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supermac

Talk to me about 5th Gen Camaros

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supermac

What would it take to get one of these out there?

Here's what I'm thinking.

Wrecked V6 car, LS1 and a t56

Factory everything except the standard issue stuff ie: bushings shocks and brakes.

If you cry foul about the IRS we can discuss a stick axle and how would you police pick-up points?

Let us Chevy guys step up to the plate, I have a guy who wants to do this.

What does the general public (racers) think?

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Glenn

IRS is a deal breaker. If there was an OEM way around this (like on the SN-95/99 cars).

Sorry.

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supermac

Thanks for answering Glenn and I believe you when you say sorry.

So when everyone says we don't want this to become a vintage class I guess that only applys to fords? When people ask why the chevy guys don't step up I guess that our option.for stepping up is a fixing up an 18 year old car. I guess when the ford guys howl don't blame ford for making a better car that it is a one way ford only gripe?

I'm sorry but CMC and nasa national have to allow this car. Or a lot of us GM guys fear of a ford bias will be confirmed.

It has been written in magazine after magazine that the mustang rear suspension is better than the Camaro and that car is legal. Why the bias.

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Glenn
Thanks for answering Glenn and I believe you when you say sorry.

So when everyone says we don't want this to become a vintage class I guess that only applys to fords? When people ask why the chevy guys don't step up I guess that our option.for stepping up is a fixing up an 18 year old car. I guess when the ford guys howl don't blame ford for making a better car that it is a one way ford only gripe?

I'm sorry but CMC and nasa national have to allow this car. Or a lot of us GM guys fear of a ford bias will be confirmed.

It has been written in magazine after magazine that the mustang rear suspension is better than the Camaro and that car is legal. Why the bias.

 

Can you wait and see what rules adjustments are made before you jump ship?

I would love to see the new Camaro in CMC. I can't see it at 260HP, and I can't see being able to police the rear camber and toe on the IRS. Will 17" wheels fit on the car? Are there 13" brake options? We will not go down the rabbit hole of 18" wheels and 14" brakes.

If you got a guy who is going to build a track car from a 5th gen, why not do some limited testing at CMC power?

 

I agree the allowable Ford model years is very one sided compared to the GM's. 1979-2011 Ford and 1982-2002 GM. I get it. But the last thing we want is to ask our current racers to spend more money to allow newer cars right after we did the whole CMC2 thing w/ minimal payoff.

The class will like be vintage to some degree w/ regards to year model, but we see new Fox builds every year. More and more 4th gens will be built as well. I see the class growing in size w/ an increase in drivers on the points sheets, new regions that are just getting started and new tracks being built in major population areas (NOLA and Austin F1).

 

Like I said, I feel your pain, but sometimes the right answer isn't the only answer you have in front of you. I know you want to see the Trans Am of 1970 run in 2012 at a NASA event, but I just don't think CMC is where that is gonna happen. W/ a major overhaul of AI over the next few years, it is possible.

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supermac

I'm not going anywhere.

We would be willing to try and answer those questions. And we would want to know that there is a hope that the car will be allowed at some point.

I would have to race against this car with a very good driver in it, I am not particularly afraid of the car, they are fat!

I just think that CMC and nasa national needs a plan for these cars.

I think to just say no is shortsighted.

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roadracerwhite

I don't know we haven't really talked about allowing the Camaro or Callenger yet.

 

The IRS is one thing, the brakes and wheels are another. Then there is the engine power for the 8cyl or do we allow the 6 cyl or we just use a truck 5.3?

 

So what package would you put together to make a Camaro legal?

 

Engine;

one could easily put a 350 ls1 or a 5.3 ls1 in it and be at the power level. The 6 cyl might make the power, but it may be too much of an advantage.

Rear Suspension;

Independent rear might be the new gotta have it. Then again it may be ok to start out with a stock suspension.

Brakes;

-SS car has 14 in brakes, not legal for CMC and I hope it is not going to happen for a while in CMC. Look at how this drove unhappiness in AI.

-6 cyl car has 12.6 in brakes which would be legal though.

Wheels;

-the wheels are all 18's we saw what happened with the 18's fiasco in AI

Weight;

What weight would you start them out at?

 

Like Glenn said, the 14 in brakes and 18 in wheels are no gos for sure.

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Adam Ginsberg
I'm not going anywhere.

We would be willing to try and answer those questions. And we would want to know that there is a hope that the car will be allowed at some point.

I would have to race against this car with a very good driver in it, I am not particularly afraid of the car, they are fat!

I just think that CMC and nasa national needs a plan for these cars.

I think to just say no is shortsighted.

