ls168camaro Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I would like to know the reasoning behind the decision to allow huge brakes, 13" rotor, for CMC 2010. My understanding was the upgrade was allowed in CMC2 because of the heavier weights of some of the cars. Well now that the weights are going to come down do we still need this upgrade? Would it not help the group as a whole to follow the CMC brake rule? Doesn't seem to follow the low cost CMC mantra to offer the option of $2k brake kits when it seems nobody was complaining about their brakes before or am I wrong? Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Schotz Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I'm kinda with Bryan on this one... Ultimately... just allowing the LS1/C5 Calipers... on up to 12"... seems like enough to me for cars weighing 3300 ish pounds. Only thing I'd like to recommend... is if we could add 'C6' 2 Piston PBR calipers. As the C5's become rarer, and more C6 guys upgrade to Z-06 calipers... these can be had very inexpenisvely, and are mostly the same as LS1 & C5 Corvette Z-06 etc... calipers. But the cost of the 4 piston and 13" alternatives... could proabably be better spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Stone1548534713 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 On the mustang I have to spend money to have the thirteen inch rotors cut down to twelve, so my cost will go down not up. Four pistons does seem like overkill and expensive for a car with only 260hp and 3300lbs. The cobra brakes work great. Chevys have the brakes off of LS1 cars, dual pistons are factory, and they also work great, so where is the problem? Why all the complaints about brakes? You don't have to spend big bucks and you shouldn't. Buying high dollar aftermarket brakes should be discouraged and not allowed. Both manufacturers make very adequate braking systems that are cost effective. PS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc35 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Most likely, 17" wheels will be allowed in the CMC of 2010. It will be a little heavier to switch from 16 to 17", but as an SN95 owner, I can say it will be very nice to have the option of using stock 13" Cobra rotors, instead of paying a fortune for 12" specials. However, wrt the calipers, I don't see any justification for permitting 4-piston. -chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 The 12" Crown Vic rotors work great and can be had from any standard auto parts store for about $45-50 each. I've used them for two years with no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 What kind of calipers do the Fords run? Are the LS1 2 piston calipers and 12" rotors comparable to what you guys run? What is the 13" option or 4 piston option for the Fords? GM's would have to spend at least $2k for a bigger braket setup-not very cost effective as I didn't know people were having issues with brakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Schotz Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I agree w/ PS on the 13" for Cobra's... I forgot about those being standard... So maybe you just allow the rule to 'allow' for 13" Rotors... but keep the Calipers in line with the OEM 2 Piston makes that are out there. Peace, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 All CMC Ford's running SN95 spindles use essentially a Cobra brake setup with either 13" rotors (standard on all 1994-2004 Cobras) cut down to 12", or the 12" Crown Vic rotors (or the allowable 2-piece rotor setup). CV's run ~$90 a pair, off the shelf from nearly any parts store. 13" Cobra rotors are ~$130-140 a pair prior to being cut down. 1994-2004 Cobra, the 1LE 3rd gen, and the early C4 "heavy duty/Grand Sport" brake package all use the same 2 piston PBR caliper (do some searching on this site....there's a very interesting thread that actually has some great tech mixed in). In 1999, Ford moved to a slightly larger piston (40mm vs. the early 38mm), and changed the banjo bolt threads from fine to coarse. The bracket is modified (milled and new holes drilled) to move the caliper down for the 12" rotor. Bryan - it wouldn't only be the GM's spending ~$2000 for the big brake option. The A/S kit is ~$1700, but the way the rule is written right now (ANY single line 4-piston caliper), a racer could buy a ~$2500 Stoptech kit and bolt it to their CMC car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 i'm w/ Bryan on this one. 12" and twin piston brakes are all we really need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I was opposed to this initially, and I'm still on the fence. There is a good case to be made for using some of the relatively inexpensive racing 4-piston calipers, like a Wilwood Forged Super Light, Outlaw, etc. and adapting them to the stock spindles and rotors. These use very affordable generic pad shapes that have more available compounds, are much cheaper than the OE-style pads we use from Carbo, Hawk, etc. and last much longer because the pads are larger and thicker. So the upside is better calipers and cheaper, longer-lasting pads. Some A sedan guys who made the upgrade when they switched their rules to allow these type of brakes are saying they get a full season out of a single set of $150 pads. On pure technical merit, I like the idea of using real race brake parts. The downside is that it does increase initial buy-in cost and strays from the historical production-based "intent" of the series. Another downside is that even though the intention is for people to use the relatively inexpensive entry level parts that fit the rule, it is open enough that somebody will go out and spend $3500 on brakes and there will be a big fuss over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Thanks for the info guys. I didn't know what the ford guys used and what was available as an upgrade. Doesn't sound like there is an affordable upgrade for either platform? Matt-I could understand if there was an economical alternative or if there were issues with calipers/pads In my short time here I haven't seen alot of issues so others could chime in. I think most are able to run a season on a OE style pad that is under $150 already so I don't see the reason to upgrade. I'm pretty sure I will be able to and I weigh around 3,400. CMC is suppossed to be about as many factory parts as possible and limit costs. Doesn't seem like allowing people the option of spending $2-4000 for upgraded brakes follows that logic. I see it also as a deterrent to others looking at an entry level class with limited costs. Others please post up your thoughts as well as good reasons for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 In my short time here I haven't seen alot of issues so others could chime in. I think most are able to run a season on a OE style pad that is under $150 already so I don't see the reason to upgrade. Ehh....not quite. Although some folks are able to get a season, or nearly that with one set of pads, I've never been able to accomplish that myself. I get 2 full events, possibly 3 (depending on the track) on one set of Carbotech XP10's....a tad better than the Cobalt's I used to run. Much of brake pad longevity is directly related to pad bedding procedures and driving style - some are harder on brakes than others. Without a doubt, it would be beneficial for me to learn a better/different braking style....it's just something I haven't been successful at doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 I'm pretty sure I will be able to and I weigh around 3,400. If you do, it will be because you are not even close