Rules silly season - please read!

[mitchntx1548534714]

Mitch, I'm sorry, but I have to cry foul here.

 

Doesn't surprise me. You are the worst offender.

 

In the name of "affordable, you and I go back and forth over a $50 delta in brake duct work and yet a $3500 out lay for 4 piston brakes is completely worth it from your view.

 

Chose a side of your mouth and stick with it, okay?

 

Which is it young feller, you want us to freeze or git down on the ground? If'n I freeze, I cant rightly drop. And if'n I drop, I'm a gonna be in motion.

 

Makes about as much sense as your rules.

 

Let them eat cake, right?

 

Edit to fill in the gaps ...

 

I sent a rules change request in to allow blowers to feed the brake duct hose instead of routing long lengths of duct work to the nose of a car and then cutting or altering the nose to feed air.

 

Marine grade blowers are $20 each and can use 1/2 the hose. There is no need to breech the nose as the air in the bumper cover cavity is every bit as cool as ambient. so, OEM appearance is maintained.

 

The Devil's advocate said it was a bad idea because the "perception" would be that if I began winning, then everyone would want to change or add. We're talking $120 max less the backing plates. Huge deal, right?

 

Yet if a racer installs $3K worth of 4 piston brakes and the same scenario is applied, it's perfectly acceptable, right?

 

Don't try and convince me that in the long run, 4 piston brakes are cheaper. I've run 4 piston Brembos on a 98 TA. I know what pads and rotors cost to feed that animal. Pads are about the same cost as my F-car Carbotechs, only harder to source and rotors are 4 or 5 times as expensive, twice as heavy and only last twice as long. And good luck finding them not cross drilled.

 

This is a prime example of how the rules are changed. Pet projects are shoved through the process because of the person requesting, and not necessarily any merit.

 

And reasonable alternatives are scuttled becasue "they aren't necessary". For a $100, why not let me decide for myself, dad?

[RichV]

I'm kinda over with the "if the winning guy has it, the others will feel they need it" mentality. I mean we're a bunch of adults and can make our own decisions. The blood either runs GM or Ford, thats it. The Nats winner was a GM this year and last. How many of us are running to go get that platform?

 

The 275 tires and 4 piston brakes are OVERKILL. There is no reason that should be in the rules. We dont want CMC to be Cash Money Contest, and all in all that's most of our concern.

[Al F.]

Mitch, for the record you said the reason to add blowers was to save money since you wouldnt have to buy as much high dollar hose. I said I didnt think it was a good idea since people would use the exact same hose as well as the blowers, but that I would add it to the list. I can post my responses from the last couple of days if you want. I didnt know it was you since I'm emailing through a web browser while I'm in Australia.

 

More importantly, there is no reason to get offensive in this forum. If you have something to say thats personal, you know how to get a hold of me.

 

As far as the brakes go, the way I see it if you want to spend $3500 on Brembos thats no different than someone spending $3500 on a set of custom spun aluminum wheels...which is also legal and nobody seems to stress about. But also for the record the intent of that rule was to enable use of roundy round style calipers that have much thicker and cheaper pads than ours, not Brembos or other ridiculously expensive setups. Ditto on the rotors, you can buy Porsche parts or you can buy $40 roundy round rotors. Your choice. Isnt that what you want? You can set yourself up with the whole enchilada for $1575 from Wilwood. Alternatively you can buy a C5 kit, a set of pads, a set of brake lines, and a set of two piece hats and rotors for $1600. C5 kit is at UMI, rotors and hats from Coleman, lines and pads from wherever. (a grand if you subtract the rotors and hats, but now thats not an apples to apples comparison) Your choice, though I dont know why anyone with a GM car would prefer that route.

 

For you third gen guys, the best deal I've seen is at flynbye.com where you can step up to a 13" rotor and PBR calipers for $975...or just opt for the same 13" rotor and wilwood 4piston calipers for $1000! $75 difference, pretty fantastic, no?

[King Matt1548534716]

The four-piston brakes really are right at the crux of the discussion that is going on about the future of CMC.

 

Al, you know that even though I agree with many of your arguments in favor of the brakes, and would probably get them for my own car, I don't support the adoption of that rule.

 

First, I think it's outside the scope of our basic rules philosophy. Just because there are other examples of legal parts that violate that spirit doesn't make it OK to add more. In fact, we should seriously consider backing down on some of them. But that's another discussion.

