TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 My bet is the stearing colum will be required to be mounted in the OEM location (it is now since it doesnt say you can relocate it)No problem, although the aforementioned 12" spacer between the steering wheel and stock-location steering column is currently legal. The pedals will be required to be mounted in the OEM location.What is to keep somebody from leaving the OEM pedals in their OEM location, installing another set of OEM pedals 12" rearward of them, then connecting the 2 sets of pedals with Heim joints and rods so that the rear set of pedals actuated the front set? The OEM pedals are in the OEM location, and modifications have been made for comfort and accessibility, so everything seems legal to me. While this scenario may be a bit of a stretch, I don't feel that enough exclusions have been listed to prevent it. Slave shifter handles will not be allowed.Then a big, goofy-ass, 12" long, rearward extension handle could be attached to the normal transmission shifter base. I'm not saying that it would work properly or that it wouldn't be awkward to operate, but it would fit within the "no slave shifter handle" rule addition. If nothing else, take my interpretations into consideration when writing the 2011 rules if these are interpretations that you would like to avoid. FWIW, as an architect and construction project manager, a portion of my scope of work involves interpreting building codes and, when necessary, requesting clarifications as they apply to my project with the hopes that the clarifications work to the project's advantage. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Where in the rules does it say you can do that? 7.8.7, 7.8.8, 7.8.9 could ALL be used to support that. BTW - there is at least one car in the TX region that's had a remote shifter for ~2 or 3 years. No one has told that driver his setup is illegal, nor has he been DQ'd. name that driver please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Where in the rules does it say you can do that? 7.8.7, 7.8.8, 7.8.9 could ALL be used to support that. BTW - there is at least one car in the TX region that's had a remote shifter for ~2 or 3 years. No one has told that driver his setup is illegal, nor has he been DQ'd. 7.8.7 The OEM stock dashboard must remain intact except to accommodate the installation of the roll cage. This has nothing to do the the stearing colum mount. 7.8.8 Other than the stock dash, all other interior parts and panels, including all passenger seats may be removed. Undercoating may be removed. Floor mats, spare tire, tools, jacks, etc. must be removed. There must be no remaining sharp edges that could come in contact with the driver. Other than to provide for the installation of required safety equipment or other authorized modifications, no other driver/passenger compartment alterations or gutting is permitted. This has nothing to do w/ the stearing colum mount. 7.8.9 Any unused interior brackets may be removed. There must be no remaining sharp edges. Since the stearing colum mount is still used, this does not apply either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 (edited) Hmm, what else is there? Let's say that the main hoop is set about 12" behind its typical location (regardless of seat/steering/pedal/shifter location), such as this: Per the rule that states that the 150 lb maximum amount of ballast cannot be any further back than the front plane of the roll cage main hoop, this has just allowed the ballast to be moved a foot rearward. Is that acceptable as well? Per what I'm reading in the rules now, it is. I'm just throwing my interpretations out there. If you want to know how to make a bank theft-proof, then you ask a thief for his advice. Mark Edited March 9, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Since the stearing colum mount is still used, this does not apply either. In Trevor57's case, the OEM steering column mount is no longer used, as the steering column is now attached to the roll cage. The OEM steering column mount is now an unused interior bracket (AKA a bracket not being used within the interior of the car). I'm just sayin'... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 My bet is the stearing colum will be required to be mounted in the OEM location (it is now since it doesnt say you can relocate it)No problem, although the aforementioned 12" spacer between the steering wheel and stock-location steering column is currently legal. Your correct. If a guy is very tall, like me, I need the seat as far back as i can get it so my feet can work the non-relocated pedals w/out tripping over myself. Even the OEM seat didnt go far enough back for me. The pedals will be required to be mounted in the OEM location.What is to keep somebody from leaving the OEM pedals in their OEM location, installing another set of OEM pedals 12" rearward of them, then connecting the 2 sets of pedals with Heim joints and rods so that the rear set of pedals actuated the front set? The OEM pedals are in the OEM location, and modifications have been made for comfort and accessibility, so everything seems legal to me. While this scenario may be a bit of a stretch, I don't feel that enough exclusions have been listed to prevent it. It is a major stretch. The rules do not allow for a 2nd set of pedals. Slave shifter handles will not be allowed.Then a big, goofy-ass, 12" long, rearward extension handle could be attached to the normal transmission shifter base. I'm not saying that it would work properly or that it wouldn't be awkward to operate, but it would fit within the "no slave shifter handle" rule addition. You can do that. I have in a round about way. I made a peice of plate that bolts to the shifter and the handle bolts to it. moved the handle back 1-2" and angled it back 5-10 degree's. If nothing else, take my interpretations into consideration when writing the 2011 rules if these are interpretations that you would like to avoid. FWIW, as an architect and construction project manager, a portion of my scope of work involves interpreting building codes and, when necessary, requesting clarifications as they apply to my project with the hopes that the clarifications work to the project's advantage. And if that what you want, the rules will be 500+ pages long and require interpretation by your lawyer. Stop trying to out engineer the CMC World and build a car to race. ITS A DRIVER CLASS, NOT A FABRICATORS/LOOPHOLE CHASERS CLASS!!!!! Mark my comments added in bold above. [/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor571548534737 Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 I am reading the rules with intent in mind. I never thought mounting the steering column to the cage was an advantage. I also would think that if you needed to mount the column to the stock column mount it would say in the rules "The stock steering column must be mounted to the stock mount." The rules say that you can move the the steering column, but says NOTHING about what it needs to be attached to. I am not trying to find loopholes, or cheat, or find small advantages. I am just trying to build a car without