Rules silly season - please read!

[roadracerwhite]

Now I don't know what these weigh, but it seems someone is making 17 x 8.5 wheels

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-18-BLACK-C4-C5-CORVETTE-CAMARO-FIREBIRD-WHEELS-RIMS_W0QQitemZ380066361964QQihZ025QQcategoryZ43958QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

this set also comes with 2 18s, but I would think you could order the wheels seperately.

 

Here are 4 new 17 x 9 painted ss wheels

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-Wheels-Rims-Brand-New_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ43956QQihZ012QQitemZ220287663704QQtcZphoto

 

I have a hard time believing the "hard to find" reasoning behind some of this.

[mitchntx1548534714]

thanks to all of you that have submitted requests to me formally. Some of those were lucid, well thought out suggestions. Overruled!.

 

You kinda look like Herman Munster ...

[mitchntx1548534714]

Here are 4 new 17 x 9 painted ss wheels

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-Wheels-Rims-Brand-New_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ43956QQihZ012QQitemZ220287663704QQtcZphoto

 

I have a hard time believing the "hard to find" reasoning behind some of this.

 

Just to be 100% clear ... those are replica wheels, not OEM. And they are a little heavier than OEM by a couple pounds. again, just to be 100% clear ...

 

BUT

 

If you know where to look, like on LS1tech, LS2 or LS1 dot coms, painted, OEM 10 spokes or painted 5 spokes can be had for a couple hundred bucks a set. They are typically damaged with curb rash, but the price is right.

[supermac]

you have to let the newer cars in or the series will die.

 

I will agree with that statement to a point.

 

If my family has a history of heart disease at age 55, I don't go out and get a transplant at 45.

 

No, but wouldn't you be smart enough to make changes to your lifestyle before you got to that point?

 

Kent

 

Making lifestyle changes is basically not giving up on the ticker you have until it's just not practical to salvage it, right?

 

And Cody, same applies ... you monitor what your old ticker is doing till it's just not practical to keep the old one.

 

Once that occurs, then you kick the old one to the curb and let the new one in.

 

Why are we kicking the old one's to the curb?

I like you Mitch I don't want to see you go, just cause you're old!

Lets get the new guys in as stock as possible and bring the old ones up to fighting shape.

We can use the new blood and the fewer classes the better.

I hate it when people ask for a new class that suits them and threaten to leave if you don't give it to them.

Chances are if they are a racer they will conform if they are not they will stay home, which is prolly what they would have done in the first place.

[King Matt1548534716]

Lets get the new guys in as stock as possible and bring the old ones up to fighting shape.

That's a great sound bite! But take it a step further. Help us write some rules that will actually achieve the goal of equalizing a Fox Mustang with an S197 Mustang. Not in theory, but in practice, because that among other things is something that must be done before 2010 and the hard work of actually doing it has not yet been started. So now is the time to stop talking and chip in.

[nasa-rm]

I'd like to solicit some input from those that are running the new SN197 chassis and the people who have gotten their Camaro body in whites from Chevy.

 

 

For the new cars owners:

 

Do you have a problem with stepping back to 13" (or 12") rotors?

 

How much work will it be to back down to the 260/300 (or whatever) power levels?

 

How much does the car weigh and how much problem was it getting the car down to minimum weight?

[supermac]

Matt,

What are the biggest short comings on the Fox?

 

These are my ideas Keep in mind I am Stupid and don't know much about Ford Chassis'

 

1. Some Cam and shorty header package for HP mods.

2. Width and fender mod guidelines to fit the bigger tires.

3. I am uncomfortable with giving concessions on the rear suspension because of the fact the you did so well with the same basic suspension on your car this year.

Did I miss anything?

 

Dave I don't think the newest Camaro's r going to be in CMC for a while.

 

I think the bigger brakes are a non-issue. I really think that going to 13" rotors is fairly cheap and easy for any chassis that wants to do it. Again I think the 12" brakes are plenty but if you think you need to go bigger have at it.

 

As far as weight is concerned I know that the 4th gens can get to 3200 no problem not so sure on the S197. Someone should ask Robin Burnett what he got his down 2. I know it is a AI car but it is a start.

I have never looked at one but JB wouldn't have said it would be his car of choice if it wasn't possible to get it down to weight.

