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Reasoning For Big Brake Upgrade for CMC 2010


ls168camaro

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If the winners have these changes, won't the rest of the field "feel" they have to do the same?
Only the sheeple that don't understand that the front-runners are there because of ability, not which parts they have.
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Brad,

I know that, you know that, don't get me wrong. Not trying to single you out as I've seen that statement brought up multiple times. I won't be out buying 17's and bigger brakes.

But what does change is that now you can't use that same arguement for why the rules do not allow things such as a custom steel sheetmetal cowl over the factory plastic cowl and other non-performance mods.

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Of course...

 

It's not an issue of non-performance enhancing mods - understanding that 12" brakes came on older cars, and 13" on newer models. So, if they're both going to be on track, do you keep the 12" rule, and make all the new cars buy new (smaller) brakes, or raise the limit to 13"?

 

Since these came on (respective) stock models, it's not like adding something that isn't OEM to a car.

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As Brad stated this rule is already in place for CMC 2 - see 8.35.9, specifically 3c and 4c. It is not fair to those who have already made the swap to now make their brakes illegal.

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Ok so here is the reason we did it.

The new cars and also the Cobra's from 10-15 years ago had the 13" set up from the factory so we thought why would we go backwards and with the 17" wheel coming in play it made even more sense.

Then the 4 piston caliper 13" rotor rule came in because of the cheap pads you can buy and you can recoup your investment fairly fast.

I agree if you can't buy a nice pkg cheap then stay with those factory setups that work well.

So its really a choice spend more now but save huge on pads ($80-$90 that last forever) or spend nothing and keep buying expensive pads($140-$200 that last 3-5 weekends.).

We were just trying to give you a option.

Either way its a personal choice just like wheels( cost $50-$400).

Hope that helps you guys out a bit.

Tony Guaglione

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Ok so here is the reason we did it.

The new cars and also the Cobra's from 10-15 years ago had the 13" set up from the factory so we thought why would we go backwards and with the 17" wheel coming in play it made even more sense.

Then the 4 piston caliper 13" rotor rule came in because of the cheap pads you can buy and you can recoup your investment fairly fast.

I agree if you can't buy a nice pkg cheap then stay with those factory setups that work well.

So its really a choice spend more now but save huge on pads ($80-$90 that last forever) or spend nothing and keep buying expensive pads($140-$200 that last 3-5 weekends.).

We were just trying to give you a option.

Either way its a personal choice just like wheels( cost $50-$400).

Hope that helps you guys out a bit.

Tony Guaglione

 

Makes sense to me ... thanks for that insight, Tony.

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Matt-I have 4 race weekends on my pads this season and they are good to go. Earlier in the season I was actually overbraking. I am working on not overbraking and trying to learn the ability to scrub speed off in the turn. Maybe its something you should work on so you don't go through your brakes as quickly and ultimately improve your lap times.

Bryan, I looked up some of your race results on Mylaps, and I'm pretty sure I don't need to take any braking or driving advice from you.

 

Talk to Al Fernandez and you will understand what his intention was as far as this rule goes. Sure, you can buy a setup for 2 grand with 2-piece rotors, pads, calipers, brackets, etc. Or you can piece one together using stock rotors for a lot less. Or you can do nothing at all and keep the brakes you have if they have been working fine.

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Bryan, I looked up some of your race results on Mylaps, and I'm pretty sure I don't need to take any braking or driving advice from you.

 

 

I don't recall Bryan being towed in with a starter dragging along behind. Glass houses ...

 

Bryan did quite well at Hallett. He's been really hamstrung because he bought one of those nifty "sorted" cars that so many speak highly of. But, he's getting the car sorted.

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I don't recall Bryan being towed in with a starter dragging along behind. Glass houses ...

Good point. I had a mechanical problem. So what's his excuse, and yours, for being backmarkers?

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I don't recall Bryan being towed in with a starter dragging along behind. Glass houses ...

Good point. I had a mechanical problem. So what's his excuse, and yours, for being backmarkers?

 

His? Seat time and a poorly constructed car.

 

Mine? Doing enough to win. No extra points for 1/2 place.

 

Yours?

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Mine? Doing enough to win.

Winning, or collecting manties? Cause that's what you get down in Tejas when a CMC-2 car gets beat by more than half the CMC field, isn't it?

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Thanks to those that actually posted useful information.

Bsim-I understand that it is a rule but what is wrong with trying to find out the intent of the rule as Matt eluded to earlier but then can't keep on topic. I wanted to know if it was just because of the heavier weights of CMC2 and might be eliminated in the future. If it is to reduce costs over the long term then I hoped that could be illustrated. You are right that being able to recoup and investment over 8 seasons is hardly worth it. Thats why I thought there might be other reasons that I didn't know about.

