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Al F.

Nationals updat

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nasa-rm
Was that the same car Dave brought last year and raced regionly this year?

 

Pat,

 

Tower brace and cage is same as brought to Nationals in 2008 & 2009. It was legal then, but the new rule came into play in 2010 and I missed it.

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MHISSTC
Tower brace and cage is same as brought to Nationals in 2008 & 2009. It was legal then, but the new rule came into play in 2010 and I missed it.

 

If you look at the car, the cage-to-firewall attachment points and strut tower brace-to-firewall attachment points are so far apart it's totally obvious the intent was not to tie the cage into the engine bay bracing. Unfortunately, it still violated the black and white letter of the rule since there was less than 18" between them. Why is the limit 18"? I have no idea other than it probably sounded good at the time the rule was made. To be honest, I didn't even remember that rule had been made, but that's probably because we skipped quickly over it since our own cage doesn't tie into the firewall.

 

When we were all hanging around impound and discovered what the DQ was for, I guarantee there were a bunch of folks who were then wondering if their cars were legal and will now be double-checking the legality of their own firewall attachment points back at home.

 

While Joe was still with the car in impound, we brought up the idea of getting it grandfathered in for the exact reason that it had been deemed legal in prior years and because there was obviously no intent to tie the cage to the engine bay. Unfortunately, that line of discussion came to a quick end.

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KiMifan

It's very unfortunate when a new rule like that renders an existing legal car illegal, especially when the car in question was not even remotely stretching or pushing the limits of what the rule was intended to prevent. Dave's car is built in a way the original rules intended to allow, with a single brace from the rollcage to the firewall, which has been legal for a long time, along with a common factory and aftermarket bolt-on strut tower brace, which has also been legal for many years. In this case, the rule was intended to prevent circumventing the prohibition on bracing the rollcage through the firewall to the strut tower. A car like Dave's, with a bolt on strut tower brace that is not even close to butting against the brace on the other side of the firewall was obviously not what was being addressed with the rule change and there should have been a way to ensure that it remained legal after the new rule was adopted, rather than requiring him to cut out rollcage tubes or remove the brace, since those are the only two options. Unintended consequences like this are a sign of poorly thought out rules.

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Glenn
We could have protested from 5th place for the lexan window and cowel items but that would have only got us to 4th (at the time not knowing about Dave B's thing and the hp thing)..not worth it. Plus, sounds like it wouldnt have mattered.

 

One other thing regarding protesting, we have 30 minutes. Tech (in impound) didnt get to Dave B's car for close to 30 minutes. Once they did and found the infraction we were up to 4th. Well after that we found out about the hp thing which pushed us to 3rd. If they would have enforced the lexan window and cowel rule thing we could have been up to 2nd. We were out of time to file a protest for those two infractions and again, sounded like it wouldnt have been enforced so it saved us $150 ($75 per infraction I think is the cost) but cost us 2nd place.

 

Maybe something can be done about the 30 minute rule at National events.

 

You have 30 minutes from the time the results are official. Results are never official untill the Class Director calls them Official.

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mitchntx1548534714

You have 30 minutes from the time the results are official. Results are never official untill the Class Director calls them Official.

 

Is there a general announcement? A flag raised? a flare shot? text message? sandwich board?

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Den341548534727

I think trumpets are blared, doves are released and a jester announces: "Hear ye, hear ye!"...at least that's what I have always seen in the past.

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mitchntx1548534714
I think trumpets are blared, doves are released and a jester announces: "Hear ye, hear ye!"...at least that's what I have always seen in the past.

 

I figgered an aaahhh-oooo-ga horn for you middle world doods.

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KiMifan

The ironic thing about the funky quarter windows is that the current owner bought this car from Tim Laplante, a former CMC regional director and long-time California CMC guy. I saw the car a couple of times, maybe even raced against it a time or two, and I frankly don't even remember what they looked like, probably because the rest of the car was such a steaming pile that I got distracted.

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MHISSTC
...trumpets are blared, doves are released and a jester announces: "Hear ye, hear ye!"...

 

 

I guess we're still learning proper procedure.

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Glenn

You have 30 minutes from the time the results are official. Results are never official untill the Class Director calls them Official.

 

Is there a general announcement? A flag raised? a flare shot? text message? sandwich board?

 

If you have an issue you want to appeal or protest, inform the director you plan to do so once the results are finalized and you need to know so you can proceed.

Its not like they drove to an undisclosed location and text'ed in "Official" to Timing and Scoring, told no one and were no where to be found.

 

The point of my comment you quoted was it seems the person I was responding to felt as though he had 30 minutes from the drop of the checkered flag. Not so, but rather 30 minutes from the time the results are official.

