Nor Cal CMC

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Come on Al, I think we all know here in Northern California what's been going on in our CMC group lately. We are all keenly aware of the rift, and it shows in the participation. This problem has been brewing for some time and I think you owe it to the racers to not BS what the problem is and has been. Things have been promised and discussed and agreed to again and again, and the same old thing keeps happening. Tony has been as patient as a person could be in the face of all this adversity. I think I would be tired of all the back pedaling too. Changing all the people in charge of the group isn't going to solve anything. This all started with the 06 Nationals and the disrespect that was shown for our National Director at that time, and it has only gotten worse since. Anyone who knows Tony knows this isn't about family time. Forcing people to make decisions because of someone elses lack of integrity is what's happening here. You don't have to sugar coat it. NASA is making a big mistake, but hey they can run their business anyway they see fit, and we can all decide where we are going to race in the future. It is a free country. People should follow up and do what they say. If you don't have your word what do you have.

 

PS

[Carson]

Hey Pat,

 

maybe everybody in NORCAL knows

 

but why not let us in SOCAL in on the " rest of the story "

 

I thought we are one big happy family

 

cheers, C

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Hey Carson,

 

Where have you been? We miss racing with you. You don't know what's been going on behind the scenes? I think your question says it all. Nor Cal-----So Cal. nough said huh.

 

Cheers

[Glenn]

care to tell the "back story" to the rest of us?

 

[email protected]

[KiMifan]

Forcing people to make decisions because of someone elses lack of integrity is what's happening here. You don't have to sugar coat it. NASA is making a big mistake, but hey they can run their business anyway they see fit, and we can all decide where we are going to race in the future. It is a free country. PS

What comes around, goes around...

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Hey Glenn,

 

You will have a better understanding of it when they split Texas into two regions. Merry Christmas. Nice drive at the Nats by the way. Wish I had a car to race you with.

 

PS

[Glenn]

Hey Glenn,

 

You will have a better understanding of it when they split Texas into two regions. Merry Christmas. Nice drive at the Nats by the way. Wish I had a car to race you with.

 

PS

 

i still want to know the story.

[ShadowBolt]

Hey Glenn,

 

You will have a better understanding of it when they split Texas into two regions. Merry Christmas. Nice drive at the Nats by the way. Wish I had a car to race you with.

 

PS

 

i still want to know the story.

 

Call Tony. He told me some about it. He will tell you everything you want to know about it. It IS a mess.

 

 

JJ

[Al F.]

Pat, I know a lot less about it that you might think. Tony and NASA have disagreed over the split to norcal/socal, but the schedule posted for 2010 is essentially the same as the schedule was the last time I raced in Ca around 2006, split or not. So...what's the problem?

 

Tony was offered to run AI as well as CMC AI in Norcal and turned it down for his own reasons. The minute he decides he wants to help run the show again he's got the job back.

[Lady in Nomex]

The bottom line is that if people aren't happy with the product they don't buy it. Last year many NorCals sat out, some due to economy, some due to dissatisfaction with our high fees and split in the region. We also observed, and continue to observe, our CMC regional reps in Northern CA busting their butts to fix things, make everyone happy, and NASA some $. Well, no happy and no money again this year apparently. I was planning to attend almost all the races, now just the min. to get into the Nationals.

 

Someone at NASA needs to step up and bring the magic back! CMC NorCal is the birthplace of CMC. It should not be disrespected!

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Come on Al,

 

You're the National CMC Director and you don't know what's happening in the racing series you are supposed to be running. Is that what your saying? And since you brought up the schedule, I have been racing in this series since 03 and I can't ever remember a year when we raced three out of four races at Infineon. When you were here racing with us we had four races down south and four up north, and then eight was too much so we went to seven. We tried to be accomadating by offering to go south four out of seven races but no one wanted to go to Willows Springs in July including the So Cal guys, so. Then the whining started, and now we have this. I heard a deal was all worked out and then a last minute pull out. Or did I misunderstand? maybe i have this all wrong and everything is wonderful, and I am misinformed.

 

PS

[mitchntx1548534714]

All this negativity just drives new racers away.

 

We need to just go racing and stop all this whining and bitching

 

If you don't like this sandbox, you can go play in the other one

 

Ever wonder how many SCCA officials said those words 10 years ago?

