driver's seat and interior.

[Trevor571548534737]

I want to move the seat and pedals towards the rear of the car. I couldn't find any specific rules, but I figured I would ask. Can I move my pedal assembly? can I move the drivers seat to any position?

[mitchntx1548534714]

7.6.1 ...

OEM seat mount points may be altered or reinforced.

 

You can mount the seat any way or any place you want.

 

 

7.8.1 ...

The driver's seatback must be reinforced by bracing the seat back to the roll cage unless it conforms to the FIA standard which does not

require a seat brace.

 

The back has to be braced by the roll cage if not an FIA seat. So that limits where you place it.

 

 

7.8.4 Modifications may be made to the foot pedals to improve the comfort and control accessibility for the

driver.

 

Sounds like you can alter the pedals to make them accessible.

 

I've always been under the impression that the pedal mounting had to remain in the stock location. But that says otherwise.

[Trevor571548534737]

That's what I got from that rule. The wording can be interpreted a few different ways.

[mitchntx1548534714]

That's what I got from that rule. The wording can be interpreted a few different ways.

 

Certainly does ...

[Glenn]

Dont do this for the purpose of moving weight rearward. the directors have already been working on re-wording the rules to prevent this.

in other words, you can move the stearing wheel back and the shifter back, but not the pedals. or the pedals and shifter and not the wheel. basically, pick two of the 3, but not all 3.

dont take advantage of the rules allowing for driver comfort adjustments for the purpose of gaining a competative advantige.

 

in my case, i'm 6'3". i need my seat back as far as i can get it as well as the strearing wheel. but moving the pedals back would be an obvious example of not following the intent of the rules.

 

7.8.4 does not allow for moving the pedals rearward. unless you medically meet the qualifications of "a little person" I would not let anyone move the pedals reaward.

this rule was to allow for adjustments needed for proper heal/toe footwork.

[mitchntx1548534714]

7.8.4 does not allow for moving the pedals rearward. unless you medically meet the qualifications of "a little person" I would not let anyone move the pedals reaward.

this rule was to allow for adjustments needed for proper heal/toe footwork.

 

So what does the word "modification" mean, then?

 

The term "modification" is used over and over in this rule set. Mst, if not all, allow changing the mounting configuration from stock, OEM to something else ... elongating, spacing, re-drilling, etc.

 

My guess is that the intent is the actual pedals can be lengthened, shortened, bent, altered or changed to accommodate driver comfort but must remain bolted in the OEM configuration and fashion.

 

Unfortunatelty, that rule doesn't say that.

 

 

Let me add ...

 

Before I made the first post, my first thought after reading Trevor's question was "How can he NOT understand what can and can't be done."

 

So, I went to the rules and read them. I didn't read the rules with that attitude, I read them asking myself "How did he come up with that interpretation?"

 

If it's possible to put on that kind of journalist hat and Covini colored glasses, you find a LOT of ways to interpret so called iron-clad rules.

 

Fortunately for Trevor, having been in this kind of whirlpool before, he asked the question.

[Glenn]

The rule doesnt just say "You can modify the pedals."

The word "modify" is used in along w/ in what way it can be modified, ie... for driver comfort and control accessibility. Since the rules do not say you can "....modify for the purpose of weight distribution..." and that is why he is asking to do it, it is not allowed in the rules.

He will not be any more comfortable w/ the seat, stearing wheel, shifter and pedals all moved back 10" than he would be w/ them where they are now.

[mitchntx1548534714]

All I'm saying is ...

 

7.6.1 allows the movement of the seat anywhere in the cabin you please

 

7.8.1 reigns that in by requiring it to be braced to the cage. If you chose an FIA seat, it does not apply.

 

And 7.8.4 allows for the driver to reach the pedals confortably.

 

That's it.

 

All that other "stuff" is in your head, not in the rules.

[Trevor571548534737]

Actually I will be more comfortable moving things back, because of the way the trans tunnel is in my car, as well as the shape of the floor. The further back I go, the lower the seat will sit, and will keep my head away from the halo.

[liebbe1548534713]

The rule states you can modify the pedals, period. Not the mount point, not the bracket, not anything else.

 

That's how I read it. If it doesn't say you can do something in the CMC rules, then you can't do it.

