Travis G1548534735 Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Factory Five Challenge has been mentioned several times in both for and against arguments on the 275s. Just to clarify, as a current FFC racer, we run the 255-17 as our spec tire. There has also been a repeated cry for data on this thread, so here's a link of the tire testing Factory Five did prior to announcing the spec tire size two years ago. http://www.ffrchallenge.com/tire_test_2007/tire_test_2007.html I realize the data is for a lighter car with a rearward weight bias, but since the comparison keeps being made....here's the data. BTW - I'm new here, and will be running a '96 Mustang in CMC-2 with the Mid-Atlantic region next season. edited for spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redding CMCer Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I think there is a misunderstanding as to the tire size question. The biggest tire you will be able to run is the 275/17s. You are allowed to run any size smaller than that if you wish but nothing bigger. Also the request Al made for Silly Season is for 2009 only...Right Al? No sense muddying the waters with questions about 2010. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Thanks Travis. How clever of the FFR guys to do actual testing and post up the raw data and not just a bunch of conclusions. Interesting concept. So the 255 was faster than the 275 ... my guess is the difference in unsprung weight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 I think everybody (myself included) needs to go back and read the following parts of the first post by Al. Maybe condensing and arranging it in this manner will make more sense. ...we formally request all racers to submit rules changes requests, via email to myself ([email protected]). All requests get added to a spreadsheet, and then each is discussed among the directors and either incorporated into the rules or rejected. ...what we are mostly looking for is thoughts/comments on existing rules we know are staying that can stand to be made more clear. ...please write in with a solution and logic around it, not just an observation. "Change rule xxx to state yyy because zzz" is a lot more useful than "rule xxx is confusing". ... keep in mind that the focus of rules changes is to make the book easier to understand, to make cars/racing safer, to make cars more reliable. ...everything going on around CMC-CMC2 merger for 2010... ...is a sepparate issue. Al has specifically requested us to email our suggestions for 2009 rule changes to him along with our reasons for making the changes. That's fine because he will essentially get the short list of what we've been "discussing" here. But, isn't it also fair from the racers perspective to then ask why/how a certain rule came about? I know. It's that understanding thing again. I just also happen to be in favor increased understanding. Please, please, please, can we all stay on track and civilly discuss the CMC/CMC-2 rules and possible changes to these rules in 2009 along with their merits and shortcomings on this forum without the discussion turning personal? I too got caught up in the flurry of postings when they began to turn personal (sorry! ). I guess lunch did me good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Thanks Travis. How clever of the FFR guys to do actual testing and post up the raw data and not just a bunch of conclusions. Interesting concept. So the 255 was faster than the 275 ... my guess is the difference in unsprung weight? It could have been greater rolling resistance and a larger cross section creating more aerodynamic drag in addition to an actual difference in hadling related to an increase in unsprung weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Did anyone happen to notice the 16"x7" Pony wheels, 225 wide tires, and stock sized '86 Mustang rotors/drums we were running in 2008? I did - and it is a huge disadvantage, but fun to drive Well, Dave B. had a chance to drive our car, The Pumpkin, at Hallet in 2008. He has more driving experience than Dave T. and I put together, so I'll take that as an "expert opinion" officially declaring that 16x7 wheels shod with 225 wide rubber with stock (and correct to the year) front rotors/rear drum brakes with upgraded pads were inferior and at a definite disadvantage to other cars on the track that had wider tires and bigger/all disc brakes. (we won't mention also being underpowered here) Bottom line...race cars are fun even if they aren't competetive. We met all of our team goals we set out to meet this first year racing in CMC...1) get out there, 2) get some experience, 3) don't break, 4) have some fun. We've upped the goals for 2009 to include being more competetive. However, with next year being a transition year before the rules are changed in 2010, we can't help but turn an eye towards the future and wonder if we will continue to meet our goals. We hope so. As such, we would like to see all of the 2009 changes discussed and hashed out as quickly as possible IN ADDITION to the 2010 rules coming together ASAP. Team Incidental Contact will have our suggestions for rule changes in 2009 emailed to Al by the end of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasa-rm Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Did anyone happen to notice the 16"x7" Pony wheels, 225 wide tires, and stock sized '86 Mustang rotors/drums we were running in 2008? I did - and it is a huge disadvantage, but fun to drive Well, Dave B. had a chance to drive our car, The Pumpkin, at Hallet in 2008. He has more driving experience than Dave T. and I put together, so I'll take that as an "expert opinion" officially declaring that 16x7 wheels shod with 225 wide rubber with stock (and correct to the year) front rotors/rear drum brakes with upgraded pads were inferior and at a definite disadvantage to other cars on the track that had wider tires and bigger/all disc brakes. (we won't mention also being underpowered here) P.S. Do something about a limited slip or shim the hell out of the one in the car cause it ain't workin. Love, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichV Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Well, Dave B. had a chance to drive our car, The Pumpkin, at Hallet in 2008. He has more driving experience than Dave T. and I put together, so I'll take that as an "expert opinion" officially declaring that 16x7 wheels shod with 225 wide rubber with stock (and correct to the year) front rotors/rear drum brakes with upgraded pads were inferior and at a definite disadvantage to other cars on the track that had wider tires and bigger/all disc brakes. (we won't mention also being underpowered here) Scott, I have like $26 in my car. It's an underpowered poopbox. But I'm gonna school you! 2 year old toyos. Worn out front end. My clutch only works 50% of the time. I have only 3 gears too. I'd stay with a 255 tire. 16 or 17. To get a 275 under a Fox is just too much tire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Agan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die. I will agree with that statement to a point. If my family has a history of heart disease at age 55, I don't go out and get a transplant at 45. No, but wouldn't you be smart enough to make changes to your lifestyle before you got to that point? We can sit here and wait for the newer cars to pick another race class to run in, or we can make room for them and be the class that they pick. We have 20 cars coming to the next East event in October. This entire thread is laughable to us out here. It's always the same guys complaining about the same issues. Have you ever thought why there are 70+ cars in the country, but the same half dozen guys are one's complaining and asking for changes? Could it possibly be that the majority of drivers across the country accept the pending changes? I can speak for our group out here....We agree with the direction Tony and Al are taking the series. We may not agree with every little point, but that's what we use the telephone or private e-mail for if we disagree. On a side note.......We love the big car numbers, 9.5 wheels, and big wings. Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 I like Kent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 In a manly CMC competitor way. Not that other thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Thats really funny Kent, because that is duplicate out here in the West coast. Must be a West Coast/East Coast thing...easy living go with the flow. Really though most are making a big deal out of small deals...its called too much available time on the computer. Cheers, Tony Guaglione Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasa-rm Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Must be a West Coast/East Coast thing...easy living go with the flow. Honestly it seems like the loudest complainers are the same ones that bother to show up at Nationals!!!!! Huh, guess that leaves out the east and west coasts!!! DOH!!! I hope I put enough smiles on that to not warrent getting smacked.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Thats really funny Kent, because that is duplicate out here in the West coast.Must be a West Coast/East Coast thing...easy living go with the flow. Really though most are making a big deal out of small deals...its called too much available time on the computer. Cheers, Tony Guaglione well not everyone thinks the same as you Tony. its getting old w/ regards to how everyone who agree's w/ you is right and everyone else is wrong. i've never seen a vote of any type on anything other than some comp ratio range stuff. nothing on brakes, wheels, tire sizes or anything. i've been a regional director since the start of 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmc79 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 ... Could it possibly be that the majority of drivers across the country accept the pending changes? ... Kent Or they agree with the comments and don't feel a need to repeat them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt1548534716 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 If I was a Mid Atlantic guy I'd probably love these proposed 2010 rules too. They might almost make most of your cars legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camaro_1le Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Honestly it seems like the loudest complainers are the same ones that bother to show up at Nationals!!!!! Huh, guess that leaves out the east and west coasts!!! DOH!!! I hope I put enough smiles on that to not warrent getting smacked.... Let's see pay $3500 and get knocked around by the same people whining and complaining about everything. No thanks. I would rather run a 15 race season in the MA and go hang with the SE boys when money allows. By the way, I don't like the wings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony G Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Glenn "well not everyone thinks the same as you Tony. its getting old w/ regards to how everyone who agree's w/ you is right and everyone else is wrong. i've never seen a vote of any type on anything other than some comp ratio range stuff. nothing on brakes, wheels, tire sizes or anything. i've been a regional director since the start of 2007." Really? Wow Glenn you have a real bad memory as you have been in the vote over 15 times.. do you want me to send you all the emails with your votes in them to refresh you memory..... I've got way too much to do,I'm once again done here. On to the next bone head thread.... Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Glenn"well not everyone thinks the same as you Tony. its getting old w/ regards to how everyone who agree's w/ you is right and everyone else is wrong. i've never seen a vote of any type on anything other than some comp ratio range stuff. nothing on brakes, wheels, tire sizes or anything. i've been a regional director since the start of 2007." Really? Wow Glenn you have a real bad memory as you have been in the vote over 15 times.. do you want me to send you all the emails with your votes in them to refresh you memory..... I've got way too much to do,I'm once again done here. On to the next bone head thread.... Tony email sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die. I will agree with that statement to a point. If my family has a history of heart disease at age 55, I don't go out and get a transplant at 45. No, but wouldn't you be smart enough to make changes to your lifestyle before you got to that point? Kent Making lifestyle changes is basically not giving up on the ticker you have until it's just not practical to salvage it, right? And Cody, same applies ... you monitor what your old ticker is doing till it's just not practical to keep the old one. Once that occurs, then you kick the old one to the curb and let the new one in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichV Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 But if you wait till it's too late there will probably be another race class for those cars, and our dinosaurs will surely not be in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 In a manly CMC competitor way. Not that other thing... Not that there is anything wrong with that ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted October 1, 2008 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2008 Well, he is from California Mitch Holy crap guys...dont you have some car prep to do? I think I've said it twice in this thread alone: 9.5" wheels were dropped in for current cmc2 due to wheel availability, and it'd be that way regardless of 275 or 255. Its just damn silly to limit it to 9" which dramatically cuts options and will eventually increase cost. Some of you Mustang guys might remember when there was a hubub about real 8" wheels not being available for you and people were clamoring for a rule change then...until we found plenty of options. I searched and searched, the only good option for a 9" wheel for a 4th gen (and eventually 3rd gens as I suspect they will end up stepping into 4th gen offsets for other reasons) is the factory SS wheels. Not good. We're not talking mustang gt production numbers here guys. Unless you're Mitch, finding a set that isnt chrome is a bitch. If anyone has evidence that would show otherwise I'm all ears, believe me. The 275s were allowed for CMC2 in April. There's a different thread on that from then. Considering the data published by ffr (thanks!!!) I have a hard time understanding why anyone would care. Get yourself 9" wheels and 255s and go win! Last note, its been made public plenty of times and even on this thread that on the table for 2010 for foxes is fender mods to deal with tires and offset their inherent narrowness. 275s etc are cmc2 only for 09. Now...thanks to all of you that have submitted requests to me formally. Some of those were lucid, well thought out suggestions. Overruled! Kidding! Geez! take it easy guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri-Agan Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 As far as 9.5's go, out here there are many hand-me-downs from other race classes that switched to a different size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Some of those were lucid, well thought out suggestions. Overruled! LOL, I love that movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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