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S197 and the "unfair advantage"


CF03GT

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Mitch came close to explaining (a bit tongue-in-cheek) what is difficult for some to fully grasp.

 

I could never measure up to ... I mean down to ... I mean meet Adam's expectations.

 

 

I'm gonna need some 40 weight ball bearings and some gauze pads.

 

Hampton

2011 FNG

98 Mustang #36

 

Unless they are clearly marked and bolted in, forward of the main hoop, those are illegal. And clearly securing them in gauze is not acceptable.

 

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Wow...quite the thread. I was bored so I just read through all of it. If you'll have it, let me offer my opinion as a relative outsider, albeit one who's watched the CMC class for the last few years (if only in the RM region). This is my opinion only...I haven't even driven any of these cars...just basing this off lots of reading and educated guesses.

 

WOW, Dillon You took this thread from a victorious chant of "THIS IS CMC" and lead it right back down the rabbit hole.....

 

 

When you allow a car into a spec class that's potentially 20+ years newer than other cars in the field, you no longer have a spec class. You can't allow newer (and much better designed) technology into a spec class, and expect it to NOT be a ringer.

 

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think CMC is a Spec class.

I am under the impression it is a class where similar cars are allowed and not allowed to perform certain modifications to acheive parity across platforms.

Maybe it's just semantics. Very important semantics!

I see a Spec class as a group where every car has the same parts, and therfore, the same theoretical performance.

We have to have some performance advantages and disadvantages, or else us smart people would not be able to make fun of Chevy drivers.

 

 

I disagree completely with the thought of the S197 not allowed in CMC. I wish the 5th gen Camaro and the Challenger we out there too.

So what if the technology is 20 years newer. I do not want to see this series turn into a vintage class. What I want to see, is how to effectively create parity among the new cars. And we can't do that by "dumbing" down the S197. And perhaps more modifications could be allowed to the 20 year old cars to get them up to snuff. Until NASA has a million dollars given to CMC for research and development, we are just going to have to do the best we can with what we already have. And I think the directors and the racers have been doing a good job.

 

I think the rules need to be written as best they can. Don't scare anyone away from coming out and racing. Don't worry to much, be flexible with a new platform integration. AND then after a year or so it will all work out.

 

I know I'm happy showing up to the race with my Fox. At the end of the day, I've had fun,...

 

THIS IS CMC.

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I disagree completely with the thought of the S197 not allowed in CMC. I wish the 5th gen Camaro and the Challenger we out there too.

So what if the technology is 20 years newer. I do not want to see this series turn into a vintage class. What I want to see, is how to effectively create parity among the new cars. And we can't do that by "dumbing" down the S197. And perhaps more modifications could be allowed to the 20 year old cars to get them up to snuff. Until NASA has a million dollars given to CMC for research and development, we are just going to have to do the best we can with what we already have. And I think the directors and the racers have been doing a good job.

 

I think the rules need to be written as best they can. Don't scare anyone away from coming out and racing. Don't worry to much, be flexible with a new platform integration. AND then after a year or so it will all work out.

 

I know I'm happy showing up to the race with my Fox. At the end of the day, I've had fun,...

 

THIS IS CMC.

 

WELL SAID! I couldn't agree more that we shouldn't try to discourage new vehicles from coming in and keeping the series fresh. NASA is doing a good job keeping parity and I am sure they will find a way to do the same with the new cars. And as the new cars trickle in it will bring even more people to our series.

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It will become increasingly difficult to allow modern cars in CMC and still be CMC. The new cars make way more power, and forcing the older cars to just keep adding parts to keep up increases cost.

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Can they not use restrictor plates on the newer cars like they do on the Camaros? Between that and weight penalties I think you would be able to even it out pretty good.

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I'm not a CMCer but have thought about it lately with all the crap in AI.You have to allow the new platforms in or you will end up with 2 class again and I know nobody wants to go there again.Penities will have to be accessed to all the new platforms coming one way or the other or advantages giving to the older models or the class will die.Look at all the v6 models with the same hp as the v8's.Are you not going to allow them also.There are alot of changes coming for both AI and CMC,if you don't change with the times it will die as history has taught us.God only knows what the problems will be in 5 years that will have to be decided on,but I can guarantee this eveually we will run out of fox bodys and 3rd gens to make racecars out of.