 

More important, it's about what the overall package is becoming, especially within the scope of the upcoming merger. What concerns me is that as we move forward with a single class, significant platform advantages inherent to some of the newer cars are going to reveal themselves to be insurmountable within the context of the current CMC rules limitations. The S197 is a prime example. In American Iron, you can fix most of the things that make a Fox or SN95 inferior to the 05-newer Mustangs. In CMC you can't. That means those cars will either be obsoleted out of the class in a few short years, or we will have to make concessions, like allowing a three-link or torque arm.

 

The main point I'm making is that the rate of rules creep is going to start accelerating with this merger and we need to nip it in the bud RIGHT NOW or it will get out of control. That's why the four-piston calipers, 275 tires, and 9.5 wheels are such a big deal to so many of us.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Guest

[bluebandit48]

how bout a clam rule for brakes? any brake set up can be bought for 800 bucks? just like the shock package.. shocks would help you more than brakes.. you can get a decent set of brakes that work and stop fine for cheep. again.. cmc = budget class... if you want to go and spend big bucks on brakes, run AI. keep it simple.. only should be allowed to run stock breaks... with a cooling duct.. and red caliper paint.. cuz thats cool

[ShadowBolt]

The four-piston brakes really are right at the crux of the discussion that is going on about the future of CMC.

 

Al, you know that even though I agree with many of your arguments in favor of the brakes, and would probably get them for my own car, I don't support the adoption of that rule.

 

First, I think it's outside the scope of our basic rules philosophy. Just because there are other examples of legal parts that violate that spirit doesn't make it OK to add more. In fact, we should seriously consider backing down on some of them. But that's another discussion.

 

More important, it's about what the overall package is becoming, especially within the scope of the upcoming merger. What concerns me is that as we move forward with a single class, significant platform advantages inherent to some of the newer cars are going to reveal themselves to be insurmountable within the context of the current CMC rules limitations. The S197 is a prime example. In American Iron, you can fix most of the things that make a Fox or SN95 inferior to the 05-newer Mustangs. In CMC you can't. That means those cars will either be obsoleted out of the class in a few short years, or we will have to make concessions, like allowing a three-link or torque arm.

 

The main point I'm making is that the rate of rules creep is going to start accelerating with this merger and we need to nip it in the bud RIGHT NOW or it will get out of control. That's why the four-piston calipers, 275 tires, and 9.5 wheels are such a big deal to so many of us.

 

 

I could not have said it better myself. Great job Matt.

 

JJ

[Sidney]

"That's why the four-piston calipers, 275 tires, and 9.5 wheels are such a big deal to so many of us."

 

Add me to the list that does not want to see these legal in CMC.

 

Sidney Franklin

#64 (Sitting on the fence from AI waiting for the new CMC rules)

[FBody383]

I sent a rules change request in to allow blowers to feed the brake duct hose instead of routing long lengths of duct work to the nose of a car and then cutting or altering the nose to feed air.

 

Marine grade blowers are $20 each and can use 1/2 the hose. There is no need to breech the nose as the air in the bumper cover cavity is every bit as cool as ambient. so, OEM appearance is maintained.

 

And reasonable alternatives are scuttled becasue "they aren't necessary". For a $100, why not let me decide for myself, dad?

 

That was one of the first things I asked about in 07 when I started researching the class.

 

Your directors are working their asses off to help the customers..I promise you that...went to bed at 1am working on CMC stuff. No more info, but check Monday.

 

Man, I hope so. For me the racing will be cool, but even better is getting together with a like minded bunch of knuckleheads.

[Carson]

I'll try to re-post here

 

"one of the things that attracted me to NASA/CMC is that it touted itself as a GRASSROOTS organization , which means to me, that the directors bend to the will of the membership "

 

Iam not trying to offened anyone and I believe all directors and members who post here do indeed have CMC's best interest in mind

 

ALTHOUGH , I see a obvious lack of TRANSPARENCY in CMC that has, in my opinion, lead to the tormol we see here .

 

I urge ALL members to contact your local director in an organized manner to voice your regions concerns , rules and or policy related , so that director carries those concerns to the rest of the directors

representing that regions members . Where a logical and timely response is expected .

THAT my frinds is a GRASSROOTS organization

[mitchntx1548534714]

I said nothing that should be remotely deemed as a personal attack nor offensive. You are the worst offender from my dealings when it comes to push back and circling the rules wagons when it comes to questioning validity or change. It's like you own them or they are a part of you family heir-looms ... attack the rules and by extension the rules family is attacked.

 

You are too close to them, Al.