Now I haven't really seen any compelling evidence as to why we need to continue this rule. I would like to think if the directors see that nobody is in favor of the rule that it could possibly be eliminated. Isn't that a reason why rules are changed.

Nomex-racing and rules changing isn't always fair.

Tony-appreciate the info. I still don't see that you can recoup your investment very fast. I just hope someone comes up with an inexpensive setup before I order a set of Stop Techs. This just doesn't seem to follow with the entry level low cost mantra and could be a deterrent for people looking to get into the series.

 

Matt-pretty interesting that you as a director feel the need to come into this and start taking shots at people. Maybe you would be better off trying to help people. Or spend time doing productive things to develop the series. Or maybe you just don't want any competition where you are? I tried to give you something to think about just like Adam did. Though I guess if you didn't need any advice you would have been on the podium and wouldn't feel the need to make your mylaps times confidential. What are you trying to hide?

I don't have or need an excuse for being a backmarker. I am happy at the progress I have made considering I only have 7 weekends of track time in my whole life. Last year I ran a completely stock suspension in DE. This year I was also way down on power for the first two events of this year. I'm sure you noticed me getting closer to the pack every event, especially the last one at Hallett. I am very fortunate to have a great group of fast racers in Texas who are always willing to help out with advice. I am confident that I will only get faster with seat time and better car setups.

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Mine? Doing enough to win.

Winning, or collecting manties? Cause that's what you get down in Tejas when a CMC-2 car gets beat by more than half the CMC field, isn't it?

 

LOL ... I guess. Texas CMC2 cars grid in back for every race by choice.

 

Was able to squeeze out a 1:29 at Hallett ... track record is a 1:28. Not bad for a 3400 LT1 just barely over CMC power. So, I confident enough to do what I have to do.

 

You must be bored. Trying really hard to show up a rookie and pick a fight with me.

 

But go ahead and make CMC proud.

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Now I haven't really seen any compelling evidence as to why we need to continue this rule.
Not true, what you've seen (and read) is that there's no compelling reason to actually "upgrade". So don't.

 

If you have the coin, feel free. If you (like many of us here) would rather put the $$ elsewhere, go ahead. Just because it's a rule doesn't make it a law.

 

The "reasoning" was explained. The newer cars came with bigger brakes. The decision was made to allow these cars to run without removing their brakes (down to 12"). If the series allowed big brakes on newer cars and not on the older ones, it would be perceived as an advantage. Now, you can spend $2k to find out it's not.

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Can't everybody play nice?

 

My impression over the last 12 months is the following, in no particular order:

1. In the Mid Atlantic region, the CMC cars frequently out-qualify the CMC2 AND the AI AND the AIX cars that all are much better equipped [brakes and otherwise].

2. The debate will continue til the sun refuses to rise whether a 'slow' driver in a 'fast' car can beat a 'fast' driver in a 'slow' car.

3. This is not an inexpensive hobby/sport, but IN GENERAL the CMC series is one of the most accessible dollar-wise to get behind the wheel of an American V8 road racing car.

4. You can spend 20 grand on building a CMC car, or 10 grand on a used one, and neither will guarantee you a win if you don't know how to drive it, no matter how big your brakes are [or your torque curve or your balls/ovaries or fill in the blank].

5. There will CERTAINLY MOST DEFINITELY POSITIVELY be drivers that change NOTHING re: their brakes, and they'll still be faster than the drivers that spend how ever much money to 'upgrade' their brakes.

6. Brakes are just one factor in the overall scheme of things, and this change is NOT a 'paradigm shift'.

 

So, in conclusion, whatever the new rule will be [once this painful process is over], some will drop the coin on a fancy schmancy kit and still suck; others will do nothing and still win [or still suck]; and some may go faster with the new equipment and they may actually save some money over the long term on pads/rotors, but either way from my perspective whatever the rule looks like in its final form will not fundamentally alter, nor ruin, the series.

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Amen Mr Dawes!!!

You got it so 100% correct, I just dont get why everyone else that complains so much does not get it .

Just get your ass out there and drive, the good driver will always beat the other car that has all the fancy crap on it with a moderate driver.

Maybe they will get it now

Thanks,

Tony Guaglione

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Tony, great clarification, thanks.

 

Bryan, Matt was just being sarcastic, he's ok...no matter what Todd says!