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Well then lets get it all out on the table for everyone to see. Even our National director doesn't know what's going on. Where is the real problem here? Is it the managers trying to micro manage and undermine their representatives and volunteers. Splitting into two groups, first for the new cars, and then North and South. Then too proud to admit maybe it was a mistake and retract. Now all the hard work and attempts to work out the problems go for naught because it's all business, and who's interests are the main priority here, the customers or the businesses. Well I have been in business for thirty years, and i can tell you these are extraordinary times and in my business if you ignore what customers are saying, pretty soon you don't have the business you once had. Just a word to the wise. We didn't have all these problems until people started sticking their noses where they didn't need to be. Now many unhappy customers, all waiting to see what is going to happen. Bad timing, that's all. Things can get fixed if people are willing to work together. Evidently that is not the case.

 

PS

[Pat Stone1548534713]

Hey Mitch,

 

You racing this year? You may call this bitching, whining, whatever you like. There are some things that need to be said, before a lot of us out here in California do go play in another sandbox. We all enjoyed racing in this series and have had nothing but good things to say about it. When the decisions being made effect a large group of people this is what you get. Some people will say nothing and just watch it go up in smoke, others don't know when to shut up. I probably fall into the later catagory. (you think) The bottom line is this affects all of us deeply, it's effecting you, and you don't even race with us, right?

 

PS

[Al F.]

Take it easy Pat. I'm not exactly in the dark.

 

When you were here racing with us we had four races down south and four up north, and then eight was too much so we went to seven.

 

Some guys thought 8 was too many. Some didnt. Some guys thought it was too far to tow to Thunderhill, some guys thought it was too far to tow to Willow Srings. So now you have eight races, four north and four south, and they alternate so you never have to "go north" or "go south" two months in a row. I've never seen complaints about going to Infineon before now. Would 2 and 2 between Infineon and Thunderhill have been better instead of 3 and 1? Maybe, depends which track you like better I guess. But, in order to have that 2 and 2 something else would've had to give, like having two north events in a row. It was, as are most decisions, a compromise.

 

I just dont see how this schedule is so awful as to think that NASA isnt listening to its customers. I know NASA and the Cal CMC officials worked very hard together to make some difficult decisions. Personally, I think this schedule rocks, especially because for every guy that thought 8 weekends was too many there was a guy that thought 7 weekends wasnt enough. I know this...6 (what we have in Texas) is WAY too few!

[GT4Point6]

I think Pat is on target, I'll jump in that sinking boat and row with PS...

 

Seven has been the max since I started racing for the past five years.

Not bad when it's ONE REGION and one weekend gets dropped and every weekend you got three races...

 

Split four and four, and no one can tell you how the drops are going to work when one region gets three races per weekend and the other only gets two and your first race is in two months? PRICELESS!!! But that is the bread we must eat if we stay with NASA.

 

Tony and Mike both give up CMC directing jobs, WOW. Even after the NASA assistance to get Mike's 3rd gen to CMC2 level. REALLY??? Someone explain this one, if you can.

 

Two of the most helpful guys in the pits that would help you in any way and give you the shirts off their backs are no longer directors.

***scratching head / scratching head***

[mitchntx1548534714]

Hey Mitch,

 

You racing this year? You may call this bitching, whining, whatever you like. There are some things that need to be said, before a lot of us out here in California do go play in another sandbox. We all enjoyed racing in this series and have had nothing but good things to say about it. When the decisions being made effect a large group of people this is what you get. Some people will say nothing and just watch it go up in smoke, others don't know when to shut up. I probably fall into the later catagory. (you think) The bottom line is this affects all of us deeply, it's effecting you, and you don't even race with us, right?

 

PS

 

Hey Pat ... read a little deeper. I feel your pain and frustration.

 

I have seen those quotes posted numerous times, pointed at people like you and me.

 

The SCCA comment was meant to spark a memory for those who formed NASA and maybe look in a mirror and see similarities to what they were living under and the net result.

 

I can see parallel paths being taken.

[KiMifan]

Gee, I know it got swept under the rug pretty fast and never talked about in public again, but Tony and Mike did try to create a breakaway series outside of NASA just a couple of months ago. You really think they are all still singing kumbaya up there after that?

[cmc38camaro]

I think Pat is on target, I'll jump in that sinking boat and row with PS...

 

Seven has been the max since I started racing for the past five years.

Not bad when it's ONE REGION and one weekend gets dropped and every weekend you got three races...

