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Help with Mustang track car / future CMC build


Hampton

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Anything in particular I should look for in Mustang (95 or newer) that would be used for track days in 2011 and then buid it for CMC for the 2012 season?

 

Thanks

 

Greg

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Boils down to preferance.

 

I'd opt for a 99+ GT, they are attainable for under $5K. That would be a great starting platform. Other than that a SN95 GT/Cobra is an option too. The older 2V modulars are a little shy on the HP #s, but that can be fixed. I do prefer the pushrod motors, but the mod motors can perform too.

 

Is your plan to drive the car on the street? I'd see about getting a track ready car if you can. I've built 2 now and looking back, I think I'd opt for a turnkey car now.

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Hi Rich,

 

Wasn't planning on driving it on the street. Just sticking it in my trailer, hauling to the track and running NASA Midwest HPDE's next year then go from there. I figured I'd chip away on some improvements to it over the year.

 

What changes or components do typical track cars have that make them not street legal and/or not desireble for the street?

 

btw: Thanks for the information on the 99+ GT.

 

Greg

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Hi Rich,

 

Wasn't planning on driving it on the street. Just sticking it in my trailer, hauling to the track and running NASA Midwest HPDE's next year then go from there. I figured I'd chip away on some improvements to it over the year.

 

What changes or components do typical track cars have that make them not street legal and/or not desireble for the street?

 

Thanks

 

Greg

 

Track cars? nothing. Full tilt racercars? Lots.

No HVAC, windows, smog stuff just to get the list started.

But there have been folks who have driver thier CMC cars to the track (100% street legal) and raced all weekend and drove home. We even have a AI car here that has done it a few times.

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Well, I won't be building it for CMC for quite some time, but I just want to ensure what I do buy and what I'll use for HPDE's and maybe TT's would be a good candidate for CMC when I'm ready.

 

I take it the 99+ GT 4.6L V8 would be a good candidate ?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Greg

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Welcome aboard Greg!! Dont hesitate to ask as many questions as you want or to pick up the phone and call any of us on the last page

 

Lap time wise there wont be any difference between any of the cars, but there are differences that might matter between the 94-95 5.0 cars and the 96+ 4.6 cars.

 

99+ has different heads and pistons than the earlier 4.6 cars, and make more power. Yes you can get there with the 96-98, and the car will probably be cheaper to buy, but its more work. What's your preference?

 

The 5.0 cars in general are going to be cheaper to both buy and maintain due to the huge volume of 5.0 engines that were made. The 4.6 2v engine is just nowhere near as popular nor was it made in the same numbers.

 

The 5.0 cars come with a T5 trans which is cheap, light, and easier to get a good 5th gear for. The 4.6 cars come with a T45 that is heavier and complete crap for 5th gear, but it is much more durable than the T5. If your area tracks dont require the use of 5th that could sway things towards the 4.6 car.

 

Anyway...lots of subtle differences that may or may not matter to any given person.

 

You should check out Dave Balingit's mustang for sale in our for sale section right now! That's a hell of a good deal!

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Greg,

 

Welcome to the Midwest Region. Most of the guys in CMC here are in Firebirds but there are a couple Mustangs around. The 2010 CMC1 National Champion's Mustang is for sale in the Ohio area. I'm sure Anders would make you a great deal on his car. If Matt King reads this I'm sure he could help with Mustang info also.

 

PM me your email address and we'll get you on our mailing list.

 

Sidney Franklin

Bloomington, IL

'89 Firebird

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Lap time wise there wont be any difference between any of the cars, but there are differences that might matter between the 94-95 5.0 cars and the 96+ 4.6 cars.

 

Al is crazy, don't listen to him.

The 79-04 Mustangs are "virtually" the same car but there are quite a few differences between them. Track width, aerodynamics, sway bars, weight distribution, etc.

I would definitely go with the 99+ if I were starting from scratch!!

At an event earlier this year I drove a competitors 2000 Mustang for 6 laps and got within .7 seconds of the track record that I hold in my 89 Mustang. I had never driven his car before and was short-shifting by about 400 RPM but it felt WAY more stable and predictable!!!

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Hey guys,

 

Thanks for the "welcome" and all the replies / info.