 

Robert

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It will become increasingly difficult to allow modern cars in CMC and still be CMC. The new cars make way more power, and forcing the older cars to just keep adding parts to keep up increases cost.

 

Rob and I had this conversation yesterday and this was the list I sent him that Bob (or any of the Midwest 3rd gens) could make to keep up with the new Mustangs or as Rob put it, "Turn a 3rd gen into a 4th gen". (Obviously some of the parts are legal in CMC1...we've just been too tight to spend the money.)

 

Brakes - 13 inch rotors and 4 piston calipers such as Wilwood. I believe they are an advantage as does anyone that made the switch. If nothing else it saves in pad costs $2,000

Pads - Run something much better than Hawk Blues. I think the DTC70's are better than Blues as they are a much newer but more expensive compound. $250

Shocks - Good race shocks like AST's. These aren't cheap like off the shelf Koni's but they are proven. Fast guys run good rears especially. $1,500

Diff - These are wear items that need to be serviced regularly. None of us do. $500

Wheels - Needs 17's to fit over the 13 inch rotors. Run the Z06's like Tim. Front will need expensive spacers, rear will need a 4th gen axle swap. $2,000

Tires - Why not run 275's? Debate over unsprung weight but fast guys regardless of class or series run the biggest tire available...even TJ. $1,000

Rear Axle - Needs a 4th gen for the extra width to work with stock rear wheels. $500

Trans Am Front Fascia - Improved Aero over the Formula ones we use. It's allowed in the rules...why not use it. With the removal of front air dams, need better front fascia. $250

Total for parts and not including labor. $8,000

 

Maybe keeping CMC1 isn't such a bad idea after all. Or merge with AI and call it AI1, AI2, AI3, AI4 like Honda Challenge/GTS.

 

Sidney

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WOW, Dillon You took this thread from a victorious chant of "THIS IS CMC" and lead it right back down the rabbit hole.....

I seem to be pretty good at that sort of thing I overreacted anyway though. We obviously don't have any S197s in the RM region, so I hadn't realized this was so much of a problem until I saw this thread. But I'm sure it'll all be figured out.

 

I do see CMC as a spec class personally...it's just a different type of spec class, that is, it's spec across different chassis. If that makes it not a spec class then my mistake...it is just semantics anyway. But it's true that it's not touted as a spec class, so I guess it isn't one, hah. Even in one-make spec classes though, at a club racing level, there's a lot of difference between what parts each car has. Us cake eaters are faced with a similar situation right now believe it or not. When you've got people building $20,000 944s for what's touted as a low cost, equal class...that's a problem. Same thing with the S197, IMO.

 

I'll shut my trap now and let those who actually deserve to have some say hammer things out Seems we won't know anything until the new rules are released anyway.

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If Bob did the upgrades Sidney and Rob put togeather, I don't think I could keep up with him (I have a hard time today). Even worse if we penalize the S197. The only thing I know that I can do is try to find 150lbs to loose (not 300).

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Sid occasonally gets things mixed up in his head, so I fixed some of the info for him. Anybody interested post me privately and I 'll let you know where I got stuff....

 

It will become increasingly difficult to allow modern cars in CMC and still be CMC. The new cars make way more power, and forcing the older cars to just keep adding parts to keep up increases cost.

 

Rob and I had this conversation yesterday and this was the list I sent him that Bob (or any of the Midwest 3rd gens) could make to keep up with the new Mustangs or as Rob put it, "Turn a 3rd gen into a 4th gen". (Obviously some of the parts are legal in CMC1...we've just been too tight to spend the money.) This is probably the biggest point. Race cars wear out. When you back out the "gotta replace anyway because it's worn out" from the "gotta have to compete", the actual upgrade cost goes down considerably.

