustang. If restricting down is the solution for one platform, it might be appropriate for the other. Not saying that a 350 OR a 351 should be required; just one of the options.

 

Just a thought. (no whining here )

 

thanks,

chris

[Glenn]

On the 305 front we're looking to start with 1.6 rockers and shorties, plus a different intake for the carbed 305s. If that comes up short we'll step up with an intake (TPI) then a cam. We also have a lot of thoughts around 350s to provide a good alternative.

 

If the 350 is considered for the Camaro, the 351 should probably be on the table for the Mustang. If restricting down is the solution for one platform, it might be appropriate for the other. Not saying that a 350 OR a 351 should be required; just one of the options.

 

Just a thought. (no whining here )

 

thanks,

chris

 

not really and i'll tell you why, the 302 Ford is a much better design cubic inch for cubic in than the 305. semtrical ports go a long way.

the 302 is easily getting to the number, and cheaply. the 305 on theother hand isnt easily getting there and it may end up not being cheap. for $1800, a GM long block 350 crate motor can be had. so at somepoint its cheaper to let them go 350 than to put lipstick on a pig.

as for the 351, not sure you will find a Ford crate motor long block 351 for $1800.

[K Shaw]

This oh my engine is in the shop crap or I am building a car and now I will have to stop crap is just that crap, build it and add the headers later or don't. You can always just sit around and whine.

Very nice. Tell the guy to just build the motor. THEN have the rules come out saying such and such cam is approved. That's productive. You must work for management.

 

Get off your high horse. These guys are asking what the rules changes will likely be. As of now, there is no gaurantee that even headers will be allowed. Nothing is set in stone yet.

 

If we are sticking with the 5L motors in the third gen/fox mustangs why cant your engine builder finish the machine work and you toss a cam in the car?

 

I dont see why the engine builder cant finish the short block right now.

 

kyle

 

That was me......not Brian. That is exactly what i am doing. No whining/complaining. I'll be on track in a few months. Announcement just took me by surprise and was looking for info.

 

oops. I r computer stupid.

 

Dude I'm in the same boat as you. I have been running the stock L03 TBI for two seasons. What a under powered pig. ha ha.

 

I have 3 305s sitting in the shop waiting for a rebuild. I just need to know if we are sticking with the 5L motors or not before I touch one of them

 

I suspect the spec carb wont change and it looks like the cam/intake will change. Looks like I will run the pooper L03 next year as I dont have the cash to do it twice. Sounds like a good time to work on the rest of the car and just drive the snot out of it with the 150hp boat anchor under the hood.

 

kyle

[K Shaw]

On the 305 front we're looking to start with 1.6 rockers and shorties, plus a different intake for the carbed 305s. If that comes up short we'll step up with an intake (TPI) then a cam. We also have a lot of thoughts around 350s to provide a good alternative.

 

If the 350 is considered for the Camaro, the 351 should probably be on the table for the Mustang. If restricting down is the solution for one platform, it might be appropriate for the other. Not saying that a 350 OR a 351 should be required; just one of the options.

 

Just a thought. (no whining here )

 

thanks,

chris

 

A 351 swap into a fox stang requires a bunch of new parts and it gets pretty costly.

 

kyle

[jeffburch]

Hmmm, 23 months since this was announced (while we were at Nat's '06) and no R&D 'til now.

I still say no one at the top cares what happens to the core of what was cmc, the five liters.

 

sincerely,

jb

[cmc35]

not really and i'll tell you why, the 302 Ford is a much better design cubic inch for cubic in than the 305. semtrical ports go a long way.

the 302 is easily getting to the number, and cheaply. the 305 on theother hand isnt easily getting there and it may end up not being cheap. for $1800, a GM long block 350 crate motor can be had. so at somepoint its cheaper to let them go 350 than to put lipstick on a pig.

as for the 351, not sure you will find a Ford crate motor long block 351 for $1800.

 

I'm the first to admit I don't know anything about the 305. But it's not totally accurate to say that the 302 can easily get to the number, and cheaply; based on what has been posted, it's been a struggle for quite a few of us to get to the CMC number.

 

-chris

[Glenn]

not really and i'll tell you why, the 302 Ford is a much better design cubic inch for cubic in than the 305. semtrical ports go a long way.

the 302 is easily getting to the number, and cheaply. the 305 on theother hand isnt easily getting there and it may end up not being cheap. for $1800, a GM long block 350 crate motor can be had. so at somepoint its cheaper to let them go 350 than to put lipstick on a pig.

as for the 351, not sure you will find a Ford crate motor long block 351 for $1800.

 

I'm the first to admit I don't know anything about the 305. But it's not totally accurate to say that the 302 can easily get to the number, and cheaply; based on what has been posted, it's been a struggle for quite a few of us to get to the CMC number.

 

 

-chris

thats true given the CURRENT limitations. but w/ the allowable changes coming for the 260hp number the 302 will have little to no issue in doing so. in fact, i think a small possibility that some of the EFI cars may need a restrictor plate.

[King Matt1548534716]

No one has talked about torque or area under the curve. All of the discussion has been about achieving peak HP numbers, which look great on a dyno sheet and bench-racing on the internet, but it's not going to win races when 302s and 305s are down 20-40 lb-ft in the mid-range compared to a 350. The likelihood is that 3rd gens will at least have the option to get the advantage of those cubic inches through an engine swap. At this point, the Ford 5.0s will not have that option and without a weight break, it's my opinion they will be at a significant disadvantage to the 350ci combos unless they get one, same for the 305 GMs.

 

A 351 swap is impractical, but a 347 stroker is an reasonable option. I don't really like the idea of too many people needing to build new engines, but it's an option that should be put up for consideration.

 

There are a couple of cylinder head options being considered for the 305 that will ensure they have no problem making power equal to the 5.0L Fords, BTW.

[camaro_1le]

There are a couple of cylinder head options being considered for the 305 that will ensure they have no problem making power equal to the 5.0L Fords, BTW.

 

I was thinking the Vortec heads would be a good option on the 305. But that would require a new TPI lower intake and head machining. Combining those two items is going to run north of $1000. Time permitting, I am pretty sure I can track down a used LT1 for less than that. Not sure which year would be the best fit for the car...OBDI and such.

[snakebit]

A 351 swap is impractical, but a 347 stroker is an reasonable option. I don't really like the idea of too many people needing to build new engines, but it's an option that should be put up for consideration.

 

There are a couple of cylinder head options being considered for the 305 that will ensure they have no problem making power equal to the 5.0L Fords, BTW.

 

I think the 331 stroker is more reliable (so I've heard). The 305 is a long stroke motor, I don't believe torque is an issue, it needs to breathe better. I agree with Matt, looks like a better head would bring the HP up.

 

Anything us mod motor guys need to know yet?