TurboShortBus Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Ah, gotcha. R&D stage now. That makes sense. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermBua Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) His low tq curve is sweet.My 5.0 did 261/295 and our tq curves from 4k up look identical but his is much higher from 2-4k. He must be cheating. Those are tall words from some one with no picture or location. Edited January 28, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 His low tq curve is sweet.My 5.0 did 261/295 and our tq curves from 4k up look identical but his is much higher from 2-4k. He must be cheating. Those are tall words from some one with no picture or location. Inside joke. No worries. He is the NASA Texas RD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermBua Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 His low tq curve is sweet.My 5.0 did 261/295 and our tq curves from 4k up look identical but his is much higher from 2-4k. He must be cheating. Those are tall words from some one with no picture or location. Inside joke. No worries. He is the NASA Texas RD. Oh..... ok then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I have the exact same set-up in my car as Jeremy does. On Friday my car (the 55) made almost the same numbers (262/297) as the 22 but the Air/fuel was perfect without me having to do the things Jeremy did to get his car to not be lean. Several tuners have told Jeremy that without a tune the set-up we are running (open air filter, long tubes with dual 2.5" exhaust pipes, under drives, and the 10.5 to 1 compression) will run lean as his did. The 22 was way lean not just a little. I don't remember the exact number but 14.7 to 15.0 comes to mind. Some in Texas are sure my car has a tune in it because of the former owner (Tony G). I say BS. Tony would have to be a fool to sell a car with a tune in it while he is the national CMC director. If he had run a tune when he owed the car he's smart enough to remove it before selling it to me. Sorry to stir up so much $hit but either something is wrong with the 22 or the 55 has a tune in the computer. What device do we need to look at what is on my computer (to see if it's the stock tune)? I'm not going to spend the money to have the computer re-flashed when we don't know what is on it. I'm betting there is no tune on the 55's computer and something is wrong with the 22. Jeremy has spent many hours and big dollars changing parts and dyno time. He is sure you can't make my numbers (air/fuel numbers) without a tune. Hell, I don't know maybe he is right! So now you all know where we are on this. JJ 55 CMC2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 As Jerry said, please help us collect data to address this. Are you 4.6 guys having issues making the number and if not, what did you do to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Racer Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Jerry & Jeremy have you tried swapping ECUs with each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Jerry & Jeremy have you tried swapping ECUs with each other? PATS. We were going to do it but neither car would start with the other ECU. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermBua Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I know Tony very well. I was there when we dynoed all the cars. The car was origanly going to be an AI car. We had to put the original computer in and change the air flow meter back to stock. Ask the dyno owner when was the last time AFR sensor was replaced. Are you guy's using an in car one? Also When Jeremy Dynoed the 55 car. Was the car getting ehough fresh air. This will change things in a big way. Make it look richer than what it really is. I drop a .3-.5 (leaner) from dyno to track. Even with huge fans blowing fresh air to the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiMifan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Some in Texas are sure my car has a tune in it because of the former owner (Tony G). I say BS. Tony would have to be a fool to sell a car with a tune in it while he is the national CMC director. If he had run a tune when he owed the car he's smart enough to remove it before selling it to me. Ask Boudy about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxCMC22 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Ok guys, here is what my research has found. I won't discuss the fix in detail until the directors decide. I would however like your input if you are running a 4.6 two valve GT motor, 96 block with PI heads, long tube headers, pulleys, stock tune with 19lb injectors, and the 99-04 fuel system and computer. I have talked to several tuners in my area that tell me the stock GT computer / fuel system can not handle the mods that we have done to it. The compression along with the long tubes is causing a lean issue at full throttle and there is no way to fix this without a tune. I have found a fix for it, but getting it legalized is another story. I need your input if you are running in CMC2 with these mods. If you don't want to post here, please e-mail me at [email protected] or call me at 214-636-2212. Can you make the CMC2 Numbers? 260HP 300+ TQ? if so what is your Air Fuel Ratio at full throttle? Are you willing to send me your dyno run files? Also, I don't believe Jerry's number 55 is cheating, but for some reason his car is doing what I am told can't be done. Again, this is not pointing a finger, just trying to figure out if this problem is my motor computer combo, or if it a true issue among the 4.6L motors that needs to be addressed. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me know what you got. If you know someone in your region running CMC2 with this combo, can you please post up or e-mail me their names. I am starting to believe there aren't that many people running this motor combo in the country, if there are I would like to be able to discuss the issues you have compared to what I have. All the money and time I have put into this is not only for myself, but also to better the series! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiMifan Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Assuming you are both running the same type of stock ECU, it would be interesting for you and Jerry to swap computers on the dyno and compare the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 In order to satisfy the PATS, what if you swapped ECUs and swapped the ignition key tumblers from the steering columns? Those tumblers pop out in a matter of seconds, and would allow the proper key/ECU combinations to be used. The PATS receivers should be fairly easy to swap as well, if necessary. Or, maybe it's not this simple. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted February 2, 2011 Members Share Posted February 2, 2011 I've been discussing this with both Jerry and Jeremy all along and part of our problem is simply the lack of data. Same as when we were evaluating the recently allowed timing adjuster, there just arent other cars with the 4.6 and the late fuel system running Many thanks to Jerry and Jeremy for their time and effort to figure this combo out and ensure it can make competitive numbers and be above board. More to come as we discover more, I'm sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 CMC Directors arranged a PCM swap at the track last weekend w/ the help of Jeremy and Jerry. It all came to a halt when PATS stopped Jeremy in his tracks. I don't know enough about Ford to have been able to offer up a solution. CMC was going to pay for the dyno time. We really need to allow anti-theft to be turned off in the PCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JermBua Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Does any one have access to an IDS scanner. I can get you the PATS code. To bad you guy's aren't closer. I could Program the key for you guy's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 22-Who are the tuners that you are talking with? How do they tune the computers? Can they read a computer and look at the tune to tell if it is a stock tune? Don't the handheld tuners come with a stock tune that can be downloaded to any car? What method are you using to check your A/F? Have you checked it with multiple sources? At the dyno's I have been too those things frequently give bad readings and seem to be pretty touchy. Has everything been checked thorougly on your car? Since it is a lean condition it makes sense to look at fuel pressure and timing. Aren't you running a timing tuner? How much have you played with the timing on the dyno? What are your fuel pressure readings and what is the stock fuel pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxCMC22 Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 22-Who are the tuners that you are talking with? How do they tune the computers? Can they read a computer and look at the tune to tell if it is a stock tune? Don't the handheld tuners come with a stock tune that can be downloaded to any car? Tuners from Dallas Mustang, HPP, Reed speed. I have also talked to guys like cushman, who worked for Sean Hyland in the past. They use a tuner that you purchase, and the first tune read off the computer is saved as the "stock" tune... Ford mustang tunes are very different between, GT 5 speeds and autos. The 96-98 computers won't work, and the 4valve would blow up my motor. SO... keeping this tune is the only way within the rules. A guy by the name of Archie has been my main goto guy in the last few weeks, as he seemed to have the time and patience to help out. When I can afford it, I'm taking this dude out to a nice lunch or dinner, anyone want to join us to discuss the specifics? What method are you using to check your A/F? Have you checked it with multiple sources? At the dyno's I have been too those things frequently give bad readings and seem to be pretty touchy. Two dynos, Dallas Mustang and Alamo. Bung and clip on exhaust have been used. Both read the same thing... Has everything been checked thorougly on your car? Since it is a lean condition it makes sense to look at fuel pressure and timing. Aren't you running a timing tuner? How much have you played with the timing on the dyno? What are your fuel pressure readings and what is the stock fuel pressure? Fuel pressure is variable from the factory and it's within specs. The timing adjuster has been removed, and added, to / from the equation with no difference. Timing is set by the computer, and the timing adjuster only tricks the computer, and adds Computer timing + "X timing". There are ways to adjust fuel pressure through adding Stock voltage +"X voltage" to the stock pump. This was considered illegal in the years past and the device costs around $300. It also doesn't do anything but overwork the injectors and the fuel pump. Which we all know overworking anything on a roadrace car is plumb crazy! Here are the basics... 19lb injector at standard fuel pressure can produce ~300HP in a V8, at the flywheel. Drivetrain loss is said to be 18%, but even at 13 % this puts us at 100% duty cycle on the injector. SOOOOO.... the only way to increase fuel in the motor is to switch to 24lb injectors (per the rules). BECAUSE we cannot tell said computer that we are running 24lb injectors the computer doesn't know how to compensate at full throttle (closed loop). A 24lb calibrated MAF is still not the correct combo when the computer cannot be told what is going on at full throttle (closed loop)... Injectors and MAF... In open loop conditions, half throttle, the computer takes the information from the 02 sensors and adjusts fuel accordingly. so my car runs at 14.5 AF ratio in open loop. At closed loop, the computer looks at the MAF sensor and adjusts the time the fuel injectors are open accordingly. This means that with 19lb injectors at 100% duty cycle, it cannot put enough fuel into the high compression motor and is the reason I am running 15.5-15 AF ratio. So we MUST switch to 24lb injectors. when doing this we must be able to control the 24lb injector timing, and in comes the fix. This fix only effects the computer in closed loop, by changing the row it sees on the closed loop table and allows the larger injectors (which the computer still thinks are 19lb) to be open for less time. So I added too much fuel through the injectors and then leaned it back out. I can now put my car in the safer A/F ratios, like 13-13.5 with this fix. It only changes what the computer sees from the MAF, instead of going to the fuel pump, or the computer, or whatever it maybe to try and fix. It is by far the cheapest fix, which fixes the issue in closed loop, and can be verified "almost" any director (need electrical knowledge). It can be used to cheat with multiple devices, but then again, I could just put a tune in my computer, would anyone know? Don't worry, that would have been way too easy... I have been up front with anyone and everyone who has asked. I have called all directors in my chain of command. I have discussed with all of them, including the details of how the fix could be used to cheat. I was as up front as it gets, and did enough research to make your head spin... Luckily I was working in a situation where my attention wasn't needed 100% of the time, since I had over 40 hours of research in how to do this, and making it happen. I also spent way WAY too much money figuring this stupid motor out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 A far less painful (but likely unpopular) solution: Just go ahead and allow tuning of the stock ECU, as long as you fall under the HP and TQ numbers. Yeah yeah, it will allow people to maximize "the area under the curve," but it's not like it will mean a 10 mph difference down the back straight at Sebring. Hell, the Superchips tuner that came with my 2004 GT was only worth 2 rwhp and 3.5 rwtq at peak, with the biggest gain in the curves being ~5 rwhp and ~10 rwtq in the 3500-4000 rpm range. It will also allow easy elimination of PATS, the rear O2 sensors, and other smog-related equipment that will throw a check engine light when the ECU discovers that it is missing, as well as injector upgrades. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 UPDATE: I spent about 5 hours on the Dyno Sunday, without any conclusive evidence. but the search is not over. I believe I have found an issue with my air/fuel ratio. Although I haven't been able to pull codes (out of town this week) I will pull them as soon as I get home. I usually run 12.7 -13 AF ratio, I was running 14-14.7 all day on the Dyno. The consistency was not there due to the computers reaction to all of this (my opinion) We shall see what happens when I get this fixed. I will keep the updates coming... Please feel free to chime in with any ideas or information. There is a lot of manpower in Texas going into this, and we would love to have your opinions and experience on this. So what was the problem? What were the codes? Why were you able to run 14 this day? And what were your numbers? So how much fuel pressure does your car actually make on the dyno? And how much do the other crazy hybrids like yours make? What tuners do they use? Could you post a link to some to see? So they aren't able to actually look at the complete tune to see what is going on? Does CMC need to have one of these tuners so they can routinely download a stock tune to these hybrids? I still hate all this behind the scenes stuff when dealing with directors. I'm all for experimenting and looking for a better solution. Just seems that there could be more input if EVERYTHING was out in the open. I'm all for tuning the computer because I can't get numbers as good as you can with my LS1 and I'm not allowed a timing tuner. I think I could go spend the money on a dyno for a few days with several different exhuast systems to get some better numbers but it would be alot easier/cheaper to just tune the computer. So if whatever FIX you have come up with for your car is allowed hopefully this will be a segway into allowing the same types of stuff for the other platforms. Since we aren't allowed to tune and there isn't any checking going on we are still giving an open opportunity for someone to run a fully tuned computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Since we aren't allowed to tune and there isn't any checking going on we are still giving an open opportunity for someone to run a fully tuned computer. IMO, if you cannot enforce the rule, then you might as well not even have it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Right now, Jeremy's car is the only one of its kind having this issue that we know of. It is hard to legalize this when its not seen as a widespread problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxCMC22 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 It is hard to legalize this when its not seen as a widespread problem. How many are not having this problem Glenn? Take my extra computer, put it in the 55 car, Flash it with a stock tune, and remove pats in the process, and put the 55 back on the Dyno.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sacabuche Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do you know what the fuel pressure is at when the engine is in full load? WOT on the dyno? Have you compared readings from a mechanical gauge and what the sensor is tellng the computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do you know what the fuel pressure is at when the engine is in full load? WOT on the dyno? Have you compared readings from a mechanical gauge and what the sensor is tellng the computer? My fuel pressure gauge pegs at 60 when reving the engine. I don't know what the 22 does. I just installed a new fuel pump a few weeks ago. Here is my problem. These tuners are saying we need a tune for this set-up. My car (prior to the aluminum block and higher compression) was exactly the same as it is now (long tubes, cool air intake, open exhaust). Same exact parts removed off the old engine and installed on the aluminum engine. The only difference is the Steeda timing adjuster and more compression. Everything else is the same. I don't see how more compression could cause a lean condition but what do I know. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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