 

Hp is really a chevy problem and I think a couple of guys have already solved that.

 

The new cars aren't the problem as far as I am concerned.

 

I will tell you and the Chevy guys are going to shoot me for this but a LS1 4th gen needs to be heavier cause it will be an unfair advantage.

[King Matt1548534716]

3. I am uncomfortable with giving concessions on the rear suspension because of the fact the you did so well with the same basic suspension on your car this year.

Thanks, but I'm terrified of the advantage the S197 has with it's massive track width and stock three-link rear suspension, not to mention a real strut front suspension with coilover springs. If you have ever looked at the front suspension on a 3-series BMW, that's what the S197 has. For just a baseline idea of what these cars can do, look at the new Mustang Challenge series. Those cars run a sealed engine that makes about 300RWHP, weight 3600 pounds, and run on a 255 tire and they are faster than any AI car on the same track on the same day. Granted they have 14-inch brakes with ABS and very good shocks, but if you put 13-inch brakes and cheaper shocks on them, they would be legal in CMC-2 with a restricter and Toyos.

 

As for Robin Burnett, he actually runs his car quite heavy to make maximum horsepower.

[supermac]

Aren't their tires a big part of those lap times?

And they have a fairly well tested Aero package. That included some wind tunnel time if I remember correctly.

[King Matt1548534716]

Sure, the BFG R1s are very sticky. It's not by any means an A-B comparison, but the fact is that the S197 is light years ahead of the 79-04 chassis and within a reasonable set of performance limitations like we have in CMC, it's going to be very hard to equalize them. This is not AI and nobody has the appetite to allow the kind of modifications it will take. I suppose we could saddle them with a huge weight penalty.

 

By sheer coincidence, the wing on the FR500S happens to be the same Crawford Composites design some of you may have seen at the 08 Nationals on a couple of CMC cars. Yeah, it works.

Edited October 1, 2008 by Guest

[supermac]

As for Robin Burnett, he actually runs his car quite heavy to make maximum horsepower.

 

I wouldn't konw anything about that.

[Alien]

Eligible Late Ford makes and models:

2005+ Ford Mustang GT (CMC-2 only)

 

Does this include all the Cobras and Shelbys and Roush cars too? They are technically still GTs right and sold by Ford dealeships?

[King Matt1548534716]

No. Technically there are no new "Cobras." They are the Shelby GT and GT-H (319-325HP), Shelby GT500 (500HP) and Shelby GT500KR (540HP). The standard Mustang GT is rated at 300HP with a 3-valve 4.6L. The GT500s are supercharged 4V 4.6L and 5.4L engines.

[roadracerwhite]

Here are 4 new 17 x 9 painted ss wheels

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-Wheels-Rims-Brand-New_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ43956QQihZ012QQitemZ220287663704QQtcZphoto

 

I have a hard time believing the "hard to find" reasoning behind some of this.

 

Just to be 100% clear ... those are replica wheels, not OEM. And they are a little heavier than OEM by a couple pounds. again, just to be 100% clear ...

 

BUT

 

If you know where to look, like on LS1tech, LS2 or LS1 dot coms, painted, OEM 10 spokes or painted 5 spokes can be had for a couple hundred bucks a set. They are typically damaged with curb rash, but the price is right.

 

So...we have just established that 17 x 9 in wheels are not hard to find for the gm crowd. OEM or aftermarket they are avaiable. Not as sweet as the deal you got, but still

 

And we know 8 and 9 in rims are in abundance for the ford crowd.

 

With that being said can we stick with the 255's and specify a 9 in rim width and slam the door on fender modifications that should be out of scope for CMC?

 

For me this class is about building an obtainable car to compete. I finally realized that there was no way I was going to get there in AI, and for CMCit is totally within reach. More and more people are going to realize that. The easier it is to get to the edge of the rules, the better off this class is. I want to look at my car at the end of the season and realize there is no modifications to be made, it is to edge of the rules, and there is nothing left to fabricate and/or buy.

 

That is why some of these things just seem completely out of scope for CMC and CMC2.

 

Wings, 4 piston Calipers, 9.5 in wide wheels, long tubes, etc.

 

It is all about perception. If the top 5 cars have a 2500 dollar set of long tube headers and a 5000 dollar set of brakes the perception will be that a new person entering the class will also need them. I don't believe that is where we want to go. Same goes with fenders mods, wings, air dams you name it.