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mitchntx1548534714

And my point was not knowing when that clock starts could be an issue.

 

At a Texas event, for example, while the location is not necessarily undisclosed, it is random.

 

"Official" seems to be when a competitor comes walking up with a time sheet in his hand.

 

30 minutes is a VERY short window of opportunity when the officials are at the Tech shed and I'm parked with Dr Frank down by the Stop sign at Hallett.

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Glenn

you win.

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mitchntx1548534714

Great ... typical ... not a problem in your eyes, so its not a problem period.

 

Let them eat cake ...

 

At some point in time you guys are going to realize that low car count is not just economy driven. It is a convenient excuse, however.

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Glenn
Great ... typical ... not a problem in your eyes, so its not a problem period.

 

Let them eat cake ...

 

At some point in time you guys are going to realize that low car count is not just economy driven. It is a convenient excuse, however.

 

Feel free to offer a solution when you point out a problem.

I never said it wasnt a possible problem. My only reason for my original comment was to clarify the time in which the 30 minute clock starts, which is obviously an opertunity for you to tangent the point towards another issue. There will be no resolution to the conversation as tangent apon tangent will be instituted. So I clearly cut to the thing you wanted.

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liebbe1548534713
Great ... typical ... not a problem in your eyes, so its not a problem period.

 

Let them eat cake ...

 

At some point in time you guys are going to realize that low car count is not just economy driven. It is a convenient excuse, however.

 

Feel free to offer a solution when you point out a problem.

I never said it wasnt a possible problem. My only reason for my original comment was to clarify the time in which the 30 minute clock starts, which is obviously an opertunity for you to tangent the point towards another issue. There will be no resolution to the conversation as tangent apon tangent will be instituted. So I clearly cut to the thing you wanted.

 

You two are like an old married couple. Argue-Argue-Argue-I Love You-Argue-You're a crotchity old bastard - I love you- Feed the cat you old fart - Argue-Argue-I respect him very much. I gues that is the magic in LAW Motorsports.

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AllZWay
You two are like an old married couple. Argue-Argue-Argue-I Love You-Argue-You're a crotchity old bastard - I love you- Feed the cat you old fart - Argue-Argue-I respect him very much. I gues that is the magic in LAW Motorsports.

 

I thought I was going to have to seperate them and send them to neutral corners a few times while they were building my cage.

 

They are brothers from different mothers for sure.

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MHISSTC
[...it seems the person I was responding to felt as though he had 30 minutes from the drop of the checkered flag. Not so, but rather 30 minutes from the time the results are official.

 

Yes. That's possible.

 

Dave T. was definitely more intent than I was on possibly protesting different noticeable items that were in contradiction to the rules. That's most likely because I tasked him with the job of ensuring our car was legal. He took that job very seriously, and very personally, and spent a considerable amount of time ensuring everything was OK. He also brought up a couple of items to Al well before the main race, just as he should have according to the CCR. Al's vibe was similar to mine in that unless it was an item that improved the performance of the vehicle, it probably wasn't worth filing a protest. I've come to realize that attitude can probably be both good and bad. It's probably good with respect to regional races where we have a range of folks who are still learning and you want them to feel welcome in the series and nurture their progress. However, it's probably bad to have at a Nationals competition where you expect everyone to bring their "A Game".

 

Should a car be DQ'd for not having the proper series designation letters? Should a car be DQ'd for having an air deflector 1mm too low? Should a DQ happen because the driver doesn't have the series required patches on their driver suit? I don't know. I left it up to the race director to decide and I discouraged Dave T. from protesting any of what I felt were cosmetic and non-performance enhancing items.

 

Since it consumed much of our conversation during our 13 hour drive home, I know it probably still bothered Dave T. well after the final results were posted that a couple of what I would consider cosmetic items were glossed over when they are clearly covered in black and white in the rules, while DQs were handed out for other items that were also clearly stated in black and white in the rules. So what's the explanation? It's almost funny that the exchange on this forum is very similar in ways to our conversations on the ride home. The difference is that it only took us a few hours to realize we don't have an explanation for why things happened the way they did, while using an Internet forum for communication will probably take several weeks, if not months, to reach the same conclusion.

 

Glenn is right in that a bunch of cussin' and discussin' isn't going to solve any problems or further the series unless it fosters suggestions on ways to improve the series. (I think I'm paraphrasing that correctly.)

 

So here are my suggestions on ways to improve the series, or at least a National CMC event:

 

1. Do not conduct any podium ceremonies until the race results become official. It saved a couple of us from having to launder our driving suits, but it caused a lot of heartache for others. When we are told to head to the podium because the post-race tech is over and X,Y,Z are the official results of the race, we will also know that's when the timer starts for filing protests. It would also avoid confusing media presentation and the need to retake podium photos well after we've all de-suited and commenced the beer drinking. If you look at one of the videos out there now, it shows the original podium finishers in the interview lead-in, but the interview session has different folks sitting behind the microphones.