 

 

Mitch, for the record you said the reason to add blowers was to save money since you wouldnt have to buy as much high dollar hose. I said I didnt think it was a good idea since people would use the exact same hose as well as the blowers, but that I would add it to the list. I can post my responses from the last couple of days if you want. I didnt know it was you since I'm emailing through a web browser while I'm in Australia.

 

 

Al ... for the record, forced me to put it those terms when you said in a private e-mail

 

Anyway, here are three questions I ask myself when contemplating any change:

1) Will it make our racing safer?

2) Will it make our racing less expensive?

3) Will a top shelf driver in a top shelf car post the exact same lap time before and after the change?

 

That was the criteria.

 

So I tried to work within that criteria, using common, everyday parts that were available to a racer for a race car.

 

Then the nickel and diming of the cost of the hose began. And thats when I realized you would argue with me about the merits of this rules change over hose that costs $10 a foot vs hose costing $5 a foot and that $50 was a deal breaker in your eye.

 

But forking over several grand in brake parts was perfectly palatable.

 

For every racer here, if $50 is a deal breaker for them to be able to cool brakes or not, then why are you guys as a group even discussing expensive brake packages, or for that matter, heads/cam/header changes for 3rd and Fox cars so they can "compete".

 

Explain to me how the issue is now "affordability" vs something a lot less tangible like ... pet projects?

[mitchntx1548534714]

I apologize to this whole group. This has gotten ugly. People ... racers ... CMC racers have been banned for voicing their opinion here and I'm walking on very thin ice right now because I know I'm soon to follow. But maybe it's time.

 

All of you are a great group of people with a passion for this sport and for this series. Otherwise you wouldn't be here, in this thread, attempting to make your voices heard.

 

I am cautiously optimistic that Tony's comments will be a point where we can all pivot and rally together and get this mess behind us.

 

This is supposed to be a hobby ... a time of relaxation. I don't feel very relaxed right now.

 

Peace Out

[MHISSTC]

I'm reluctant to post here again since the last time it did it spawned a personal conflict that was quickly resolved, but here goes anyway:

 

As far as the brakes go, the way I see it if you want to spend $3500 on Brembos thats no different than someone spending $3500 on a set of custom spun aluminum wheels...which is also legal and nobody seems to stress about. But also for the record the intent of that rule was to enable use of roundy round style calipers that have much thicker and cheaper pads than ours, not Brembos or other ridiculously expensive setups. Ditto on the rotors, you can buy Porsche parts or you can buy $40 roundy round rotors. Your choice. Isnt that what you want? You can set yourself up with the whole enchilada for $1575 from Wilwood. Alternatively you can buy a C5 kit, a set of pads, a set of brake lines, and a set of two piece hats and rotors for $1600. C5 kit is at UMI, rotors and hats from Coleman, lines and pads from wherever. (a grand if you subtract the rotors and hats, but now thats not an apples to apples comparison) Your choice, though I dont know why anyone with a GM car would prefer that route.

 

For you third gen guys, the best deal I've seen is at flynbye.com where you can step up to a 13" rotor and PBR calipers for $975...or just opt for the same 13" rotor and wilwood 4piston calipers for $1000! $75 difference, pretty fantastic, no?

 

 

Al,

 

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

 

You finally opened up and discussed the INTENT of a proposed rule change. I have a huge problem with being told I can or can't do something for the simple reason of "'Cause I said so." In most cases here it's "'cause the rules say so, or don't say so" usually followed by some version of the following: "We've been through this before. Accept the rules as they are. Work with what it is, be quiet, and quit stirring the pot."

 

When reasons and explanations are given, I can wrap my head around it and better deal with it in my own mind...leading either to acceptance, or to an educated discussion as to why I think it should be different. That discussion may or may not lead to additional changes, but it does lead to a better understanding. (See the discussion of 'Grassroots' above)

 

In this particular case, I had no idea that such brake systems could purchased from circle track vendors for that reasonable of a cost. Nothing like that is available to me locally, but that opens up a whole new field of parts consideration. Is something like that available to work with Ford products? However, that does not mean I'd actually go out and buy a set of Wilwood circle track brakes and rotors. To me, that goes against the basic premise of the CMC series...being able to pick and choose the best/most available parts from the factory parts bin to come up with the most competitive package I can afford. Since no Ford product that can be considered for this race series came from the factory with 4-piston calipers, I'm still against allowing them in the future.