 

Guess I should tell ya why I'm not buying a race ready car and am focusing on a good candidate.

 

From Des Moines. old (er) guy. New to racing. Learned about this legal adrenalin a year go. Better late than never. Was going to start in SM because of the "low cost" and was getting close to finishing a build with the intent of drivers / comp school next spring. Long story, but lets just say after a lot of time and money it was discovered I shouldnt continue with that tub. So back to square one.

 

I'm a V8 fan at heart and it wasn't a week after I'd bought this miata donor that I told the wife that I could see us eventually in a Mustang.

 

I've researched all my options since I learned my miata tub was toast and here I am. I'm actually glad things went down the way they did cuz I'm now headed where I belong. Should have stuck with the gut from the get go but live and learn.

 

The budget has obviously been dented, and won't be able to race next year, but I want to be on the track as much as possible in 2011 and preferrably in a V8 that I'll eventually build. I'd already bought a truck and enclosed trailer and was ready to roll. So, I'll be parting out the Miata and buying a Mustang early Jan and planning on doing most of the HPDE's in the Midwest region and whatever else I can squeeze in. If all goes well, I'll be able to build it next winter (mabye chip away some next summer) and be ready to race spring 2012.

 

So I won't be buying until early Jan (only a month and half away), but I want to learn, research and shop right now so I have a clue when I pull the trigger.

 

oh.. and I've got a lot of brand new / never used NA Miata stuff for sale (including wheels, tires, susp package, susp parts, etc) if you know anyone looking. I'll be posting it all on a few sites, but just a heads up.

 

Thanks again for the help. Any other suggestions on a year, make, model and engine are welcome.

 

Looking forward to this.

 

Greg

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You'll unload the Miata stuff quick. Make a few bucks for the Mustang.

 

The only thing I'd steer clear of in a car driven on the street is a cage. Without a helmet you could suffer some real injuries in a street accident, even at relatively low speed. The suspension may be a little harsh for the street, race pads are not desirable on the street, but all the other stuff you can live with.

 

I started building a Spec E30, I knew I would eventualy wind up in a V8 or some sorts. It didn't help that I was the only E30 in the region when I got my comp license, so that put my Mustang on 'turbo build' and here I am. One thing about starting with an early fox, lime Mike stated, the 79-04 stuff is relatively the same. A lot of parts bolt together, but starting with a 99+ already give you parts that the older chassis guys are upgrading to. And, you dont have the headaches of sorting out a frankenstein of parts to work together. It took me about 2 seasons to sort out #71, I think 2011 will be the 1st year I can focus on the podium.

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Rich: Thanks again. It sounds like I can't go wrong with a 99. Good to know.

 

Dave: Yep, Hallett and Hastings are within range. Hadn't looked and didn't know those were in your region. Cool. I'm also only 6 from Brainerd, 5 from Blackhawk and 4 !/2 from Autobahn. Only about 7 from Gingerman, Putnam and RA also. So.. again.. cool!

 

So am do I understanding correctly that every single race weekend regardless of the region, there is an HPDE, TT and comp?

 

Greg

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It boils down to the engine preference. Personally, I'd go with a hybrid: find a 99+ V6 stick shift car since that will be dirt cheap compared to a GT, then stick a 5.0 and a T5 in it since that will also be dirt cheap compared to a 4.6.

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Gerg, Welcome.

If you can get a car already built, that will take you a long ways to getting ready to race. Also for the reason stated above that is why I picked the 94/95 GT. It will also help keep the cost down. Look back to some of the other post and it shows the build. Take a look at this and it was a big reason why I pick my car.

 

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/projectcars/mmfp_0901_1995_mustang_gt_project_cmc_part_1/index.html

 

Good luck.

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It boils down to the engine preference. Personally, I'd go with a hybrid: find a 99+ V6 stick shift car since that will be dirt cheap compared to a GT, then stick a 5.0 and a T5 in it since that will also be dirt cheap compared to a 4.6.

 

...and upgrade the brakes...

...and change all the electrical...

...and upgrade the rear axle...

 

Not having to do some of those items may make a GT more attractive to start with despite the possible price advantage of a V6 car.