 

Bryan

[bsim]

It is all about perception. If the top 5 cars have a 2500 dollar set of long tube headers and a 5000 dollar set of brakes the perception will be that a new person entering the class will also need them.

As I stated earlier, we can't legislate "stupid".

 

JB won the national title in a 3rd gen - why isn't everyone clamoring for them? Glenn did the same in a 4th gen.

 

Maybe we need "mod penalties" for good finishes? Win a race, lose the 13" brakes. Finish on the podium - wings must be removed. Finish near the top, reduce wheel width by 2".

 

That way, all of the good drivers will have cars with next to no mods, and only the slow guys can have big wings. Will that help with "perception"?

[CMC#11]

Bryan,

IMO fender mods are a must for the "fox" whether they run 8", 9", or 9.5" wheels.

It is hard to keep things equal when you have to race against people w/ 74" of track width and you are stuck w/ 71-72". Running a 9" wheel just makes things even more difficult.

[Tri-Agan]

If the top 5 cars have a 2500 dollar set of long tube headers and a 5000 dollar set of brakes the perception will be that a new person entering the class will also need them.

 

Bryan

 

Good points Brad.....Maybe we should make CMC the first Socialist race series. That way everyone automatically gets awarded first place regardless of how hard they work. We wouldn't want someone to feel bad because one driver is smarter than another, or one driver is better than another, or has more bells and whistles on their car than another. Let's steal from those that work hard and give to those that don't.

 

The rational about $2,500 for headers doesn't hold water with me. We can already legally tune our exhaust for a better curve without spending a lot of money. If one guy has money and wants to spend 2,500 on custom headers, so what. If a guy is smart enough to tune their exhaust with various length pipe and exhaust restrictions, so be it.

 

Most guys with unlimited budgets wouldn't pick this class anyway, so the fire alarming about someone spending $5,000 on brakes is really over nothing. Even if someone did come in with that kind of money, they better be able to drive too.

 

I can see it now....the next thing we're going to hear is that "what if guys do wind tunnel testing for wings."

 

Let's get serious. There are many hard decisions to be made. Let's skip the trivial stuff and get back to the big stuff.

 

With American Iron switching to over to allow 18's, there are a lot of 17 x 9.5's available for the Fords. In a situation like this, I would rather have 9.5's and have more options on the table for drivers to choose from, rather than limiting it to 9's. Since we're really only talking about a 1/2 inch difference, I don't see why we wouldn't want it to be an easier upgrade for the drivers.

 

Kent

[Glenn]

For me this class is about building an obtainable car to compete. I finally realized that there was no way I was going to get there in AI, and for CMCit is totally within reach. More and more people are going to realize that. The easier it is to get to the edge of the rules, the better off this class is. I want to look at my car at the end of the season and realize there is no modifications to be made, it is to edge of the rules, and there is nothing left to fabricate and/or buy.

 

this is what CMC is all about. its about a simple reliable car anyone can put together. its about having that max built to the rules car and knowing the difference is in the driver. some of us are already there and now we are looking down the barrel of change. i think that is why so man folks here are upset. too many changes over too short of a time frame.

[Tri-Agan]

 

this is what CMC is all about. its about a simple reliable car anyone can put together. its about having that max built to the rules car and knowing the difference is in the driver. some of us are already there and now we are looking down the barrel of change. i think that is why so man folks here are upset. too many changes over too short of a time frame.

 

Glenn,

 

I understand where you and others are coming from. Many of us out here are in the same boat, and have built our CMC cars over 5 years and they are perfect. My question to you is this. Since we are talking 2010, it gives everyone over a year to get it together. How much longer do you want the status quo, and do you really think that would make it any easier for guys to make the switch? I voted the last two years to slowly start an upgrade and I was shot down. If folks would have been open two years ago for subtle changes we wouldn't have to do it all at once in 2010. If we don't set a date and move forward nothing will change.

 

We have a tight group out here between the two classes. We want to race against each again like we did before. Something has to give. Either the new cars have to dumb down, or the old cars have to smarten up.