to maximizing the braking potential of your car. Or because a full season is only about 3 events for you. Regardless of the results people are getting from the current brake systems, which I agree are adequate, better calipers with cheaper, longer-lasting pads will be more cost-effective in the long run. These are economical alternatives. do some research and you will find that the Wilwood FSL calipers cost about $159 bucks and the pads are much cheaper than the PBR-style pads. If you can source an inexpensive adapter to use them on stock rotors, it's a cheap upgrade that will pay itself back within a season or two. If the rule was written in such a way that it limited the choices to only those the directors had in mind when they wrote it, I would be even more in favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffburch Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Matt, can I fit those Wilwoods under a 16" wheel? jb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 They use them and other similar calipers in A Sedan with the 16 inch wheels, so I would say yes, but it's going to depend on specific offsets and spoke clearance. Might want to talk to Al. I think he's got something up his sleeve with Wilwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Bryan, FWIW I have 3 events on my pads (1 being Hallett) and I doubt they will last the next full event. Excluding Hallett I think 4-weeks is doable for my pads. Historically I get 3-4 events / set. I do not like the idea of $2k for front brakes but if we can fab up an option as MK is describing then I would like to try the setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichV Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 In the ford camp it makes sense from a cost perspective. I would rather just do the 13s even if they are overkill. I'd probably not if a direct 12" setup was standard on the Stangs. Shoot, my 11" SVO brake setup seem adequate for now. Once I learn to drive better, it may not be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 If you can lock your wheels up w/12" brakes, you don't need to upgrade. The only benefit will be resistance to fading. This isn't a required upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 i'm sure people know its not required. i think the big fear is that for some possible unforeseen reason the 13" and 4 piston set-up will prove to be a "must have" to run up front. at that point it become "required". i have no plans to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted July 27, 2008 Author Share Posted July 27, 2008 Matt-what did the directors have in mind when they wrote the rule? That would help with the reasoning behind the rule I would think. The new wilwood kit that they came out with specifically for SCCA A-Sedan is $2k, there is a less expensive version for 1,600 but I believe there are some out there who say stay away from that setup? I could be wrong but I think its going to take a long time to recoup that $2k investment. How much cheaper are the pads and rotors? Seems a better investment would be to actually invest the $2k. Please illustrate to me how it will be cheaper in the long run. Matt-I have 4 race weekends on my pads this season and they are good to go. Earlier in the season I was actually overbraking. I am working on not overbraking and trying to learn the ability to scrub speed off in the turn. Maybe its something you should work on so you don't go through your brakes as quickly and ultimately improve your lap times. Mosty-thanks for the info with your setup as you are one Fast ford driver. Hate to see what you could do if your car was at the limits of power but I respect you for not running illegal stuff. Crown vic rotors sounds like a smart move. Its great to be able to get parts at most any auto parts store. Glenn is right that certainly there will be someone who does the upgrade and is running at the front. Then others will consider it a must have. I think that will be a deterrent to people looking to get into the series as it was designed to be as cost effective as possible. bsim-are you sure that just because you can lock up your brakes the only benefit to an upgrade is resistance to fade? Would still like to hear more from the directors concerning the reasoning behind this rule change and as Matt suggested the intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleydave Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 If you can lock your wheels up w/12" brakes, you don't need to upgrade. The only benefit will be resistance to fading. This isn't a required upgrade. 100% agree and I hope it does not happen! However, it can result in better feel/easier modulation, and some people will be faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well, actually, the reasoning behind a rule doesn't change the fact that it is a rule - so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Search any of mitch's post from a few years ago - same thing. If you can lock your brakes, how does more help? Sure, some fast guys will get them, but that doesn't mean it's now added to the cost of entry. I ran at least two years on 10.5" single pistons and at the time had a best finish of 4th. Did the Baer upgrade get me podiums? Nope. Let's estimate that Wilwood roundy-round pads can be had a 50% of C5/LS1 pads. The $2k would become cost effective after about 10 sets of pads. That's over 8 seasons worth of pads for me. I (along with Glenn) will not be doing it. The $2,000 for a BB package would be much better spent on extra weekends of track time or coaching, but that doesn't make sense to a lot of guys (who think that $$ buys finishing positions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well, actually, the reasoning behind a rule doesn't change the fact that it is a rule - so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Search any of mitch's post from a few years ago - same thing. Brad is right Bryan ... trying to figure out the "why'" will only frustrate you even more. Ever see the movie Tommy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakebit Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 The Mustang Cobras are a legal CMC2 car, in the proposed rule changes I'm sure they will still be legal. They come standard with 13" front rotors, I'm assuming this is why the rule is in place. I'm upgrading my GT to Cobra 13" brakes at a very small cost. 12" in no cheaper, I can get 13" solid Brembos from Tirerack for $65, and I don't have to pay someone to cut them down. I do think that the 4 piston rule needs to go away, that is where this could get expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 If you can lock your wheels up w/12" brakes, you don't need to upgrade. The only benefit will be resistance to fading. This isn't a required upgrade. There's one thing I don't understand about comments like this, not just in this brake thead, but regarding all the upcoming changes. Previously, if someone asked to do something that was not a performance advantage but wasn't specifically allowed in the rules, such as changing out the stock plactic cowl to a sheet metal one, the response was always no. The resaoning being that if you did that and started to win races, then everyone would feel they had to do the same thing and that means people spend unnecessary money. Now, it's flipped 180 degrees. "You don't have to run 17's, 275s, 13" 4 pistons, 260hp". If the winners have these changes, won't the rest of the field "feel" they have to do the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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