95 Mustang Winter Build for CMC 2010

[MHISSTC]

Hmmm...interesting.

 

Cutting away that area is one of those things I don't care if my competetors do. I guess that's because my foxbody hatchback doesn't have any metal there to begin with. Another reason I don't care is because it was stated a metal bulkhead (I'm guessing in anticipation of a trunk mounted fuel cell) will be installed in the future.

 

I know we don't like to make exceptions to rules, but with proof that a bulkhead is installed, couldn't an entry be made in the logbook that states it has been determined to be legal? Wouldn't this be similar to the case of the lightening holes in the hood understructure that were compensated for by adding weight back to the same area that equalling the amount of lightening done discussion that has been a popular reference lately?

 

Didn't somebody recently say asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission?

 

Another thought...

If he had already shown us a picture that had that area removed and already had the bulkhead installed, would anyone have known the difference? Would anyone have cared?

 

I know...

The real lesson here is ask before doing (cutting).

[Glenn]

The hood was an issue of an AI car (legal there) wanting to come to CMC. This was the only issue that was preventing him from doing so. The region at the time was very small and this was allowed to assist in the regional growth and to allow a simple fix for a minor issue.

 

So if you dont understand why that case is different than this one, I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to explain it.

Better to find out now than later. No promises that a similare fix would be allowed in this case like it was w/ the hood.

[Trevor571548534737]

That little piece of metal is pretty much tacked in, and can be removed, and replaced without cutting.

[MHISSTC]

Glenn,

 

I understand the history leading up to the solution was different, but the point I was trying to make is that a similar simple solution could be applied here also. A mistake was made in removing a chunk of insignificant piece of metal that probably shouldn't have been removed. If the piece even still exists, is he really going to be made to weld it back into place if there is a simpler solution available? The owner of the lightened hood wasn't required to weld up or fiberglass in all of the holes. Bolt a piece of angle iron in of the same weight or let him fab up a bulkhead. Acknowledge it in the log book. Done. Next problem.

[Glenn]

Glenn,

 

I understand the history leading up to the solution was different, but the point I was trying to make is that a similar simple solution could be applied here also. A mistake was made in removing a chunk of insignificant piece of metal that probably shouldn't have been removed. If the piece even still exists, is he really going to be made to weld it back into place if there is a simpler solution available? The owner of the lightened hood wasn't required to weld up or fiberglass in all of the holes. Bolt a piece of angle iron in of the same weight or let him fab up a bulkhead. Acknowledge it in the log book. Done. Next problem.

 

It isnt that cut and dry. I wish it was, but its not.

Lets say a prospective CMC'er shows up at an event and looks at the car in question. Takes lots of picks, goes home and cuts way. Shows up to the track and has the same illegal cut chassis. Now what?

At some point I fully expected this hood to be replaced. The car changed hands and spent some time in HPDE before getting back into wheel to wheel. At least w/ the hood, its a simple remove and replace and the issue will not exist anymore. W/ the car above, its not so simple. My bet is the part is still laying around and can be replaced. If not, a salvage yard will surely sell you one cheaply.

 

If I give Little Jimmy a sucker, will you want one too?

 

I'll PM the owner of the offending hood and ask that he cover the holes so as to not mislead other people who see his car.

[MHISSTC]

It isnt that cut and dry. I wish it was, but its not.

 

I understand.

 

If I give Little Jimmy a sucker, will you want one too?

 

Ha! I'm thinking of the cell phone commercial with the little girls and the pony. "Would you like a pony?" She nods and the guy hands her a toy. "Would you like a pony?" The other girl nods and out comes the real pony. The first girls says, "You didn't say I could have a real pony!" The guy responds, "You didn't ask."

 

Maybe the problem is not knowing what the questions are that we need to be asking ahead of time?

 

I'll PM the owner of the offending hood and ask that he cover the holes so as to not mislead other people who see his car.

 

I think that's overkill. It shouldn't be much trouble or expense finding another one.

 

 

There always seems to be a lot of confusion as to what folks can and can't do with their cars and how that relates to what the rules say and don't say you can and can't do. This doesn't seem to be limited to just the new folks, although it does seem to be more common as one learns the rules. Is this a problem with the way the rules are written, or the folks reading them? Is there any way these things can be made more clear without creating a document of epic proportions? Is there a way we can communicate it more effectively without simply replying "read the rules" and coming off as an ass? I've read the CCR and CMC rules backwards, forwards, and sideways too and I still have problems, so I don't really have a solution. I'm just wondering out loud in text.

[92MNstanger]

I don't know anything about SN95 tubs, but was that sheet metal used to mount the rear seat? Now with the rear seat gone isn't it an unused interior bracket and legal for removal?

[Al F.]

Avoiding these kind of situations is exactly why most club level series are either spec (you cant do anything) or open (you can do anything). Any time you try to draw the line somewhere other than at either end you have endless discussions about exactly where to draw the line. Thats not a bad thing...it just requires all of the players to be reasonable.

[DrC]

At this point of the build I want to keep it simple and the placement to be legal but still give me the best possible advantage based on the location of the rear mounting plate. I do not want any questions related to this area that would prevent me from getting my Log Book.

This is what my back seat area looks like I have not removed anything that could not be un-bolted as the rules say.

 

Back Seat of a 95 Mustang.

[TurboShortBus]

I don't know anything about SN95 tubs, but was that sheet metal used to mount the rear seat? Now with the rear seat gone isn't it an unused interior bracket and legal for removal?

To answer this question, I took a couple of photos this morning (I have only removed this piece of metal from the passenger side, but the driver side is intact) and highlighted one of them to show the outline of the piece as well as the OEM rear seat mounts.

