WrencheadRacing84 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) im going to do paint soon so i need a solid yes or no thanks Edited July 1, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrencheadRacing84 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 side view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If it's the factory '79 Pace Car/'80 Cobra/'82 GT/'83-'86 Capri RS front bumper cover, then YES without question. This is a factory unit. However, it looks to me like it is the very, very similar aftermarket one piece unit from Xenon. Like this one. If that's the case, I think you are still good, but you need to check with your Regional and National Directors to make sure. My feeling is that it meets the requirements of #1 and #2 in the air dam rules, which I interpret as pertaining to any aftermarket or home made air dam. But the rule isn't clear if it needs to meet one of the three, both 1 & 2 or 3, or all 3 of the requirements. I'm interested in hearing the final ruling. 7.5.2 A front air dam may be used provided it meets the following requirements: 1. Air dams must fit securely to the body with minimum modifications to the original bumper cover. 2. Air dams must only extend downward from the original bumper cover, with no horizontal sections, and may not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed from above. 3. Early Ford (pre-2005) may use the following aftermarket front air dams which were available from the OEM: Saleen or Roush (Mustang only) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrencheadRacing84 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 If it's the factory '79 Pace Car/'80 Cobra/'82 GT/'83-'86 Capri RS front bumper cover, then YES without question.This is a factory unit. However, it looks to me like it is the very, very similar aftermarket one piece unit from Xenon. Like this one. its this one If that's the case, I think you are still good, but you need to check with your Regional and National Directors to make sure. My feeling is that it meets the requirements of #1 and #2 in the air dam rules, which I interpret as pertaining to any aftermarket or home made air dam. But the rule isn't clear if it needs to meet one of the three, both 1 & 2 or 3, or all 3 of the requirements. I'm interested in hearing the final ruling. my thought exactly. 7.5.2 A front air dam may be used provided it meets the following requirements: 1. Air dams must fit securely to the body with minimum modifications to the original bumper cover. 2. Air dams must only extend downward from the original bumper cover, with no horizontal sections, and may not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed from above. 3. Early Ford (pre-2005) may use the following aftermarket front air dams which were available from the OEM: Saleen or Roush (Mustang only) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If it's the factory '79 Pace Car/'80 Cobra/'82 GT/'83-'86 Capri RS front bumper cover, then YES without question.This is a factory unit. However, it looks to me like it is the very, very similar aftermarket one piece unit from Xenon. Like this one. If that's the case, I think you are still good, but you need to check with your Regional and National Directors to make sure. My feeling is that it meets the requirements of #1 and #2 in the air dam rules, which I interpret as pertaining to any aftermarket or home made air dam. But the rule isn't clear if it needs to meet one of the three, both 1 & 2 or 3, or all 3 of the requirements. I'm interested in hearing the final ruling. 7.5.2 A front air dam may be used provided it meets the following requirements: 1. Air dams must fit securely to the body with minimum modifications to the original bumper cover. 2. Air dams must only extend downward from the original bumper cover, with no horizontal sections, and may not protrude beyond the overall outline of the body when viewed from above. 3. Early Ford (pre-2005) may use the following aftermarket front air dams which were available from the OEM: Saleen or Roush (Mustang only) It must conform to all 3 parts of the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrencheadRacing84 Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) ok thanks Edited July 2, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrencheadRacing84 Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 ok thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It must conform to all 3 parts of the rule. Thanks Glenn. So, to be perfectly clear... The need to conform to all three parts of the rule will exclude all manner and form of aftermarket (except the specified Saleen and Roush brands for Mustangs) and home-made air dams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 It must conform to all 3 parts of the rule. Thanks Glenn. So, to be perfectly clear... The need to conform to all three parts of the rule will exclude all manner and form of aftermarket (except the specified Saleen and Roush brands for Mustangs) and home-made air dams. I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I don't see how you came to that conclusion. I concluded that since the aftermarket bumper cover in question meets the first two items of the rule, but does not meet the third requiement of being an actual Roush or Saleen product. So, even if I made my own air dam that also met the first two requirements, it too would still not meet the third requirement and would be excluded from use. What am I missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 OK - I see. #3 is and added allowance, and not a design limitation. It must conform to #'s 1&2 and #3 is an added allowance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Email sent to the Directors for 2012 clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 So going back to the original question... The