Brakes - 13 inch rotors and 4 piston calipers such as Wilwood. I believe they are an advantage as does anyone that made the switch. If nothing else it saves in pad costs $2,000 $780 with the rotors and a set of pads

Pads - Run something much better than Hawk Blues. I think the DTC70's are better than Blues as they are a much newer but more expensive compound. $250 $185. I was getting them for $158, but they took down the site

Shocks - Good race shocks like AST's. These aren't cheap like off the shelf Koni's but they are proven. Fast guys run good rears especially. $1,500 Yep, better shocks are better, reguardless of what you're running. But, not sure this should be on a "generation update" list

Diff - These are wear items that need to be serviced regularly. None of us do. $500 $0 Nope...I took out my new Auburn and went back to a stock diff. Not saying an old worn out pos diff doesn't need to be replaced, just saying $650 for a new Auburn or 2k for a 9" isn't nessacary

Wheels - Needs 17's to fit over the 13 inch rotors. Run the Z06's like Tim. Front will need expensive spacers, rear will need a 4th gen axle swap. $2,000 $0 as some 16" wheels fit just fine. I have to file off about .050 off the wing of the pad plate...takes about 2 minutes

Tires - Why not run 275's? Debate over unsprung weight but fast guys regardless of class or series run the biggest tire available...even TJ. $1,000 $0...see above note on 16" wheels

Rear Axle - Needs a 4th gen for the extra width to work with stock rear wheels. $500 Not sure...let's see the new track width rules

Trans Am Front Fascia - Improved Aero over the Formula ones we use. It's allowed in the rules...why not use it. With the removal of front air dams, need better front fascia. $250 Maybe. I chased what areo I could and I think it did work a little. But moot point as it's coming off this winter

Total for parts and not including labor. $8,000 Not sure the real total, as some of the items above are wear items that get replaced reguardless. My "upgrade" last winter was about $950 not including the switch to 17" rims....which I discovered after the fact that I didnt' need to do, and about $2,800 if you include the rims

Maybe keeping CMC1 isn't such a bad idea after all. Or merge with AI and call is AI1, AI2, AI3, AI4 like Honda Challenge/GTS.

 

Sidney

 

The point isn't to bash Sidney (as much as I like that particular sport)....just setting the record straight on costs. And I, for one, am glad we're back together as one big, happy family.....Well, except for when Momy and Daddy fight (when is Adam back from "vacation"??), and, I'm not sure about that Chris guy....

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Sid occasonally gets things mixed up in his head, so I fixed some of the info for him. Anybody interested post me privately and I 'll let you know where I got stuff....

 

It will become increasingly difficult to allow modern cars in CMC and still be CMC. The new cars make way more power, and forcing the older cars to just keep adding parts to keep up increases cost.

 

Rob and I had this conversation yesterday and this was the list I sent him that Bob (or any of the Midwest 3rd gens) could make to keep up with the new Mustangs or as Rob put it, "Turn a 3rd gen into a 4th gen". (Obviously some of the parts are legal in CMC1...we've just been too tight to spend the money.) This is probably the biggest point. Race cars wear out. When you back out the "gotta replace anyway because it's worn out" from the "gotta have to compete", the actual upgrade cost goes down considerably.

Brakes - 13 inch rotors and 4 piston calipers such as Wilwood. I believe they are an advantage as does anyone that made the switch. If nothing else it saves in pad costs $2,000 $780 with the rotors and a set of pads

Pads - Run something much better than Hawk Blues. I think the DTC70's are better than Blues as they are a much newer but more expensive compound. $250 $185. I was getting them for $158, but they took down the site

Shocks - Good race shocks like AST's. These aren't cheap like off the shelf Koni's but they are proven. Fast guys run good rears especially. $1,500 Yep, better shocks are better, reguardless of what you're running. But, not sure this should be on a "generation update" list

Diff - These are wear items that need to be serviced regularly. None of us do. $500 $0 Nope...I took out my new Auburn and went back to a stock diff. Not saying an old worn out pos diff doesn't need to be replaced, just saying $650 for a new Auburn or 2k for a 9" isn't nessacary