Right now we have an even split between CMC and CMC-2 cars. About 12 of each. The majority of drivers entering the series out here are driving newer cars. In hindsight, when CMC-2 was invented we should have allowed the Fox and 3rd gen to upgrade. If we would have done it then, our current ratio would be more like 19 CMC-2 cars and 6 CMC cars. Next year many drivers out here intend to switch to CMC-2. the ones that don't switch are going to rake in the Toyo money and give themselves another year to get their ducks in a row. I really don't see why we need more than a year to make the class whole again.

 

By the way....I forgot to add this to my last post

 

Go McCain!!!!

 

Kent

[Glenn]

we have 1 car here that is limited to CMC-2 only. we have a 2nd inbound (i've seen it) but not sure when he will race w/ us. so of the 30 or so cars we have in this area as inbound or current cars, we have 2 that are CMC-2 only. thats alot of change for 2 cars. i know its different where you and Tony are, but its why our guys are so upset. we have 3 points collecting CMC-2 guys this year. we had 1 last year. we had zero at Nats this year.

 

on a side note, i talked w/ Tony today on the phone. it was a positive conversation.

[King Matt1548534716]

Right now we have an even split between CMC and CMC-2 cars. About 12 of each.

I've asked you this many times without an answer, but I'll ask again. You keep mentioning the "newer" cars. How many of these cars are 2005-newer Mustangs, 4V Mustang Cobras or LS1 Camaros?

 

edit: I think I know the answer about the 05-newer Mustangs based on your PM to me.

[cmc35]

Good points Brad.....Maybe we should make CMC the first Socialist race series. That way everyone automatically gets awarded first place regardless of how hard they work. We wouldn't want someone to feel bad because one driver is smarter than another, or one driver is better than another, or has more bells and whistles on their car than another. Let's steal from those that work hard and give to those that don't. Kent

 

Kent - and the other folks who keep taking this "whacking" approach to the discussion - stop it. It's rude, and worse, it's not productive.

 

Disagreement is fine. Moving into near-ridicule is not.

 

And let's keep the politics out of this forum. I come here for the friendship and camaraderie.

 

thanks

chris

[Tri-Agan]

Right now we have an even split between CMC and CMC-2 cars. About 12 of each.

I've asked you this many times without an answer, but I'll ask again. You keep mentioning the "newer" cars. How many of these cars are 2005-newer Mustangs, 4V Mustang Cobras or LS1 Camaros?

 

edit: I think I know the answer about the 05-newer Mustangs based on your PM to me.

 

 

LOL Point taken.

 

None are newer than 2005, but I don't see where that matters. My point is that we still have cars that either have to dumb down to CMC or smarten up for CMC-2 in order to have one class again. It has been very difficult to recruit SN-95's and 4th gen camaro's for CMC, but they are willing to jump right into CMC-2. Most people are not willing to dumb their car down, but we have many willing to smarten them up and run as one class again.

 

By the way, I have no idea why nationals have anything to do with it. You guys had 8-9 cars big deal. The year before, you had a few more show up. So what. We have 20 coming to the next regional race and its local and only $225. I wouldn't be proud that you paid a lot of money to race against such a weak car count.

 

I do understand that the series dynamics in Texas and the Mid-west are different than what we have here, and maybe even in CA. It's tough to please everyone. Like I said, it's a very difficult issue.

 

Kent

[supermac]

Chris you know I love you buddy but Kent is onto something here.

I have seen it in Motocross where we went from 12 classes to over 30 it is always the same my daughter with blue hair that was born on a tuesday needs her own class so she can win. Now we watch the track takin over for 20 minutes while Blue hair girl and the three friends her parents thought she could beat out there going around in circles.

Point is if it was up to me we would all (cmc, cmc-2,ai,aix) race something in between AI and CMC. If that was the case we would have 20 cars in our region going at it and everyone would know who was in front. Not every one can win, it is life and as long as you have someone to race with it is all good.

[AllZWay]

I used to race on the dirt.... and track rules changes and Sanctioning body changes have destroyed some very thriving classes over the years.

 

Locally...We went from have 30+ cars per week racing, to just 10 as a result of some rules changes that cost the drivers more money.

 

The thought was that some of the rules needed to happen to move the cars into the future.....but it killed it instead.

 

I am not sure that some of the CMC changes won't do the same.

 

While, we may bring a few new cars online with some of the rules, I think we are going to abandon more older cars in the process.