 

Now, given that, could he move the seat, the shifter, the steering wheel, and put 5 inch spacers on the pedals? Hmmm.....

[Glenn]

All I'm saying is ...

 

7.6.1 allows the movement of the seat anywhere in the cabin you please

 

7.8.1 reigns that in by requiring it to be braced to the cage. If you chose an FIA seat, it does not apply.

 

And 7.8.4 allows for the driver to reach the pedals confortably.

 

That's it.

 

All that other "stuff" is in your head, not in the rules.

 

You win.

It's not legal and will result in a car thats not legal, but you win.

[mitchntx1548534714]

Don't be mad, Glenn ...

 

 

 

 

I don't know how the pedals are in a Mustang, but they are one, big assembly in a 4th gen and called a pedal assembly.

 

A couple posts ago I said

 

My guess is that the intent is the actual pedals can be lengthened, shortened, bent, altered or changed to accommodate driver comfort but must remain bolted in the OEM configuration and fashion.

 

But the point is, we all have a lot of "tribal knowledge" that we've learned over the years dealing with kind of thing. It takes a while to figure out that the "intent" is to minimize what can be done to a 4th gen and maximize what can be done to a Mustang and 3G. It's a conspiracy, I tell you ...

 

I'm jus sayin' ...

[Al F.]

Actually you're both right.

 

Yes, the rules as written right now could be interpreted to enable one to move the driver pretty far back. This was brought up during this last rules revision period. Every single director agreed that we did not want folks moving the driver backwards for the single benefit of weight distribution...but we also could not agree on a good way to word that in without opening up other problems around good driver placement (keeping in mind some of us are pretty tiny and some are pretty big). In the end we decided to leave the rules as they were, not delay publishing, and try to come up with something soon.

 

If any of you have any suggestions as to how to write in the intent (allow the flexibility to position the driver so they can correctly manage the controls and see out) without running enabling pushing this to a competitive advantage please let us know

[TurboShortBus]

I mentioned this exact topic in a cage building thread over on Corner-Carvers.com last summer (see posts by MarkMc26), although I was not looking for CMC approval in that thread (I would come here for it, and I suppose that I'm doing that now). I'm in the process of slowly building a cage for my 2004 GT, and while it is currently being used for TT competition, I plan to move into CMC or CMC-2 with it. I'm 6'-2", but my preferred driving position still has me sitting a bit far forward.

 

I want to move my seating position back approximately 11" (as far as reasonably possible), but not for weight distribution reasons; I want to get as far away from the A-pillar as possible, especially after seeing photos of crashed cars where the A-pillar cage areas were compromised or failed (even Brad Keselowski had a problem with that yesterday). Besides, using a head containment seat, combined with an A-pillar reinforcement bar (FIA-style or NASCAR-style) means that, with the seat near the stock location, you have a very narrow opening to crawl through if you cannot open the door; if you're 5 feet tall, then may the force be with you. Moving the seat back nearly a foot will give a lot more room. A buddy of mine has an AI Mustang with a head containment seat but no secondary A-pillar bracing, and he has a hell of a time getting out of the car when he's not in a rush.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to BS anybody by claiming that moving 240 lbs of weight a foot rearward in a car with 60% of its weight on the nose won't help its performance; this might be a result, but it is not the intent. I'm not trying to create a performance advantage under the guise of safety, either.

 

In that thread on Corner-Carvers, I compiled several of the individual rules regarding steering, seat, shifter, and pedals, and while I was accused of reading them "with Smokey Yunick glasses" (why, thank you, but I'm no Smokey Yunick), the wording suggested that such modifications would be allowed. The rule of "if it's not specifically allowed, then it's not allowed" did not seem to apply to them. However, a CMC participant chimed in and said that he would disallow these particular modifications, as he wanted a driver's series and not a builder's series. Fair enough, but again, I'm doing this for safety reasons.

 

7.8.1 The driver's seat must be replaced with a seat suitable for competition. The driver's seatback must be reinforced by bracing the seat back to the roll cage unless it conforms to the FIA standard which does not require a seat brace. A head restraint system meeting the CCR requirements must be used to cushion the driver's head from behind.

^^^ Nothing says where the seat has to be mounted. Seat mounting location needs to be flexible to accommodate the short and tall ends of the driver spectrum, anyway.