 

In my mind $3500 brake kits make as much sense as $3500 custom made wheels. That's about twice what I'm spending on having a cage fabricated and money that's waaaaay better spent elsewhere, not to mention not even available to me. I do have a feeling that if the option is available, sooner or later, there will be someone who goes out and DOES spend that amount on those items.

 

One reason I think you haven't seen the discussion about custom wheels is because folks realize it would be ridiculous given the availability of stock...or cheap aftermarket wheels...that fit well within the current weight and size guidelines given without the need for custom parts and any benefit gained by such a part would be so small as to be imperceptible.

 

Brakes, on the other hand, might be a more tempting prize. Being able to brake deeper and harder with less fade, increased durability, and better modulation over any of the stock systems currently available would be nice indeed.

[Al F.]

Alright, last time I'll say anything about it.

 

3rd gen

Flynbye.com offers a 13" PBR caliper kit in a box, best deal I've found. Its $925. They also offer a 13" kit using a wilwood billet superlite for $1000. $75 net cost difference for a substantial increase in pad life with pads that are cheaper to begin with.

 

4th gen

Flynbue sells superlite adapter brackets for third gens for $150. He also makes 4th gen stuff, just not anything we'd be interested in. He therefore has all the dimensions needed to make brackets for us. Lets double that 3rd gen bracket cost and consider a 4th gen bracket set would cost $300 sized for the 13" rotor if you dont want two piece units. Those calipers cost $165 each and C5 rotors cost $60each, so you can realistically assemble a setup for around $800 (plus pads and lines but you either got those or buy them regularly). A C5 kit is $820 from UMI.

 

Ford

I havent found anything pre-made other than the aforementioned wilwood kit that nobody seems to like the sound of. That said I know for a fact that if you pm HMark and offer him $350 for a set of brackets for you he'll mail them over. That makes the Ford conversion the same as the 4th gen, though certainly more expensive than a Cobra kit in a box. My bet is you pay off the incremental $200 within the first year you race given pads cost 50 less and are twice as thick.

 

This is a different spin, using one piece rotors seeing as how the math using two piece rotors seemed to be throwing people off. For new builds or cars needing to replace calipers anyway its a no brainer IMHO. I know some of you will say you never need to replace your calipers though. I guess for you the payout is too long. My calipers dont last for ever though.

 

You dont have to spend a pile. You certainly dont need Brembos, Porsche, StopTech or anything that hovers in the three grand range. You can, but you can also spend several grand on things like TKOs in the name of durability. Thats it, I'm done now. sorry for being hard headed.

[King Matt1548534716]

There are lots of neat parts available for roundy round cars. If we wanted to apply the concept across the board, we could all go out and buy cheap ex-Busch cars and throw a crate engine in it. Faster (by a lot) than an AI car for half the price.

 

Al has pointed to some inexpensive off-the-shelf Wilwood parts, but please don't confuse those with a "system." You will be on your own figuring out piston sizes, rotor offset, and mounting brackets. Al is also holding those cheap Wilwood caliper out as some kind of gold-standard for performance. I have been told that those calipers are generally regarded as being junk compared to "real" racing calipers. Maybe so, maybe not, but I do know that I usually get what I pay for with every other component on my race car, so I really do think there is a difference between those $165 Wilwoods and the $1200 Brembo calipers Jeff Feit and Jay Andrew just put on their AI cars. Both are legal the way the CMC-2 rules is written, and I have a big problem with that.

[mitchntx1548534714]

There are lots of neat parts available for roundy round cars. If we wanted to apply the concept across the board, we could all go out and buy cheap ex-Busch cars and throw a crate engine in it. Faster (by a lot) than an AI car for half the price.

 

Al has pointed to some inexpensive off-the-shelf Wilwood parts, but please don't confuse those with a "system." You will be on your own figuring out piston sizes, rotor offset, and mounting brackets. Al is also holding those cheap Wilwood caliper out as some kind of gold-standard for performance. I have been told that those calipers are generally regarded as being junk compared to "real" racing calipers. Maybe so, maybe not, but I do know that I usually get what I pay for with every other component on my race car, so I really do think there is a difference between those $165 Wilwoods and the $1200 Brembo calipers Jeff Feit and Jay Andrew just put on their AI cars. Both are legal the way the CMC-2 rules is written, and I have a big problem with that.

 

Thank you Matt King. There is a difference between Wilwood Superlite and Brembo and I don't think you are paying for the name.

 

Going cheap on brakes scares the living crap out of me.

 

Again, my issue with this is it's all on paper. No one has stepped up and posted any real world experience using the bargain basement brake kit.