 

The simply reality is we can't promise the 5th Gen Camaro's will be allowed in CMC, even with all the testing that will have to be done. It may happen, it may not.

 

Right now, there is a plan, and a place, for the 5th Gen to race, as is - it's called AI.

 

And, for now, we have to say no to allowing a 5th Gen Camaro into CMC. Especially for one driver when we have approximately 100 CMC cars across the country.

 

We may get there one day, but it won't happen now, it may not happen in 2013, and it won't happen overnight.

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supermac
I'm not going anywhere.

We would be willing to try and answer those questions. And we would want to know that there is a hope that the car will be allowed at some point.

I would have to race against this car with a very good driver in it, I am not particularly afraid of the car, they are fat!

I just think that CMC and nasa national needs a plan for these cars.

I think to just say no is shortsighted.

 

The simply reality is we can't promise the 5th Gen Camaro's will be allowed in CMC, even with all the testing that will have to be done. It may happen, it may not.

 

Right now, there is a plan, and a place, for the 5th Gen to race, as is - it's called AI.

 

And, for now, we have to say no to allowing a 5th Gen Camaro into CMC. Especially for one driver when we have approximately 100 CMC cars across the country.

 

We may get there one day, but it won't happen now, it may not happen in 2013, and it won't happen overnight.

There always has to be the first one why not now? I ask seriously, what are we waiting for? It is going to happen, why wait?

I go back to the s-197, as far as I can tell it was legal from day one of CMC 2 what is so special about that car...could it be....the dreaded ford conspiracy?

I am not trying to rock the boat and putting our.head in the sand is not going to make this go away.

If you say AI again I will wash your mouth out with soap

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roadracerwhite

Challenger has similar issues;

 

the base wheels are 17x7, everything else is 18's or bigger.

 

the base brakes are 12.6, the next model up is 13.6

 

the six cylinder seems a little under power and the v8 is way over.

 

beyond that is has a independent rear too.

 

Challenger specs;

http://media.chrysler.com/dcxms/assets/specs/2009_DodgeChallengerSpecifications_launch.pdf

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supermac
I don't know we haven't really talked about allowing the Camaro or Callenger yet.

 

The IRS is one thing, the brakes and wheels are another. Then there is the engine power for the 8cyl or do we allow the 6 cyl or we just use a truck 5.3?

 

So what package would you put together to make a Camaro legal?

 

Engine;

one could easily put a 350 ls1 or a 5.3 ls1 in it and be at the power level. The 6 cyl might make the power, but it may be too much of an advantage.

Rear Suspension;

Independent rear might be the new gotta have it. Then again it may be ok to start out with a stock suspension.

Brakes;

-SS car has 14 in brakes, not legal for CMC and I hope it is not going to happen for a while in CMC. Look at how this drove unhappiness in AI.

-6 cyl car has 12.6 in brakes which would be legal though.

Wheels;

-the wheels are all 18's we saw what happened with the 18's fiasco in AI

Weight;

What weight would you start them out at?

 

Like Glenn said, the 14 in brakes and 18 in wheels are no gos for sure.

 

My thoughts are ls1, keep it simple.

17" wheels and 13" brakes for sure.

The irs must be dealt with at some point, say limit camber and toe to a number, you tell me.

Wieght won't be an issue, they at fat!

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Glenn

The 5th gen does not have an LS1. I think it is an LS3.

 

Why not create a NEW CMC2 (realize the CMC2 of 2011 will be just CMC for 2012) and move the S-197 there and then allow the 5th gen there as well?

We can allow other platforms to move up if they want.

 

 

 

There always has to be the first one why not now? I ask seriously, what are we waiting for? It is going to happen, why wait?

I go back to the s-197, as far as I can tell it was legal from day one of CMC 2 what is so special about that car...could it be....the dreaded ford conspiracy?

I am not trying to rock the boat and putting our.head in the sand is not going to make this go away.

If you say AI again I will wash your mouth out with soap

 

You say it IS going to happen, but I'm not sure why you say that. None of the current Directors will destroy CMC just to allow the 5thgen Camaro. So I don't see us as waiting.

The difference w/ the S-197 was it was close to CMC2 power (as was the LS1 car), and it shared the basic suspension design of the other CMC cars - solid axle being the key point.

Other than that, it is not special. Compaired to the 5th gen, it is a turd. The 5thgen Camaro has much bigger power, bigger brakes, IRS, big ass wheels. Where would we find a set of 17's fora car that is OEM w/ 18"/19" wheels? Alot of this would go against what got CMC going in the first place - low cost racing. That goes out the window when you have custom one off wheels for a budget class. Custom built solid axle for a car that is IRS for a budget class.