 

7.8.2 Any steering wheel may be used other than wooden models. Quick release mechanisms and spacers may be used to move the steering wheel location, but the OEM steering column must be used.

^^^ Fair enough; a 12" spacer could be used to move the steering wheel back.

 

7.8.3 Any shift knob may be used.

^^^ No problem here.

 

7.8.4 Modifications may be made to the foot pedals to improve the comfort and control accessibility for the driver.

^^^ Right; the pedals would be modified.

 

7.27.3. Any shifter or shift linkage may be used.

^^^ Right; extended linkage would be used.

 

7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford vehicles.

^^^ No problem there.

 

7.33.12 Aftermarket steering shafts or shaft components, defined as the components connecting the steering rack/box to the steering column, may be used.

^^^ If one wanted to stretch the rules a bit and move the stock steering column rearward (in order to avoid using a 12" spacer), then this rule could be used to install an extended steering shaft that would connect the rack to the relocated column.

 

I have seen interior and exterior photos of some of your cars (I have been researching the hell out of cages for the last several months, as I was on funemployment all summer and had nothing but free time), and I must say that I'm not thrilled with how far forward some of the shorter people sit; the seating positions are too close to the A-pillar bars for my comfort. Other cars that I have seen do not leave much room for escape if a secondary A-pillar bar is installed; this works against the driver trying to get out and/or the safety personnel trying to reach the driver.

 

I spoke to a road race cage fabricator a couple of months ago, and his comment was that he wished the CMC rules would allow for seat setback in order to get away from the A-pillars. But, all this means is that he and I share an opinion.

 

None of this is restricted in TT or AI; however, I have the challenge of building a car for both TT and CMC. I have no desire to run AI, as both of our regular AI drivers down here like to crash into each other and seem to think it's funny. But, if what I believe to be a safer configuration excludes me from CMC, then so be it, I guess. If I'm going to be the lone car in CMC, then I can be the lone car in PTD or an AI backmarker just as easily.

 

I'm not intending to single anybody out, but if somebody wants to say, "That's illegal" without having any specific written rules in place to support that claim, then I'm going to call shenanigans. If it is the CMC group's intent to limit or prohibit this type of construction, regardless of safety or performance reasons, then it should be in the rulebook where people who don't frequent these message boards can read it. As an offer to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, I am willing to make some rule re-writing suggestions, as I have done in the past to clarify some TT rules.

 

Mark

[Trevor571548534737]

 

If any of you have any suggestions as to how to write in the intent (allow the flexibility to position the driver so they can correctly manage the controls and see out) without running enabling pushing this to a competitive advantage please let us know

 

 

"No more than xx distance moved from oem" could work.

 

Change the wording so that the pedal assembly, or pedal arms cannot be altered.

[mitchntx1548534714]

if somebody wants to say, "That's illegal" without having any specific written rules in place to support that claim

 

That's where the catch-all term "intent" comes into play.

 

For those who have been emersed in CMC for years or been submerged in these types of conversations, you come to realize intent encompasses a LOT of things CMC, including rules written open to multiple interpretations.

 

For those who have yet to be baptised, you get to be chastised, blacklisted and/or ridiculed on the internet till you submit.

 

Don't consider it hazing, rather a right of passage ... consumating your relationship with CMC.

 

I'm jus' sayin ...

[Glenn]

I mentioned this exact topic in a cage building thread over on Corner-Carvers.com last summer (see posts by MarkMc26), although I was not looking for CMC approval in that thread (I would come here for it, and I suppose that I'm doing that now). I'm in the process of slowly building a cage for my 2004 GT, and while it is currently being used for TT competition, I plan to move into CMC or CMC-2 with it. I'm 6'-2", but my preferred driving position still has me sitting a bit far forward.

 

I want to move my seating position back approximately 11" (as far as reasonably possible), but not for weight distribution reasons; I want to get as far away from the A-pillar as possible, especially after seeing photos of crashed cars where the A-pillar cage areas were compromised or failed (even Brad Keselowski had a problem with that yesterday). Besides, using a head containment seat, combined with an A-pillar reinforcement bar (FIA-style or NASCAR-style) means that, with the seat near the stock location, you have a very narrow opening to crawl through if you cannot open the door; if you're 5 feet tall, then may the force be with you. Moving the seat back nearly a foot will give a lot more room. A buddy of mine has an AI Mustang with a head containment seat but no secondary A-pillar bracing, and he has a hell of a time getting out of the car when he's not in a rush.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to BS anybody by claiming that moving 240 lbs of weight a foot rearward in a car with 60% of its weight on the nose won't help its performance; this might be a result, but it is not the intent. I'm not trying to create a performance advantage under the guise of safety, either.

