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Wing Wing Bling Bling


Al F.

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There's been lots of comments on lots of threads around wings lately, so I thought I'd create a new thread on it. I think at least one post will get read, while I know some of you are ignoring certain threads

 

I've read a lot of "big wings arent in the spirit of cmc" comments, or derivatives of that comment. I've also read a lot of "Cobra Rs arent allowed so you shouldnt have Cobra R parts" or some derivate of that. What bothers me most are the "that wing rule is there because one guy wanted to run a Cobra R wing" or some other thinly veiled insult to that effect.

 

So I'll say it once and I'd say it louder if I could: you guys thinking along any of those lines are all either flat out wrong or really late to the party.

 

For the 2004 season, so some time around FIVE YEARS AGO we edited the wing rule, but you know what we did? We LIMITED the wing rule to 11" from the deck. That means that in 2003 and likely all the way before then you could've run with a wing that was taller than the roof!

 

Let that sink in for a bit. Giant ass wings are not new to the rules. The wing rule was not added to enable Cobra R wings, though the Cobra R wing was used as the standard over which we didnt want people to go. The wing rule was not added because one guy showed up and we had to legalize him. It was in the rules and five years ago we limited it to what it states now. The fact that not very many cars chose to play with this rule is not the fault of the rule.

 

So...revisiting this rule is on the table for us, ok, I dont have a problem with that. I do have a problem with anyone thinking this is a recent allowance and part of some ever growing list of changes. It may be a recent trend that people put them on their cars, but thats a different story.

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I would like to clarify some info on the big wings at Nationals. As we read the rule, we took it to mean the overall outline of the body (72in) not including the mirrors if we did that they could have been 2-3 in wider. They are exactly 71" long.

 

I don't know what the rule is going to be next year but we can make new ones that are 65" long or have none at all if that is what is decided. They are probably not in what I would call the spirit of CMC.

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I would like to clarify some info on the big wings at Nationals. As we read the rule, we took it to mean the overall outline of the body (72in) not including the mirrors if we did that they could have been 2-3 in wider. They are exactly 71" long.

 

I don't know what the rule is going to be next year but we can make new ones that are 65" long or have none at all if that is what is decided. They are probably not in what I would call the spirit of CMC.

I agree. I have a wing on my car that is adjustable, light weight, and all that other fancy stuff. My brother has been helping make wings for some of the AI cars in TX and easily made one for my CMC car.

I submitted a request to disallow them as I don't feel they are within the spirit of CMC either.

Plus I don't like how the other TX guys draft me down the straight at TWS.

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I would like to elaborate on roadracerwhites post. Bryan and I made these wings over the winter and it started out as a project when we both ran AI. We made a fiberglass mold that is 72 inches wide. The structure of the wing is a aluminium skeleton with a molded fiberglass "shells" that cover the skeleton. The mold was made that wide because that is the width of a third gen Firebird at the wheel lips on the rear. (The widest point). We did not go from mirror tip to mirror tip as previously presumed. The perspective of Matt Kings video makes the wings look much wider that they really are. They are 71 inches wide. We made them a inch shorter to be "safe" from the tech inspectors The height off the deck is 10 3/4 inches including the top of the wicker bill. Again we gave ourselves a 1/4 inch margin of error. When I first ran the wing at Mid Ohio in the spring the height was questioned and it was not determined how it was to be measured. Was it measured at the front of the wing or the rear of the wing. It was later determined by Matt King that it needed to be measured with a carpenters square off the rear of the wing. At that event the wing was too high and I made the adjustment. Knowing it may cause a stir, When I showed up to the nationals I had all the measuring equipment in hand. Plum bob, tape measure and carpenters square. It is completely within the rules. Regarding spirit and intent....I am not going to get into that and will let the directors decide.