 

2. If there is any time to be a complete hard-ass about the rules of a series, the National competition is it. If items fall in the "grey area" or implied area of the rules because they are not explicitly stated in black and white, hand out "fix-it" slips. The earlier the better. (ie. Plexiglass side windows) However, if items are in violation of rules clearly printed in black and white, hand out DQs. Yes, even for cosmetic, non-performance enhancing items. Those are important to foster a cohesive and professional appearance in the series. However, make sure those rules that are printed in black and white are clear enough to avoid protest. The dyno numbers and the 18" between strut tower bar and cage attachment points on the firewall are very clearly stated (if not somewhat arbitrarily determined for the latter). Even if you don't like it, they are very clear, there are hard numbers to be shown, and they are therefore completely without question. Examples of items that aren't very clear and we think should be improved are placement and size of the class designator letters on the front and rear of the car and also what exactly "series required patches and NASA patches on their driving suits" means.

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nasa-rm

You have 30 minutes from the time the results are official. Results are never official untill the Class Director calls them Official.

 

Is there a general announcement? A flag raised? a flare shot? text message? sandwich board?

 

For Nationals, results are posted in driver info, not some guy running around with a copy.

 

A provisional copy is posted as quick as possible (usually within 5 minutes of checkered flag). We use a big rubber stamp that says "Provisional".

 

As soon as the race director says they are official, a new copy is printed and posted and stamped "Official". A time is typically written on the sheet showing when released as official to aid competitors in determining that window for protests.

 

For example, check here: http://nasachampionships.com/pdf/2010/Group_A_FFR_CMC_CMC2_National_Champion_Race.pdf

 

Results were official at 1406.

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Glenn
[...it seems the person I was responding to felt as though he had 30 minutes from the drop of the checkered flag. Not so, but rather 30 minutes from the time the results are official.

 

Yes. That's possible.

 

Dave T. was definitely more intent than I was on possibly protesting different noticeable items that were in contradiction to the rules. That's most likely because I tasked him with the job of ensuring our car was legal. He took that job very seriously, and very personally, and spent a considerable amount of time ensuring everything was OK. He also brought up a couple of items to Al well before the main race, just as he should have according to the CCR. Al's vibe was similar to mine in that unless it was an item that improved the performance of the vehicle, it probably wasn't worth filing a protest. I've come to realize that attitude can probably be both good and bad. It's probably good with respect to regional races where we have a range of folks who are still learning and you want them to feel welcome in the series and nurture their progress. However, it's probably bad to have at a Nationals competition where you expect everyone to bring their "A Game".

 

Should a car be DQ'd for not having the proper series designation letters? Should a car be DQ'd for having an air deflector 1mm too low? Should a DQ happen because the driver doesn't have the series required patches on their driver suit? I don't know. I left it up to the race director to decide and I discouraged Dave T. from protesting any of what I felt were cosmetic and non-performance enhancing items.

 

Since it consumed much of our conversation during our 13 hour drive home, I know it probably still bothered Dave T. well after the final results were posted that a couple of what I would consider cosmetic items were glossed over when they are clearly covered in black and white in the rules, while DQs were handed out for other items that were also clearly stated in black and white in the rules. So what's the explanation? It's almost funny that the exchange on this forum is very similar in ways to our conversations on the ride home. The difference is that it only took us a few hours to realize we don't have an explanation for why things happened the way they did, while using an Internet forum for communication will probably take several weeks, if not months, to reach the same conclusion.

 

Glenn is right in that a bunch of cussin' and discussin' isn't going to solve any problems or further the series unless it fosters suggestions on ways to improve the series. (I think I'm paraphrasing that correctly.)

 

So here are my suggestions on ways to improve the series, or at least a National CMC event:

 

1. Do not conduct any podium ceremonies until the race results become official. It saved a couple of us from having to launder our driving suits, but it caused a lot of heartache for others. When we are told to head to the podium because the post-race tech is over and X,Y,Z are the official results of the race, we will also know that's when the timer starts for filing protests. It would also avoid confusing media presentation and the need to retake podium photos well after we've all de-suited and commenced the beer drinking. If you look at one of the videos out there now, it shows the original podium finishers in the interview lead-in, but the interview session has different folks sitting behind the microphones.