 

Split four and four, and no one can tell you how the drops are going to work when one region gets three races per weekend and the other only gets two and your first race is in two months? PRICELESS!!! But that is the bread we must eat if we stay with NASA.

 

Tony and Mike both give up CMC directing jobs, WOW. Even after the NASA assistance to get Mike's 3rd gen to CMC2 level. REALLY??? Someone explain this one, if you can.

 

Two of the most helpful guys in the pits that would help you in any way and give you the shirts off their backs are no longer directors.

***scratching head / scratching head***

 

This is a classic power struggle that started in the time leading up to the first National event. NASA wanted changes and more control of the CMC rules. This shift of control continued and peaked in the November 2008 timeframe when NASA demanded complete control over the CMC ruleset. Among other things demanding that CMC-2 upgrade packages be specified in the rules. The thought that many of the packages were untested didn't matter. I was allowed 1 day to spec out the 4 engine packages for the 3rd gens. The North/South split also came at this time. The negative consequences of these decisions were observed in 2009.

 

No one liked the results and they caused people to look for answers. NASA opened their wallet and paid for some CMC-2 upgrade experiments. A schedule was worked out that was closer to the schedule of the good old days. Not perfect in anyway, but at least there were no conflicting events.

 

Efforts to recapture other past practices such as 3 races per weekend in Socal couldn't be worked out. I feel bad for the Socal racers hoping to win the West Coast Championship. They are put at a mathematical or a mileage disadvantage having only 2 races a weekend versus 3 in Norcal. A wide array of tactics were used in the negotiations with NASA including resignations and threats of going elsewhere. In the end only 2 out of 3 parties could agreed on terms and the deal fell apart.

 

This is a volunteer effort and there is only so much grief that a person is willing to take in such an arrangement. There is another thread on director compensation. Over the years I have comp'd a number of events, the freebie went to either Tony or I, not both.

 

NASA did buy $1140 worth of parts to upgrade my car in the second attempt to make CMC-2 power. The labor on the second attempt and the cost of the first attempt came out of my pocket. I can tell you I spent more than NASA did in getting it to the current power numbers of 262/317. The on track performance of the 262/317 packaged equaled an LT1. I just learned that the rules will be updated to allow the parts, but the power levels will be governed by table two. I'm screwed. I have a choice of restricting the torque to 260 and ending up with uncompetitive horsepower or carrying an extra 100 pounds of weight or switch to a different engine package.

 

Just another example of doing your best to help and getting screwed as a result.

 

My plan for 2010 is to run the Norcal events. I encourage all the West Coast racers to do the same. Jerry has been great to work with and deserves our support. I would like to do the Nationals but probably won't given the rules disadvantage.

 

This is my one and only post on the subject.

[Adam Ginsberg]

The bottom line is that if people aren't happy with the product they don't buy it. Last year many NorCals sat out, some due to economy, some due to dissatisfaction with our high fees and split in the region.

 

Help me understand something, Julie. You mention the "high fees". In the research I've done, NASA CA hasn't raised entry fees in 3 years. So where is the complaint about high entry fees coming from?

 

We also observed, and continue to observe, our CMC regional reps in Northern CA busting their butts to fix things, make everyone happy, and NASA some $. Well, no happy and no money again this year apparently. I was planning to attend almost all the races, now just the min. to get into the Nationals.

 

Someone at NASA needs to step up and bring the magic back! CMC NorCal is the birthplace of CMC. It should not be disrespected!

 

As a CA outsider coming to race here at the beginning of 2008, the biggest thing missing.....the big party/camaraderie atmosphere we'd all heard so much about. It was very surprising.

 

Behind the scenes, NASA has been keenly aware of the lower car counts, and unhappy racers. I've been working on a "State of the Union" message for a few weeks, but between work, family and holidays, it's taken longer than I'd like.

 

The number of races is directly attributed to car count - it's very hard to demand NASA give us 3 races per weekend when we don't have enough cars to justify shuffling around other classes to accommodate CMC. We're still working on how to resolve the NorCal/SoCal # of races issue, but will have an answer very soon.

 

An item to share right now - NASA will be giving away one free entry at each event in 2010. All drivers registered and in attendance at an event will be eligible, so it's not performance but attendance based.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Guest

[jeffburch]

Yup.

As a former 3rd gen owner I'll say it one last time.

 

WHAT A GOOD IDEA THIS CMC2 IS HUH?