 

In that thread on Corner-Carvers, I compiled several of the individual rules regarding steering, seat, shifter, and pedals, and while I was accused of reading them "with Smokey Yunick glasses" (why, thank you, but I'm no Smokey Yunick), the wording suggested that such modifications would be allowed. The rule of "if it's not specifically allowed, then it's not allowed" did not seem to apply to them. However, a CMC participant chimed in and said that he would disallow these particular modifications, as he wanted a driver's series and not a builder's series. Fair enough, but again, I'm doing this for safety reasons.

 

7.8.1 The driver's seat must be replaced with a seat suitable for competition. The driver's seatback must be reinforced by bracing the seat back to the roll cage unless it conforms to the FIA standard which does not require a seat brace. A head restraint system meeting the CCR requirements must be used to cushion the driver's head from behind.

^^^ Nothing says where the seat has to be mounted. Seat mounting location needs to be flexible to accommodate the short and tall ends of the driver spectrum, anyway.

 

7.8.2 Any steering wheel may be used other than wooden models. Quick release mechanisms and spacers may be used to move the steering wheel location, but the OEM steering column must be used.

^^^ Fair enough; a 12" spacer could be used to move the steering wheel back.

 

7.8.3 Any shift knob may be used.

^^^ No problem here.

 

7.8.4 Modifications may be made to the foot pedals to improve the comfort and control accessibility for the driver.

^^^ Right; the pedals would be modified.

 

7.27.3. Any shifter or shift linkage may be used.

^^^ Right; extended linkage would be used.

 

7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford vehicles.

^^^ No problem there.

 

7.33.12 Aftermarket steering shafts or shaft components, defined as the components connecting the steering rack/box to the steering column, may be used.

^^^ If one wanted to stretch the rules a bit and move the stock steering column rearward (in order to avoid using a 12" spacer), then this rule could be used to install an extended steering shaft that would connect the rack to the relocated column.

 

I have seen interior and exterior photos of some of your cars (I have been researching the hell out of cages for the last several months, as I was on funemployment all summer and had nothing but free time), and I must say that I'm not thrilled with how far forward some of the shorter people sit; the seating positions are too close to the A-pillar bars for my comfort. Other cars that I have seen do not leave much room for escape if a secondary A-pillar bar is installed; this works against the driver trying to get out and/or the safety personnel trying to reach the driver.

 

I spoke to a road race cage fabricator a couple of months ago, and his comment was that he wished the CMC rules would allow for seat setback in order to get away from the A-pillars. But, all this means is that he and I share an opinion.

 

None of this is restricted in TT or AI; however, I have the challenge of building a car for both TT and CMC. I have no desire to run AI, as both of our regular AI drivers down here like to crash into each other and seem to think it's funny. But, if what I believe to be a safer configuration excludes me from CMC, then so be it, I guess. If I'm going to be the lone car in CMC, then I can be the lone car in PTD or an AI backmarker just as easily.

 

I'm not intending to single anybody out, but if somebody wants to say, "That's illegal" without having any specific written rules in place to support that claim, then I'm going to call shenanigans. If it is the CMC group's intent to limit or prohibit this type of construction, regardless of safety or performance reasons, then it should be in the rulebook where people who don't frequent these message boards can read it. As an offer to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, I am willing to make some rule re-writing suggestions, as I have done in the past to clarify some TT rules.

 

Mark

 

There are many, many, many things about the CMC rules that compromise safety.

I worked w/ LG Motorsports (Think World Challenge C5/6, Grand Am) durring my 1st CMC build. He worked w/ NASA to try and get them to allow CMC to attach the cage to the body w/ gusset plates much like AI can. He told them of his dealings w/ 4th gen F-bodies in World Challenge way back when - all in the name of safety.

Lexan windshields - we should have them due to it being safer.

 

The list goes on. The point is, There are limits. I'm 6'3" at 250+. I have the extra bar between the A-piller and the door bars and i have zero issues getting out of the car. I moved my seating position down and tilted back to get the head room i needed.