 

2. If there is any time to be a complete hard-ass about the rules of a series, the National competition is it. If items fall in the "grey area" or implied area of the rules because they are not explicitly stated in black and white, hand out "fix-it" slips. The earlier the better. (ie. Plexiglass side windows) However, if items are in violation of rules clearly printed in black and white, hand out DQs. Yes, even for cosmetic, non-performance enhancing items. Those are important to foster a cohesive and professional appearance in the series. However, make sure those rules that are printed in black and white are clear enough to avoid protest. The dyno numbers and the 18" between strut tower bar and cage attachment points on the firewall are very clearly stated (if not somewhat arbitrarily determined for the latter). Even if you don't like it, they are very clear, there are hard numbers to be shown, and they are therefore completely without question. Examples of items that aren't very clear and we think should be improved are placement and size of the class designator letters on the front and rear of the car and also what exactly "series required patches and NASA patches on their driving suits" means.

 

I agrre w/ all you said.

As a racer, I too want 100% compliance or get a DQ. I too spend alot of time making sure I read the rules and that my car is legal. Sure it would be nice to spend that time corner weighting the car or fine tuning the alignment and fixing other issues. I also expect everyone else to share that mentality.

 

As a Series Director, I have to have a more of the "middle of the road" POV. I dont always like my own decision but its likely the one that is best for the series at the time.

 

I have already spoke w/ Al about regional enforcement or the lack of and how it causes unintended issues. We will all be stepping up regional rules compliance going forward. I also think there will be lots of heads up notifications prior to Nats 2011 that more DQ's will likely be handed out. Bring a legal car.

 

 

Great post and I like the way this going - constructive.

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nasa-rm

Not that it matters, but now that I have the car home and measured...

 

18 to 18.5" on the drivers side between the footwell tube and strut brace. About 16" on the passenger side. Not the 12" that I was told was measured.

 

If we keep this rule (which I will lobby we don't keep it at 18") at least I only have to cut one bar to relocate.

 

Pictures to follow after I get it up on the lift.....

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Glenn
Not that it matters, but now that I have the car home and measured...

 

18 to 18.5" on the drivers side between the footwell tube and strut brace. About 16" on the passenger side. Not the 12" that I was told was measured.

 

If we keep this rule (which I will lobby we don't keep it at 18") at least I only have to cut one bar to relocate.

 

Pictures to follow after I get it up on the lift.....

 

I'll back you up on modifing the rule. Thie rule completely prevents me from adding the 7/8 bars which are CMC legal and the strut to firwall bars which are also legal due to the lack of realestate to land them on.

Right now its an either or senario.

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Al F.

Good to see discussion going in a direction other than a showdown at dawn. Or is it typically at noon? I'm not a Texan yet, I should know these things...

 

Interesting Dave...Blaine was pretty solid in his methodology but bring on the facts!!

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nasa-rm
Good to see discussion going in a direction other than a showdown at dawn. Or is it typically at noon? I'm not a Texan yet, I should know these things...

 

Interesting Dave...Blaine was pretty solid in his methodology but bring on the facts!!

 

Pictures should help. Ambiguity is part of the problem.

 

Where is it measured from? Middle of the tubes or from the edge of the plate? My measurements are from the middle of the tube as structurally, this is where the main loads are transferred. Per the CCR, roll cage "attachment" points are at the tube. Center of tube or outside wall? Don't know as there has been no prior need to measure the X,Y,Z of a cage mounting point.

 

How do you accurately measure the location of a tube that mounts inside the car vs a strut tower brace mounted on a different plane in the engine compartment. Add in the fact that you can tell where the cage tube mounts inside by looking at the welds from inside the wheel well. Of course the wheel well is a separate "compartment" from the engine compartment so it's not like you can just lay a tape measure across.

 

Is that 18" measured in a X, Y distance or can it include the Z direction.

 

 

That's why I depending on how I do it, I get more a 1" variation on the driver's side. I could be bending the tape measure around the MC or other components and it could really be 17". Other than using some sort of million $$ locating robotic arm with a 3D measuring system, you can accurately measure the spec.

 

Regardless of measurement, I'm pretty sure the passenger side is about 15"-16". So it's clearly non-compliant, not even close. No argument there.

 

 

 

For 2010, the regional CMC directors should evaluate why this particular rule is needed, what the reasonable limit should be and how to easily verify that limit. Note I did not say measure as it's possible to word the rule clearly with no actual number to measure. I think we have many more non-compliant cars out there than just mine.... I am just the first to be DQ'ed for it.

 

By the way, my hood was off, no heat soak, no ECU clearout, but I wasn't in the car "as it was raced". Maybe the tubes relaxed and slipped?

Edited by Guest

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mitchntx1548534714

I thought I was going to have to seperate them and send them to neutral corners a few times while they were building my cage.

 

They are brothers from different mothers for sure.

 

Its only because he is such an ass, some times.

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Glenn
Edited by Guest

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