Wheels - Needs 17's to fit over the 13 inch rotors. Run the Z06's like Tim. Front will need expensive spacers, rear will need a 4th gen axle swap. $2,000 $0 as some 16" wheels fit just fine. I have to file off about .050 off the wing of the pad plate...takes about 2 minutes

Tires - Why not run 275's? Debate over unsprung weight but fast guys regardless of class or series run the biggest tire available...even TJ. $1,000 $0...see above note on 16" wheels

Rear Axle - Needs a 4th gen for the extra width to work with stock rear wheels. $500 Not sure...let's see the new track width rules

Trans Am Front Fascia - Improved Aero over the Formula ones we use. It's allowed in the rules...why not use it. With the removal of front air dams, need better front fascia. $250 Maybe. I chased what areo I could and I think it did work a little. But moot point as it's coming off this winter

Total for parts and not including labor. $8,000 Not sure the real total, as some of the items above are wear items that get replaced reguardless. My "upgrade" last winter was about $950 not including the switch to 17" rims....which I discovered after the fact that I didnt' need to do, and about $2,800 if you include the rims

Maybe keeping CMC1 isn't such a bad idea after all. Or merge with AI and call is AI1, AI2, AI3, AI4 like Honda Challenge/GTS.

 

Sidney

 

The point isn't to bash Sidney (as much as I like that particular sport)....just setting the record straight on costs. And I, for one, am glad we're back together as one big, happy family.....Well, except for when Momy and Daddy fight (when is Adam back from "vacation"??), and, I'm not sure about that Chris guy....

 

JERK!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Al Fernandez reminds me all the time about how CMC is NOT a SPEC Class.

I've always called it that since pretty much what you can do is "spec'ed" out in the rules.

semantics.....

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The list above was a result of an email discussion with Rob on why Bob's car was not first at Nationals. Some prices may be high but not by much. I used previous quotes for Big Brake kits and the $600/caliper rule. I'm also not sure it cost the same to upgrade to 4 piston brakes on a 3rd gen as it does a 4th gen. Kent's done the upgrade on a 4th gen so he may be closer. Not sure why Kent kicked out the 17 inch wheel/tire combo as he's on 17's with 275's as were the S197's. I don't think you can pull that mod out of this discussion. Pad price is cheaper for the Wilwoods/Stoptechs. I quoted LS1 prices. My bad. Glenn mentioned that Bob's video sounded like he was spinning tires and figured a new $500 diff can only help that situation.

 

The point of my email to Rob was to explain the difference between a well prepped car vs. a fast driver in an average car. Bob and his car are very fast but his car has considerable potential to be faster. I don't believe Anders' car has as much.

 

Carry on,

 

Sidney

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Can they not use restrictor plates on the newer cars like they do on the Camaros? Between that and weight penalties I think you would be able to even it out pretty good.

 

We wish it was that simple. The HP numbers of the new Camaro's and 5.0L Mustangs are in the 400+ range. A restrictor small enough to bring those numbers down to 260RWHP/310RWTQ would likely make the car undriveable. The new Camaro has an IRS....try "equalizing" that suspension to a 1979 Ford Fairmont.

 

Not to mention, those that can afford to take a brand new Mustang or Camaro are more likely to go AI racing than CMC - $$$.

 

The truth is we would need a guinea pig to buy a car, build it, and test it. Out of their own pocket.

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The HP numbers of the new Camaro's and 5.0L Mustangs are in the 400+ range. A restrictor small enough to bring those numbers down to 260RWHP/310RWTQ would likely make the car undriveable.

 

Indulge me in playing the devils advocate...

Do we know that for sure? Has anyone tried it? Is it time to consider allowing the new 300+ HP V6s in the series instead of V8s only? Would allowing non-V8s in the series also open the door to the Turbo 4s in the foxes? Would allowing anything other than a V8 emasculate the series and diminish it's appeal?

 

The new Camaro has an IRS....try "equalizing" that suspension to a 1979 Ford Fairmont.