 

 

jb

[Glenn]

as much as i feel your pain Mike about your numbers, you really are pissing up a rope w/ me.

my CMC car at Nationals made 218/289 or something like that. here locally it makes 226/298 and before the rebuild (my first two years) it made 229/286. your complaing about something that most LT1's have had to endure since i've been w/ the series. i asked numberous times over the years for a legal resolution and was told no by you and Tony. it now affects you, and suddenly its a problem.

 

get one or both numbers below 260/300 and then we will see what happens. for now your speculating it will be an issue. the same speculation that the 305 TPI would never be able to land on table 2 was just as unfounded as the other "problems" you claim.

[Glenn]

also, its 2hp/7ftlbs that you need to shed. from what i know about you normal minimum weight, its really only 4ftlbs.

[Lady in Nomex]

The bottom line is that if people aren't happy with the product they don't buy it. Last year many NorCals sat out, some due to economy, some due to dissatisfaction with our high fees and split in the region.

 

Help me understand something, Julie. You mention the "high fees". In the research I've done, NASA CA hasn't raised entry fees in 3 years. So where is the complaint about high entry fees coming from?

 

We also observed, and continue to observe, our CMC regional reps in Northern CA busting their butts to fix things, make everyone happy, and NASA some $. Well, no happy and no money again this year apparently. I was planning to attend almost all the races, now just the min. to get into the Nationals.

 

Someone at NASA needs to step up and bring the magic back! CMC NorCal is the birthplace of CMC. It should not be disrespected!

 

As a CA outsider coming to race here at the beginning of 2008, the biggest thing missing.....the big party/camaraderie atmosphere we'd all heard so much about. It was very surprising.

 

Behind the scenes, NASA has been keenly aware of the lower car counts, and unhappy racers. I've been working on a "State of the Union" message for a few weeks, but between work, family and holidays, it's taken longer than I'd like.

 

The number of races is directly attributed to car count - it's very hard to demand NASA give us 3 races per weekend when we don't have enough cars to justify shuffling around other classes to accommodate CMC. We're still working on how to resolve the NorCal/SoCal # of races issue, but will have an answer very soon.

 

An item to share right now - NASA will be giving away one free entry at each event in 2010. All drivers registered and in attendance at an event will be eligible, so it's not performance but attendance based.

 

You missed the great years of CMC in California, and you also missed the lower pricing we got on events. I keep all my receipts, so I am happy to go over that one here after the holidays. Vaguely I remember T-Hill being $275 and all of a sudden it jumped to well over $300. About the same time Sears Pt. also had a jump in price. Once I post these figures I wonder what folks will say about this other regions. Are they also experiencing an increase in entry fees? This makes a big difference to those of us affected by the economy.

 

I know the bit about car count; it has a direct relationship to customer satisfaction. Trust me, there are people not seen in years who have their cars who would love to come out again if NASA could keep our loyal, hard-working reps and could dial back the sometimes very clumsy fingers (R888 decisions, CMC2 probs illustrated by Mike above) NASA has into our series.

[Adam Ginsberg]

You missed the great years of CMC in California, and you also missed the lower pricing we got on events. I keep all my receipts, so I am happy to go over that one here after the holidays. Vaguely I remember T-Hill being $275 and all of a sudden it jumped to well over $300. About the same time Sears Pt. also had a jump in price. Once I post these figures I wonder what folks will say about this other regions. Are they also experiencing an increase in entry fees? This makes a big difference to those of us affected by the economy.

 

The reality is everyone is effected by the economy. There are a number of reasons why event fees increase - insurance (a BIGGIE), track rental, operating costs, etc. Other regions have had increases, not just CA, so why should CA be exempt? Additionally, should CMC pay a different cost than other series? IMO, no.

 

I know the bit about car count; it has a direct relationship to customer satisfaction. Trust me, there are people not seen in years who have their cars who would love to come out again if NASA could keep our loyal, hard-working reps and could dial back the sometimes very clumsy fingers (R888 decisions, CMC2 probs illustrated by Mike above) NASA has into our series.

 

Yep, no doubt the Toyo decisions weren't the best. The CMC2 "problem" isn't an easy one, but we're doing our best to work through it. CMC, the original CMC class, hasn't changed much from when I got started in 2003. However, many have chosen to move to CMC2, and it was clear, at least to me, that class was going to continue to experience rules changes to level the playing field for all the platforms. Similar to how it was done for the original CMC class.