 

Also, I seem to recall several discussions surrounding the substitution of engines into platforms where they did not originally appear from the factory and how such substitutions were forbidden. I see this as a potential discrepancy and an area where some confusion can arise between the list of eligible manufacturers/models in Section 5, the classification table in Section 6, and the specifically allowed CMC1 modifications in Section 7. I know I'm confused about it.

 

In section 5 it has the following listed:

1979-95 Ford Mustang 5.0 V8 including 1993-1995 Cobra (1993 and 1995 Cobra R models excluded)

1996-2004 Ford Mustang 4.6 SOHC V8

1996-04 Ford Mustang 4.6 DOHC N/A V8*(2000 Cobra R and 2003-2004 Cobra models excluded; 4.6 DOHC may run CMC2 only)

That looks to me like the '96-'04 cars need to retain the 4.6L SOHC engines while the '79-'95 cars need to keep the 5.0L pushrod engines.

 

However in section 6 it lists the following:

Chassis/Body Engine

Ford

Early Ford through 1993 5.0

Early Ford 1994-2004 5.0 and 2V 4.6

I am not sure if that section is meant to state both the 5.0L and the 4.6L engines will be found in the SN95 chassis cars between '94-'04 (limiting the 5.0L to the '94-'95 cars and the 4.6L to the '96-'04 cars using Section 5 as a reference), or if that implies the ability to update/backdate the 5.0L and the 4.6L freely into ANY SN95 chassis between '94-'04.

 

Then looking at Section 7 for specifically allowed CMC1 modifications:

7.11.1 Any 4.6 2V Ford, 5.0,(302 Ford or 305 GM), 5.7 liter LT1 GM V8 production engine, in OEM stock configuration unless otherwise stated in these rules, that was originally offered in an eligible model car is legal. Cobra R model engines (Ford) and LT4 (GM/Chevrolet) engines or engine components are prohibited.

That seems to me to solidify the position of keeping the 5.0L in the '79-'95 cars and the 4.6L in the '96-'04 cars when referring back to the list of eligible models in section 5.

 

Is that not the case?

 

Yes, I know the SN95 chassis was produced form '94-'04 and during that time it had both the 5.0L and the 4.6L put into it, so it's not the same as animal as putting a 4.6L SOHC engine into a fox or a 5.0L pushrod engine into an S197, but I think there is a clarification that needs to me made.

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Greg,

You are in the right place, CMC is a great class. As you may have gathered from the comments my neighbor (and still friend) Anders got into racing with my help and in 3 short years is CMC champion. I would like to take some of the credit for that but I can't. He is a quick study!

 

He is looking at an s197 build for CMC2 so his CMC '95 5.0 Mustang is for sale (kind of). I dont think he has it on the web yet.

 

Feel free to contact me and I will get you to him.

 

Robin Burnett

586-246-3287

north of Detroit

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Scott...yeah its a little convoluted sometimes...the update/backdate rule allows the later sn95 cars to update(?) to the older 5.0.

 

In other words, Fords can basically do whatever they want. Gm is pigeon-holed and under a microscope.

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Scott...yeah its a little convoluted sometimes...the update/backdate rule allows the later sn95 cars to update(?) to the older 5.0.

 

In other words, Fords can basically do whatever they want. Gm is pigeon-holed and under a microscope.

 

 

Sounds perfect to me.

 

JJ

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Well heck.

 

If you can backdate any of the SN95 series like that (which I personally don't agree with), get a high mile 2004 V6 manual transmission car. Drive it like it was stolen for a year as a stock V6 car to and from the track with street tires and dual purpose brake pads with the comfort of AC and an interior as you work through the HPDE ranks. That'll get you used to all of the chassis dynamics of the Mustang and seat time driving it as a momentum car while your are acquirng all of the parts needed to build it into a full blown CMC2 car. That will also give you plenty of time to look over and talk over all of the other elements of other cars like cage design and chassis theory with the other drivers.

 

Then in the off season between the 2011 and 2012 racing seasons, take all the parts you've accumulated, swap in a 302/T5/8.8, add some big brakes, and a Cobra hood and front bumper cover with brake cooling ducts along with stirpping the inteiror and adding all the safety stuff, and get your comp license in 2012 and go racing.

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