This is an entry level class where the rules were written from the POV of taking a street/HPDE car and making the jump to racing.

As far you not feeling there is adequate wording in the rules to limit your seating position..... there will be in 2011. This was an action item last year but was never finalized. It will be a priority this year.

My bet is the stearing colum will be required to be mounted in the OEM location (it is now since it doesnt say you can relocate it). The pedals will be required to be mounted in the OEM location. Slave shifter handles will not be allowed.

[Trevor571548534737]

In my car the dash skeleton that the steering column mounts to from the factory was removed to install the cage. Now what?

[Glenn]

Where in the rules does it say you can do that?

[Adam Ginsberg]

Where in the rules does it say you can do that?

 

7.8.7, 7.8.8, 7.8.9 could ALL be used to support that.

 

BTW - there is at least one car in the TX region that's had a remote shifter for ~2 or 3 years. No one has told that driver his setup is illegal, nor has he been DQ'd.

[Sidney]

Trevor,

 

Get a hold of Bryan White immediately. You need to slow down your build and walk through these issues with Bryan. CMC is a very, very restricted class and you just can't go cutting up the car. You should be thinking of it as "Everything stays...now how do I put the cage in" and not "Let's build a cage and put the stuff back in that we can".

 

You need to get the dash back in and the steering column & pedals back in the stock location. If you need to cut out the cross bar to do that then get it done.

 

Same theory goes for the air cleaner, brake ducts, oil cooler, seat!, wheels/tires,...etc. If the parts you are trying to use don't fit with the stock sheetmetal then chances are you're using the wrong parts. Instead of a 4 in tall air cleaner you'll need to drop down to a 3 and not cut out the hood. There are also limits on the amount of front fascia you can cut out for brake ducts and such. Regarding your seat: Don't put it as far back as you want then expect to move the pedals and steering wheel. Place the seat so you can reach the pedals, period.

 

This class is NOT American Iron and almost anything goes. CMC is just a small step for Showroom stock and more of a drivers class. Build a simple, reliable car, and we'll teach you to race!

 

Sidney Franklin

Midwest Region

CMC #64

[TurboShortBus]

In my car the dash skeleton that the steering column mounts to from the factory was removed to install the cage. Now what?

Is your car an SN95? I can say that, in my SN95, the column support structure interferes with my intended routing for the dash crossbar. I know that "other cars" use dash crossbars that clear the steering column and its support structure, but I'm not building the safety system (aka roll cage) around the interior items; I'd rather build an improved safety system and let the interior tidbits fall where they may, within reason.

 

Here is a shot of my SN95 with the dash shell and steering column removed. I drilled the spot welds that held the passenger's half of the steel structure to the driver's half, then bead blasted and painted the driver's half. I then cut the dash shell in half, and am currently only using the driver's half of the shell for TT competition. With a few small brackets, I can easily put the passenger's half of the shell back in for CMC.

 

Foxes are quite different than SN95s in the steering column and structure area. Here is a photo of my former 1986 SVO (I received it in this condition).

 

Mark

[Trevor571548534737]

7.8.7 The OEM stock dashboard must remain intact except to accommodate the installation of the roll cage.

7.8.8 Other than the stock dash, all other interior parts and panels, including all passenger seats may be

removed. Undercoating may be removed. Floor mats, spare tire, tools, jacks, etc. must be removed.

There must be no remaining sharp edges that could come in contact with the driver. Other than to provide

for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger

compartment alterations or gutting is permitted.

7.8.9 Any unused interior brackets may be removed. There must be no remaining sharp edges.

 

The metal under the stock dashboard is not mentioned, and I would consider it "unused accessory brackets." I read nothing about not being able to mount the stock steering column to the roll cage.

[Sidney]

The metal under the stock dashboard is not mentioned, and I would consider it "unused accessory brackets." I read nothing about not being able to mount the stock steering column to the roll cage.

 

Trevor,

 

The "Metal under the stock dashboard" is used to mount your steering column and pedals and needs to stay there! You've got to change your way of thinking about building a CMC car. If the rules don't say you can do then you can't. Repeat that a few times...please!

 

Sidney

[Trevor571548534737]

That sucks. The cage is done, and I am worried the oem steering column mount won't go back in there.