 

 

The red line outlines the piece of metal, while the green circles show the OEM rear seat mount locations. Of the 2 green circles in the lower right corner, 1 is for the seat belt and the other is for the seat, but I can't remember which is which. I think the seat is the upper stud, not the lower bolt.

 

Based on Steve's comments, I suppose that one could look at that whole assembly as a "back seat mounting bracket." To take it even further, the horizontal part that abuts the rear glass could be a "rear speaker mounting bracket," but I have no desire to push that far, as I really only wanted more room to test-fit the roll cage rear kicker bars.

 

Also, based on Scott's comments above, a Fox Mustang doesn't have these pieces. They are likely part of the reason why SN95s are more rigid and heavier than the Foxes, and I just went ahead and eliminated one of those reasons, although it likely has very little affect on the overall structural integrity of the car (compared to a roll cage).

 

Since I do not have anything more accurate than a bathroom scale, I can only estimate that the weight of the piece that was cut out is no more than 1 or 2 pounds. While I used a spot weld cutter bit, I did mangle it pretty well on its way out. It is currently located in the corner of the garage, where I threw it a while back.

 

I'm not challenging Al's ruling here; I need to focus on building the cage first, and I'll worry about putting pieces of OEM tinfoil back in the car at a later date.

 

Give me some credit here...if I was truly trying to lose weight by cutting out chunks of metal, I sure as hell wouldn't pick the ones at the back of the car!

 

Mark

[DrC]

Based on the rules for CMC and Club Codes and Reg.

 

15.6.11 Rear Braces

The main hoop must have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be

attached as near as possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6)

inches below the top. The braces must not contain any bends*. There must be at

least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of the rear braces.

The main hoop rear braces shall be installed to form no more than a one hundred five

(105) degree angle or no less than a seventy-five (75) degree angle with the main hoop

when viewed from the top. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock

mounts or suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance

with all other sections of the CCR). They may go through any rear bulkhead(s) provided

the bulkhead(s) is sealed around the cage braces. *There may be certain exceptions

allowed for cars that cannot possible meet this “no bend†requirement. One exception is

listed [Ref:(15.6.11.A)]. Other exceptions may be made (not guaranteed) if all of the

required bars meet the specifications for a vehicle in the next heavier weight

classification and the alternative design is submitted to the NASA National Office for

special allowance.

 

I plan to put the Rear Brace (2) about here.

 

 

And the 4" x 4" plate here

 

[TurboShortBus]

I recommend that you notch that rear seat sheetmetal thing (the one I removed) so that you can move the kicker bar outboard a bit. Make your plate so that it turns up the shock tower, then move the kicker back a bit so that you can weld the kicker to the horizontal and vertical portions of the plate (keep it less than 6" from the end of the tube, though); this will tie the shock tower into the cage, while also connecting the kicker to the rear subframe. See my photos at the top of page 4. Win-win.

 

Also, you have a 100 square inch limit for each of your mounting plates, and you are only using 16 square inches. Make the plates bigger in order to spread out the load. This will also add a little more weight to the rear of the car that isn't considered ballast, but keep it on the down-low...ssssshhhhh...

 

Mark

[Glenn]

I recommend that you notch that rear seat sheetmetal thing (the one I removed) so that you can move the kicker bar outboard a bit. Make your plate so that it turns up the shock tower, then move the kicker back a bit so that you can weld the kicker to the horizontal and vertical portions of the plate (keep it less than 6" from the end of the tube, though); this will tie the shock tower into the cage, while also connecting the kicker to the rear subframe. Win-win.

 

Also, you have a 100 square inch limit for each of your mounting plates, and you are only using 16 square inches. Make the plates bigger in order to spread out the load. This will also add a little more weight to the rear of the car that isn't considered ballast, but keep it on the down-low...ssssshhhhh...

 

Mark

 

What he said.

[mitchntx1548534714]

This will also add a little more weight to the rear of the car that isn't considered ballast, but keep it on the down-low...ssssshhhhh...

 

Mark

 

And make them out of 1/2" plate ... for strength, of course.

[TurboShortBus]

This will also add a little more weight to the rear of the car that isn't considered ballast, but keep it on the down-low...ssssshhhhh...

 

Mark

 

And make them out of 1/2" plate ... for strength, of course.

Haha...yeah, I forgot about that part. But, good luck getting good heat and penetration on the 1/2" thick steel plates without blowing through the 20 or 22 gauge sheet metal back there. A professional could do it, but I certainly can't.

 

Mark

[Glenn]

You gotta bevel the edge of the 1/2" plate.

[mitchntx1548534714]

Mark, Mark, Mark ... you disapoint me, son.

 

The CCR only says the TUBES have to be welded 360*.

 

The plates can be tacked, bolted or even glued.

[TurboShortBus]

Mark, Mark, Mark ... you disapoint me, son.

 

The CCR only says the TUBES have to be welded 360*.

 

The plates can be tacked, bolted or even glued.

Dammit, man...well, the good news is that this roll of Velcro won't go to waste.

 

Mark

[mitchntx1548534714]

Actually, I don't know what the CCR says. Never read it ...

 

But it sounds good on the internet!

[Al F.]

It is currently located in the corner of the garage, where I threw it a while back.

I have a lot of parts like that. Notching that piece is A-OK and a great way to get the tube where you want it.

[DrC]

It doesn’t look like we have done much but we keep cutting and fitting and slowly wedding one part at a time.

 

 

Looks like I may have an issue with the front bar and my Gauges fit back in where there were before.

 

 

[stevemichael]

God, my wedding was expensive and slow...

[DrC]

I am working out to be cheap and SLOW!

[Sidney]

Dan,

 

You coming to Putnum on the 15th?

 

Sidney

CMC #64

[DrC]

If I can get the car running by this weekend i will be there.