Xenon brand aftermarket front air dam shown above would be allowed, as would any other aftermarket or home made air dam that meets the first two requirements, in addition to specifically including any of the Saleen and Roush units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Don't confuse the airdam w/ the bumper cover. In the above pic, all I see is a bumper cover that appears to be non-OEM. If that is the case, it is not legal, even if the addition of an airdam to a OEM bumper cover results in the same finished product as the one pictured above. Does that clear some of this up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I'm glad we're gettig this cleared up. I'm sorry Glenn. I've been speaking Mustang-speak with fellow Mustang drivers so much recently, that I didn't realize I was approaching this from such a Mustang specific viewpoint. Now that I've got both my CMC and Mustang specific portions of my brain centers engaged... I still think there is room for clarification. I think we may have inadvertently included the #3 item as an allowance for an "air dam" based on Mustang specific wording when maybe we need to make a distinction between an "air dam" that is actually an "air deflector" located beneath the lower radiator support intended to assist in airflow through the radiator and an "air dam" which is actually a portion of the lower "bumper cover". For now I'll stick to the above example since the SN95s offer additional choices than the foxes. In the Mustang world, what is pictured above is an '83-'84 Mustang nose with a Xenon brand aftermarket version of what is known as the '79 Pace Car/'80 Cobra/'82 GT/'83-'86 Capri RS/5.0 Air Dam. That is the piece that is attached to the bumper cover just below the trim that wraps all the way around the car. An air deflector, which is a different piece entirely, is the part that attaches to and extends below the lower radiator support. The following picture is of both an early and a later fox Saleen Air Dam that attaches very similarly to what is pictured above and are both similar, but of a slightly different style than the one initially shown in this thread. The following is a picture of an '87-'93 Air Deflector that attaches to the lower radiator support to aid in cooling. I believe those Saleen Air Dams are specifically what the #3 allowance in the rules on air dams is referring to and not to the air deflector since there was really no specific corresponding piece from Saleen or Roush. However, what I gather from your interpretation of the rules is what I'm referring to as a Saleen Air Dam, you are referring to as a bumper cover, which would not be legal as to how the CMC rules are currently written. I guess this is where we need additional clarification from other folks as to what constitutes and air dam vs. a bumper cover vs. an air deflector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 An air dam has been defined among the directors to ensure consistent enforcement. An air dam is something added to the front of the nose. A radiator air deflector is something designed to deflect air to the radiator. All directors approach the rules w/ this terminology POV. It is a recent clarification and has resolved a huge amount of mis-understanding commonly seen in the past. I agree w/ your perspective of item #3 in the rules. As I said, I sent an email to the Directors asking for us to take a look at it (and this thread as well). As for your example..... for CMC, I consider those "lower half's" part of what is referred to as the "bumper cover" and not an "air dam". I understand this is likely what the Ford crowd calls them (air dams). If the OEM bumper cover needs to be cut off at the trim line to add the lower half, its not legal since it violates part 1 of the rule. If this is the case (cutting required) and you remove the lower half of the bumper cover and add a new lower half, it is all still the bumper cover. If it is a Roush or Saleen part, then the rules allow it, but I'm not sure why. None of the other platforms get such an allocation (likely since they were installed on cars sold from the dealers lot). I also do not have any first hand experience w/ those items and what they are. Never seen an example of one here or at Nationals. I likely wouldn't know it if I had w/ all the different legal OEM versions. It is possible that the Roush and Saleen items will be illegal as of 2012 (as well as the Corba R stuff). There is a list of legal bumper covers being approved as we speak for the 2012 rules, and I don't recall seeing those 2 on the list (I put together the list w/ the help of other Directors). The list is made up of Ford/GM OEM bumper covers - no limited this, special that, tuner speedshop this, bla bla bla..... The short of it is, if a car is not listed on the approved models list, it is highly likely that a part specifically from that car is not legal either. Since I have never seen Roush or Saleen on the list, cars w/ those "titles" will not be allowed. If the car only has a body kit as the parts that make it different from a "approved car", remove the body kit. It really is that simple. It will no longer be a Roush/Saleen (or whoever) car then. My advice to the original poster...... buy a cheap OEM replacement for a Fox and be done w/ it. If the part in question has any value, sell it for the money to buy a legal part, or trade it for one. Do it now before you paint the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Interesting. I can think of several folks who are going to be affected if/when this proposed rule change to get rid of specialty manufacturer body components goes into effect. Will this same line of strictly OEM Ford/GM thinking be carried on to the back end of the car to get rid of all the different versions of non-stock wings and spoilers? The car our 2010 CMC National