 

Even though there are no Fairmonts in CMC, I realize you are making the point the suspension of the '79-'04 Mustangs can trace their origins back to the '77 Fairmont and Zephyr. However, as of the 2011 season, is anyone in a fox (besides us) still utilizing a stock suspension that hasn't been fully upgraded to at least the stock '04 specifications? Although based on the same 4-link rear and modified McPherson strut front, the '04 minimum suspension specs the chassis parity is based on is a world of improvement away from the '77 Fairmont. I don't think the comparison of the GM IRS to a '77 Fairmont is even close.

 

We've been equalizing the GM torque arm and twin a-arms with coilovers with the Ford 4-link and modified McPherson struts for years. Why can't we do it with the IRS? Have the IRS equipped cars been proven to have an "unfair advantage" over the solid axle cars on a road course, or have we merely been successful in avoiding confrontation up to this point with the "* IRS cars must replace the IRS with standard Mustang live axle" statement? Now that the GM camp also has an IRS available in the 5th gen Camaro, is it worthwhile thinking about allowing both the GM and Ford IRS into the series?

 

Not to mention, those that can afford to take a brand new Mustang or Camaro are more likely to go AI racing than CMC - $$$.

 

The truth is we would need a guinea pig to buy a car, build it, and test it. Out of their own pocket.

 

That's probably true... ...for now. But in 5-10 years you're going to have to deal with it anyway. So why not develop some sort of plan of action now in order to keep the grumbling to a minimum later and avoid 13+ pages of "unfair advantage" threads like this one?

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Not to mention, those that can afford to take a brand new Mustang or Camaro are more likely to go AI racing than CMC - $$$.

 

???

While no one racing CMC will go out and buy a 2011 to turn into a race car, this thread is 13 pages long about cars that are 6 years old and newer.

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Scott, I'm sure if someone put up the $$ to build a new Camaro (out of their pocket like Adam said), the CMC directors would be more than happy to look at the data from the build to determine if it could be an option for CMC in the future.

Considering the fact that (to my knowledge) there is only 1 new Camaro in AI and it hasn't really raced any (if at all) I would put CMC a much longer way away.

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I just saw a S-197 V6 on Horsepower TV make pretty much CMC power (a little short on TQ) w/ a couple already CMC legal bolt-ons. Consider that the car has an OEM 7K rev limit and a lighter V6 motor on the nose, it may be a good car to consider.

I'll keep my opinions on the IRS to myself.

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I just saw a S-197 V6 on Horsepower TV make pretty much CMC power (a little short on TQ) w/ a couple already CMC legal bolt-ons. Consider that the car has an OEM 7K rev limit and a lighter V6 motor on the nose, it may be a good car to consider.

I'll keep my opinions on the IRS to myself.

I rented a 2011 mustang v6 auto and that thing was awesome.

I honestly wish the Camaros were that good

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I just saw a S-197 V6 on Horsepower TV make pretty much CMC power (a little short on TQ) w/ a couple already CMC legal bolt-ons. Consider that the car has an OEM 7K rev limit and a lighter V6 motor on the nose, it may be a good car to consider.

I'll keep my opinions on the IRS to myself.

I rented a 2011 mustang v6 auto and that thing was awesome.

I honestly wish the Camaros were that good

 

Did not someone bring a v6 auto 2011 car to high plains?

You know who it was.

 

And with a set of R compounds I think he said he was only 3 seconds off his AI car times.

 

Not sure if you can say it's data logged research, but it easily illustrates the improvements of the newest cars...

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The Rules are pretty good as they are!

 

This is the biggest point the Directors need to keep in mind when making their decisions on rule changes. The Rules already allow the F-Bodies to perform as good or better than the S-197. The difference is the guys running the S-197's have ponied-up about $20,000 in the last couple of years to build their cars. They built them right off the shelf to maximize the rule book. If the F-Bodied guys would spend a fraction of that money, I'd guess we wouldn't be seeing this post. The rules already allow the parity. Sidney has pointed out a number of areas where Bob's car could go faster if he would spend a little money to do so. Time to step-up Bow-Tie boys!

 

Lets not dumb-down the series. Lets move forward.

 

"I just wanna go fast..."

 

Ricky Bobbie

NASA-SE

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