There has also been a lot of comments to the effect "why are in the rules they don't work" " you cant get enough front down force to make them work" yada yada. Well let me say this..They WORK...... VERY well. And the key is that they are adjustable. Sure if I dialed in 10 degrees of angle i could probably pull wheelies down the back stretch at MID O. But we only have to dial in about 2.5 degrees and the balance at Mid O is about perfect. If you watch my video the car never over steered. It pushed slightly in turn one and that was a slight compromise I had made but listen how early I could get on the throttle in the key hole and I could mash the throttle with confidence in 7 and going into thunder valley knowing that it would not step out. So, If the wings become illegal next year which they more than likely will, I have a really nice wing for sale and can make wings, any width, if you know any AI guys that are looking for one. $500 each.

Contact me if your interested.

Bob

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The perspective of Matt Kings video makes the wings look much wider that they really are.

 

Bob

 

I was going to comment about them being too wide as seen on the video.

 

I believe Matt was using the GoPro camera which has really wide angle lens giving the person who views the vide a "fish-eye" effect.

 

In this case, objects might be narrower than they appear.

 

Don't believe everything you see or hear on TV ...

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nice post AL and Bob.

the wing rule will not go away. it will be clarified to ensure the intent is clear. that means Bob and Bryan will need to trim those down some.

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I got to ask...what exactly is the difference between a wing like the Firebirds had at Nationals and a Lexan spoiler as the one attached to Glenn's car? Don't they both do the same thing..just like the Cobra R wing... Downforce?

 

Sidney Franklin

#64

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mine isnt Lexan, that was Nick Steele last year.

 

the difference is the appearance. your car looks like it should be in AI, mine not so much.

if it makes any difference, i dont like mine either. standing on the grounds of "it shouldnt be allowed" isnt gonna help me stay in from of those who do it. i gotta do it cause you did. CMC is slowly getting to the point of not being able to leave anything on the table.

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Difference in execution, not result. Both spoiler and wings do the same thing.

 

Some people are just against the poser-import look. Me, I don't care.

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CMC is slowly getting to the point of not being able to leave anything on the table.

 

I don't mean to pick on you, Glenn, but isn't that what happens when race classes mature and cars/drivers run the series for a while? I'm not saying I'm right, but IMO that's the attraction of a class like CMC. Eventually, you're "done". You can just put fresh tires/pads/fluids in the car and haul the mail instead of saving up for the next whiz bang gadget. It takes a while, but eventually the car gets close.

 

We all know it's not quite that simple, but I think it's a goal for a few racers in CMC.

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nape,

 

I would have to agree with you 100%, which is why i bought robin burnetts CMC. the car is very compeititive, and other than a little tlc it dosnt need anything huge done to it. the car is done, i get to go racing, im happy as hell

 

Rob

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CMC is slowly getting to the point of not being able to leave anything on the table.

 

I don't mean to pick on you, Glenn, but isn't that what happens when race classes mature and cars/drivers run the series for a while? I'm not saying I'm right, but IMO that's the attraction of a class like CMC. Eventually, you're "done". You can just put fresh tires/pads/fluids in the car and haul the mail instead of saving up for the next whiz bang gadget. It takes a while, but eventually the car gets close.

 

We all know it's not quite that simple, but I think it's a goal for a few racers in CMC.

 

i guess you took my comment as dig on CMC. it was infact not. it was an explanation as to why i would do a mod that i didnt think should be allowed - cause the level of competition forces us to do everything we can to win.

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Do the wings do much? I'd look at the fast cars on a national level.

 

American Iron finishing order at 2008 Nationals (car info from photos in driver profiles on AmericanIronRacing.com; maybe they are old, maybe they aren't):

 

1st - Burnett; some sort of front splitter with a low Steeda rear wing

2nd - DeSalvo; 2001 Cobra R nose/splitter and 2001 Cobra R rear wing.

3rd - Algozine; stock SN95 GT front bumper and no rear wing at all.

4th - Schlender; stock Firebird nose (not Trans-Am) with a stock Firebird spoiler.