Champion drove had the complete SN95 Saleen bumper cover. I'm not 100% sure about the Xenon unit, but the early Saleen unit is added onto the original bumper cover that remains intact underneath it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 There was a strong push to completely get rid of rear wings (airfoils). The compromise was to work the front of the cars since we were seeing number of folks dump the OEM bumper cover on the car that has zero issues and switch to a version that came from a non-legal platform for the purpose of gaining an aero advantage. We felt that needed to be stopped. There shouldn't be a "must have" body part. It is even less desireable when those parts are limited production items, expensive, or just hard to find. By working the front of the car (limiting aero and downforce) we hope to see the rear wings go away on their own. Time will tell. For the most part everyone wanted wings gone. Not everyone, but close. Spoilers are here to stay. They do help and provide the needed downforce to help balance a car for low and high speed conditions. A wing (my opinion) is useless in CMC. It is capable of making way more downforce than you can use (since you cannot make enough downforce in the frontto need a wing) and the penalty for carring it around is massive drag even w/ the wing at the minimum downforce set-up. If you need a wing to balance a car, you have set-up issues and the wing is a band-aid fix. Before you act on the info I have posted here, wait for the tech buliten or 2012 rules to be posted. If you can't, work w/ your Regional Director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks Glenn for keeping us abreast of the process. That's exactly the kind of explanation and exchange of information I think we need more of in order to minimize the pain of any series evolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks Glenn for keeping us abreast of the process. That's exactly the kind of explanation and exchange of information I think we need more of in order to minimize the pain of any series evolution. I wish all Directors shared your opinion. The fact of the matter is, I'll likely be "in trouble" once one of the others Directors see's this or one of their "look-outs" reports it to them. My position has always been that I represent the racer but I must keep CMC's interest a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I agree with you Scott and didn't say it because Glenn and I are good friends ... fight like brothers, but good friends none-the-less. It boggles my mind how directors can work through a rules making process, post the rules change without any back ground information and then get all pissy when questioned about it. Common responses are "It is what it is", "Read the Rules" and/or "You don't get it". How pias and patronizing ... In this case, the back story is known and racers can better understand, not only the written rule, but understand the rules massaging process. Unfortunately, its all about control and power for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlingle Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) It sounds like wings wings are going to be made illegal but not spoilers?I have neither but I dont see how wings that came on the car can be made illegal but spoilers can be added. I dont see where the wing hate comes from when the home made or circle track spoilers look far less "stock" in the variations that I have seen on the track here in the Texas region. While the Roush and Saleen wings and bumpers may not be liked, they were offered from the dealership. Joe Meyers Ford here in Houston has about 7-15 Roush cars on their lot at any given time. On a related note, i just finished putting on a Mach 1 chin spoiler today after seeing that it was deemed legal on here way back when, called Marshall to talk about something else and found out now they may be illegal in a couple of weeks (before I ever get it out on track) I had had it in my possession for too long to return it too. shit. Well, at least Marshall warned me not to buy the Saleen bumper cover I had been considering, so I guess that helps a little in the wasted money department. (EDIT: Just found out from Marshall that the chin spoiler is good to go for now so I will get it on track at least once or twice before possibly having to scrap it.) Edited July 6, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 The wings I spoke of above are not the OEM type. And wings (non-OEM airfoils) are not on the table to be made illegal. It was asked for, but it did not happen. And keep in mind, pretty much the vast majority of those folks who have them, would be glad to get rid of them if made illegal. The main reason the wings are disliked is for appearance reasons. We want CMC car to look very much differnt from AI cars. at this point the lack of a splitter is all that is missing. We have the brakes, wheels and wings. It can be a little un-clear to any novice spectator as to who is racing who out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted July 6, 2011 Members Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Good catch guys, current reading of 7.5.2 is your air dam (something added to the bumper cover) must comply with 7.5.2 sub 1 and sub 2. IF you have an early Ford you can as an alternative use Saleen and Roush front end pieces which effectively replace the OE bumper cover and serve as an air dam. Note this is being changed for 2012 as described in another post. Edited July 6, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 Unfortunately, its all about control and power for the most part. Mitch - that is the furthest thing from the truth. One day, when you grow up, you might have a better understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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