 

I've been emailing back and forth with Wilwood for about a week regarding their new brake package. Its a radial mount four piston Superlite over a two piece 12.2"x1.25 rotor. Their original intent was to meet SCCA rules which require a 16" wheel, hence the rotor choice.

 

Wilwood has two "kits": one with slotted rotors and Thermlock pistons and another with plain rotors and stainless pistons. The plain rotors and stainless piston setup is $1575 for calipers, rotors, hats, all the hardware, pads, brake lines, fittings...everything except fluid and safety wire. After my discussions with Wilwood I see no reason to splurge on the more expensive pistons.

 

These should be available now for SN95 spindles and 4th gens. They're working up slightly different piston sizes which I think are more appropriate for 4th gens so call me before you buy if you want the skinny. By the way, there's a guy on 3rd gen.org (EB Miller) selling a similar setup for 3rd gens for only $1450, though I believe he's using lug mount instead of radial mount calipers.

 

I'll close by reiterating what Tony said: we enabled this option because even though it is relatively pricy up front you will pay it off over time since pads and rotors are cheap and maintenance will drop. Also, keep in mind that 1600 price tag includes off the shelf hats and rotors. Two piece hats and rotors were always legal, but there was nothing off the shelf, meaning the guys that had them spent $600 to get them! That said, everyone gets different life out of their brakes. Just ask Mitch! This gives everyone an option that should result in a worry free braking system.

 

Keep in mind also that the Ford guys have it much easier: 13" rotors are standard. For the GM camp, getting anything above 12 requires an aftermarket braket at least. A C5 conversion kit runs $750 without pads, without brake lines, and without rotors (never mind two piece ones...)

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Dawes, thanks for sharing your observation, sans b/s.

 

I am in 100% agreement with Tony and performance in our region shows his belief to be true.

 

 

Our current champion uses stock 10.5" diameter rotors with single piston iron calipers. He is a phenomenal driver. Would he go faster with the other brake options? maybe, maybe not.

 

Try to think tof the new guy building a car and perhaps he needs new brake parts. He might find 4 piston calipers on ebay for a steal...thus saving money. Just because someones lacks creativity or patience, doesnt mean that these cars cant still be built on budget and be on the podium.

 

It comes down to the driver.

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Amen Mr Dawes!!!

You got it so 100% correct, I just dont get why everyone else that complains so much does not get it .

 

I don't get it either.

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A C5 conversion kit runs $750 without pads, without brake lines, and without rotors (never mind two piece ones...)

 

Yes but C5 rotors are $35.00 each at Rockauto.com. These are Raybestos directional veined rotors. Two years ago they were only twenty bucks each!

 

JJ

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My experiance with C5 rotors was not good. They have a tendancy to crack. I maybe got 2 races out of a set. I have also heard and seen other people with similar experiences with them.

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Bryan, FWIW I have 3 events on my pads (1 being Hallett) and I doubt they will last the next full event.

Excluding Hallett I think 4-weeks is doable for my pads. Historically I get 3-4 events / set.

 

I do not like the idea of $2k for front brakes but if we can fab up an option as MK is describing then I would like to try the setup.

 

If you are switching to 17" wheels...the SVT focus Brembo calipers and cobra rotors can be had for around $700.... search corner carvers. Either way, the 2000 R setup is down to $899 at most places now. That's 4 piston caliper and standard 13" cobra rotors....and what a lot of guys use in AI...

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Al-thanks for some clarification. Mitch really brought up some of the best reasons to me. Its been touched on but for someone who is looking to build a car and needs to upgrade their brakes this could give them a decent option depending on how much money they would have to spend for either route. Meaning an LT1 car usually upgrades to ls1 or c5 brakes. They might compare the costs of both upgrades and feel that it is the best decision for the long term to do the big upgrade. Though the ratio is much higher for people against 4 pistons who posted.

 

What I don't understand is people not wanting to openly discuss the reasoning or intent of a rule. I am not complaining but I am just looking for knowledge and understanding of both sides. I let it be known which side I am on (and I was not the only one) but would like to hear both. Some here have been racing in this group for a long time. Please don't automatically think a rookie is complaining when trying to get some clarification. That will just do a good job of discouraging people from joining this series. One of the big reasons I became involved is because of the help and advice I saw from the Texas group. If a rookie has questions its fair to assume that others will have the same questions later. So, when someone newer than myself asks me a question about a certain area I hope that I can intelligiently answer the question and possibly explain both sides to them so that they will understand.

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Nice comments, Bryan - thanks.

 

Sometimes, it's easy to forget that a new person really wants info, as opposed to pushing an agenda.

 

 

-chris

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