 

But there is a ton of experience in the 4th gen F-Car world using 4 piston Brembos scavenged off of 996TT Porsches.

[OldCMC17]

It used to be about the person in the driver's seat.

 

I'm sure it still is, but the water isn't very clear these days.

 

(wish I could take my bar back.. oh well, back to the couch I go)

[roadracerwhite]

There are lots of neat parts available for roundy round cars. If we wanted to apply the concept across the board, we could all go out and buy cheap ex-Busch cars and throw a crate engine in it. Faster (by a lot) than an AI car for half the price.

 

Al has pointed to some inexpensive off-the-shelf Wilwood parts, but please don't confuse those with a "system." You will be on your own figuring out piston sizes, rotor offset, and mounting brackets. Al is also holding those cheap Wilwood caliper out as some kind of gold-standard for performance. I have been told that those calipers are generally regarded as being junk compared to "real" racing calipers. Maybe so, maybe not, but I do know that I usually get what I pay for with every other component on my race car, so I really do think there is a difference between those $165 Wilwoods and the $1200 Brembo calipers Jeff Feit and Jay Andrew just put on their AI cars. Both are legal the way the CMC-2 rules is written, and I have a big problem with that.

 

Exactly,

 

 

I went through trying to use those Willwood calipers last year on my AI car. After changing out master cylinders, pad types, and rotors trying to get the system dialed in, I can tell you this is not the direction I want to see CMC go in. This was a gigantic nightmare.

 

 

Brake systems are all about rotor diameter and pad size. We might not need the $1200 Brembos to win, (I know that) but I don't want the perception for new people entering the series to be that these are necessary. It is hard enough to convince them to put the stock headers back on or manifolds that were thrown away long ago.

[Rustang72]

Thank you Matt King. There is a difference between Wilwood Superlite and Brembo and I don't think you are paying for the name.

 

Going cheap on brakes scares the living crap out of me.

 

Again, my issue with this is it's all on paper. No one has stepped up and posted any real world experience using the bargain basement brake kit.

 

But there is a ton of experience in the 4th gen F-Car world using 4 piston Brembos scavenged off of 996TT Porsches.

If you look on NASAForums, Rob Bodle had bad luck with his Wilwood kit. The kit is now onto its 3rd or 4th owner...

 

Do you guys realize that you can buy SRT-8/Viper/CTS-V/Evo/STI take off Brembo calipers for under $400/pair almost any day on ebay? I've seen $5000 NASCRAP Brembo sets go for under $1000 in almost new condition. This is budget racing. Learn to be creative with how to spend your money.

 

BTW, Piston sizing for Big Red 964T/993TT/996TT calipers is tuned for a rear engine car. Big Blacks from a 928GTS or 951S would better suit our cars. Neither are as cost effective as other used Brembo solutions.

[King Matt1548534716]

We are only allowed to use OEM brake master cylinders, which limits the piston sizes in whatever calipers you choose to a very narrow range, plus you have to balance the front piston displacement to the rear calipers. Again, you have a narrow range to work with, even with an adjustable prop valve, and if you have a system that is fundamentally out of balance, you will never make it work.

 

So good luck making the NASCAR parts work with an OEM master cylinder and the rest of our system limitations. Never heard of anyone successfully doing it, but it would be great for someone to be the guinea pig and figure it all out for us.

[mitchntx1548534714]

 

If you look on NASAForums, Rob Bodle had bad luck with his Wilwood kit. The kit is now onto its 3rd or 4th owner...

 

Not to mention designed to be used a 1600# sprint car.

[Rustang72]

If I was going to do it, I'd look at the SRT-8 calipers first. There are plenty of Jeep GCs, Dodge Chargers, and Chrysler 300Cs that upgrade their brakes or wreck. If you're the type of person that only buys new, the Jeep version of those calipers can be found for $250+/each new.

 

The balance should be close enough to our cars with proportioning valve and pad selection making up any front/rear bias difference.

[King Matt1548534716]

What are the piston sizes on those SRT-8 calipers?

[Rustang72]

Fronts are 44mm, rears are 32mm. They are symmetrical so you can invert them if you need to swap sides. Porsche front (and I think rear) Brembos are asymmetrical so no flipping sides.

[Glenn]

link to a pick?

[nasa-rm]

Since this was titled, "silly season", can I ask a silly question(s)?

 

Why are we looking at 4 pot calipers?

Is there a problem with the caliper rules as is?

What is the reason for the requested change?

Who asked for the requested change?