my head resting on the halo. I do have much to learn about rule interpretation, and building cars. In fact the reason I am in CMC is because I am a much better driver than I am a fabricator, engine builder, or suspension engineer. In fact I hadn't even touched a cam until last night. I came here to get answers, and make sure the car is legal. If I thought I was doing something against the spirit of the rules I sure would not be announcing it to the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 no, the rules do not say you can move the stearing colum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 And if that what you want, the rules will be 500+ pages long and require interpretation by your lawyer. Stop trying to out engineer the CMC World and build a car to race. ITS A DRIVER CLASS, NOT A FABRICATORS/LOOPHOLE CHASERS CLASS!!!!! Unfortunately, any time there are rules in a non-spec class, there will be loopholes and people who are specifically looking for those loopholes. My philosophy is that if I'm going through the effort to build a race car for a particular class, then I'm going to build it to work as well as possible within those rules; anybody can half-ass a project just to get on track quickly, and I'm not that guy. However, I'm not saying that everybody here has a half-assed car, so please don't take offense. Again, I have only listed my interpretations here, and by doing so, I believe that I have pointed out several valid loopholes (which apparently need to be closed). Rather than "yelling" (usage of bold text, the caps lock, and numerous exclamation points), it might be more productive to keep my comments in mind when writing the revised rules if designs such as these are not desired. I'm not saying that I have already built the car with my interpretations in mind and am trying to ramrod it through the approval process. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I am just trying to build a car without my head resting on the halo. I'm with you on that one. Just getting the driver inboard of the halo (and the main hoop/cage envelope, which tapers inward toward the top) is never a bad idea. The OEM orientation of an SN95 steering column actually has it pointing slightly toward the LR tire; it is not parallel with the centerline of the car. Actually, by the time you get back to the steering wheel, it is 2" offset to the driver's side from the point where the steering shaft comes through the firewall. Whether the rules say it's OK or not, it has been my plan to relocate the driver's seat inward (toward the tranny tunnel) about 2" in order to get away from the side of the car, for safety reasons; combined with outward-bent side bars, there should be a good distance between the driver and a side impact. To keep the steering wheel centered on the new seating position, the column mounts would be redrilled to make the column parallel to the car's centerline and to shift the wheel 2" inward as well. It sounds like this is frowned upon as well for a CMC car. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 See what you started Glenn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 The main thing that needs to be understood about the CMC rules is "intent". Do not over-complicate things. My brother and I have butted heads for the last 5 years b/c he always looks at my car and tries to find ways to get that extra advantage with the grey areas in the rules. (BTW, he races in AI) As neat it is to come up with unique parts, upgrades, and tweaks that really is not what CMC is meant to be. If there is something that is not 1000% black and white in the rules, consult with your local or national director. Heck, if you are starting a new build, send an e-mail to your director with 30 questions of concerning areas you foresee and I guarantee they will answer all of them. I can't count the number of times I made a phone call to get a quick 2 minute answer and the phone called turned into an hour long conversation about 10 different ideas. They are there to help out (even though it doesn't seem so at times). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Who is the numero uno, national-level CMC person who can answer questions about roll cages? It has been my experience, as a regional TT director, that the interpretations of regional directors may differ from those of the national director, which will open up a can of worms if/when a car is approved at the local level but fails an inspection at nationals. FWIW, I called the main NASA number last summer to ask CCR-level questions about minimum roll cage requirements, and nobody there was able to answer a few basic questions. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Al Fernandez is the National Direcotr. He is also the lead Texas CMC Director. CMC had the "lack of communication" issues in years past. That all came to a head at the first National Event in 2006. Since then we have made huge strides to all be on the same page. In fact, there is a new group email going around now amoung the CMC staff over all this. call me if you want. 817-301-5224 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Aardvark Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 BTW, just as another voice, one of our team's 2 drivers has to sit so far forward to use the pedals in our Firebird (even with 2" spacers on the pedals) that she can't use a halo containment seat. There's no way she could crawl between the A-pillar/cage and the halo. As is, I still worry about a front impact and what the steering wheel would do to her ribcage If we could move the pedals (and/or the wheel) for safety, I'd love it. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted March 9, 2010 Members Share Posted March 9, 2010 What is to keep somebody from leaving the OEM pedals in their OEM location, installing another set of OEM pedals 12" rearward of them, then connecting the 2 sets of pedals with Heim joints and rods so that the rear set of pedals actuated the front set? That is why I love hanging out with racers Michael, great explanation. Making rules absolutely clear (to the extent that you do not need to talk to another human and build a car to the fullest limit but yet be legal) and having rules that are not as long as the Fed tax laws are in fact conflicting priorities. You cannot have both. They can get better, but so will the builders at looking for loopholes Please do talk to your local director when you have questions or ideas. They're there to help. If the issue is interpretation of a rule, they are under instructions to bring it up to the entire group of directors unless its something they've been over before and are positive we're all on the same page. If you're in doubt, ask him! Ask for an email from the body of directors that you can print and put into your log book. That way you'll have all the ammo you need when you go to another region/nationals/etc. I will of course be happy to discuss with anyone, but I'll also go to the rest of the directors unless I know we've been down that same road before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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