 

CMC finishing order at 2008 Nationals (car info from photos in "competitors" section on this website):

 

1st - Landrum; no profile

2nd - King; no profile

3rd - Denton; no profile

4th - McComb; old photo, wrong car number (or is it?)

 

I was at Blackforest Motorsports this morning, and they were showing me how they actually have the wings on their GT cars set level or slightly nose-up, since they feel that the wings don't do anything for those cars (but are apparently required per the rules).

 

Mark

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Yeah, the AI driver profiles are horrifically out of date. Algozine's car hasn't looked like that since 2005.

 

I put a lexan spoiler on my AI car this year and it's a noticable difference in rear grip vs. a bare deck lid.

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here is the deal guys. the rear wing aint gonna make the car faster. if it does, you had the car way too lose to start w/. downforce needs to be equal front and rear. w/ no way to make front downforce (comprable to what a AI type rear wing can generate) its a waiste to use the wing.

 

the way CMC rules makers plan to keep all this in check is to not allow front downforce mods, therefore hoping to prevent a rear wing from working. the same downforce that Bob and Bryan are using ( they likely have the wing dialed almost all the way out) could be generated from alot less drag and cost as well as alot less visually impacting. i ran a home brew set-up the first few days of Nats this year. i only tested it once before Nats. turns out it made too much downforce, and for the Champ race, i put my old LG ZR28 spoiler on.

now i also did some testing last year w/ a similare air dan Bob runs. it made the front have more grip. at the time i was sorting cooling issues that was compounded by the airdam. i ended up ditching it untill i could work out the cooling issue. once i put the air dam back on, i'll likely put my home brew rear spoiler backon too. should be a nice package.

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pa-shah ...

 

Till you got wind tunnel data, it's all seat-of-the-pants, subjective banter.

 

Take it all off and make it as sleek as possible, taking all the "bumps" off the body you can.

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We can argue how well they work and how much drag we are pulling around,it is not going to do much good. There are so many variables, who knows.

 

The question in my mind is, "Are wings and air damns in the scope of CMC?"

 

I don't think they are and it is not for me to decide, but I am going to use it, because they are legal. And when the rule is rewritten if they are still allowed I am going to make a new one per the rule.

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We can argue how well they work and how much drag we are pulling around,it is not going to do much good. There are so many variables, who knows.

 

The question in my mind is, "Are wings and air damns in the scope of CMC?"

 

I don't think they are and it is not for me to decide, but I am going to use it, because they are legal. And when the rule is rewritten if they are still allowed I am going to make a new one per the rule.

 

as we all have the right to do.

i'm w/ you. gotta keep up w/ the Jones's.

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I've read a lot of "big wings arent in the spirit of cmc" comments, or derivatives of that comment. I've also read a lot of "Cobra Rs arent allowed so you shouldnt have Cobra R parts" or some derivate of that. What bothers me most are the "that wing rule is there because one guy wanted to run a Cobra R wing" or some other thinly veiled insult to that effect.

 

So I'll say it once and I'd say it louder if I could: you guys thinking along any of those lines are all either flat out wrong or really late to the party.

 

 

Al-why is it wrong to say that Cobra R's aren't allowed so you shouldn't have Cobra R parts? I don't understand where the logic lies and where the line is drawn.

 

 

Copied from a post by Mitch:

 

Al ... for the record, forced me to put it those terms when you said in a private e-mail

 

Quote:

 

Anyway, here are three questions I ask myself when contemplating any change:

1) Will it make our racing safer?

2) Will it make our racing less expensive?

3) Will a top shelf driver in a top shelf car post the exact same lap time before and after the change

 

 

Al-just how does a wing make our racing safer, less expensive, and the data that supported zero lap time change when this rule was added whenever it was added?

 

Where is the data to support this rule? This should be another post but along the same line where is the data (who was the test mule driver and test car) that provided the data for the change to 4 piston brakes? I would like to talk to them about their experience and costs.

 

Any idea when the rules will be posted for 2009? Our first race in 09 is end of Jan. and look like I have lots of things to change to max out my car per the rules.

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