 

Lets make the new CMC'ish (American Muscle?) class for the CTS-V, 5th gen Camaro, G8, GTO, S-197, Challenger/Charger. I would even be open to 1/2 ton trucks (single cab short bed 2 wheel drive) using the OEM V8's.

 

Keep eveything showroom stock w/ spring and shock mods. Equalize brakes and tire contact patch. Use weight to even things out.

 

 

Back on topic - Cody, I'm w/ ya man. But I just don't see it working. It is great that you believe, but your not the one who is held responsible when it doesn't work. It is the "managment" who get's all the finger pointing. They/we have all the risk and none of the glory.

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supermac

My plan would be a wrecked v6 car with a transplant ls1 that makes the engine a non issue. Similar to the same engine going forward with the s-197 from the sn-95.

The coyote motor and the ls3 add a whole new can of worms.

I think that the s-197 suspension while the same basic design, is far superior in action to the existing CMC cars.

The last thing I want is another class. We are Camaro mustang challenge, not challenger, gto, ctsv challenge.

The reason I believe it is going to happen is that in another 5 years or so you could not possibly have a legitimate CMC without having this car.

It would be the old busted ass Camaro brand spanken new mustang challenge.

We all know that isn't going to happen.

I realize the perceived risk in doing this and as the ford guys love saying it is not my fault chevy did a good job on the new car.

We aren't asking to get this done this year, just give us some groundrules and let's see what we have. We can already run ccw's so the wheel argument is tough.

At some point IRS is going to have to be addressed. Why not now or at least soon.

Glenn, Adam, Al you know I love you guys and I know you guys are in a crappy spot and that's the job!

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ls168camaro
The 5th gen does not have an LS1. I think it is an LS3.

 

The difference w/ the S-197 was it was close to CMC2 power (as was the LS1 car), and it shared the basic suspension design of the other CMC cars - solid axle being the key point.

Other than that, it is not special. Compaired to the 5th gen, it is a turd. The 5thgen Camaro has much bigger power, bigger brakes, IRS, big ass wheels. Where would we find a set of 17's fora car that is OEM w/ 18"/19" wheels? Alot of this would go against what got CMC going in the first place - low cost racing. That goes out the window when you have custom one off wheels for a budget class. Custom built solid axle for a car that is IRS for a budget class.

 

.

Glenn-read this little comparison at the race track. I believe the turd is the 5th Gen but it does have big ass wheels. Cody is right they are fat. I'm pretty certain the 4th Gen Chassis doesn't have an advantage over a new M3 on the racetrack, but they are saying the Mustang does. And they have a Stig at the wheel of both along with a novice.

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html

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MHISSTC

So what does the new COPO Camaro just introduced at SEMA this year come with as far as a rear axle? All I could find was that it had a "drag race suspension". I doubt that means it has an IRS. I also read it could come with either a supercharged 5.3L or N.A.7.0L. Like has been mentioned previously here and other places, I'd like to see someone build one of those 5.3L cheap truck engines with an eye towards CMC.

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ls168camaro

The COPO concept Drag car does have a straight axle underneath it for drag racing. No word on if they will build it but it would be over 100k I think.

 

My opinion is all cars eventually end up in Vintage or just left to rot. NASA should realize this and look to offer a new CMC class for stuff 2008 and up or something. Something to allow the 400 hp factory cars a place to race. I know they look at that class as being AI but that isn't a class where you can put a cage in it and go race competitively. Like Glenn says a showroom stock kind of class.

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JoeK
My opinion is all cars eventually end up in Vintage or just left to rot. NASA should realize this and look to offer a new CMC class for stuff 2008 and up or something. Something to allow the 400 hp factory cars a place to race. I know they look at that class as being AI but that isn't a class where you can put a cage in it and go race competitively. Like Glenn says a showroom stock kind of class.

 

Hmm, kind of like a CMC3?

 

CMC1 = Sort of vintage, but not (Foxes, 3rd Gens, 230hp)

CMC2 = Newer cars with not so much restriction (Current models already allowed, 260hp or more, perhaps 300?)

CMC3 = Newest cars. Let Cody get his 5th Gen. Let the class killing (joke ) S-197's battle it out. 400 hp new cars any grandma can buy at a dealer.

 

I would like to see each newer generation get a next level CMC class. So we don't have to phase out the foxes and 3rd gens. And depending on the region, it may be overwhelming towards one class number.

 

Hope I'm not sturring the pot too much, but I'd like to see the new cars out there, and it will happen eventually. Just let me keep my Fox and have fun.

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Glenn
My opinion is all cars eventually end up in Vintage or just left to rot. NASA should realize this and look to offer a new CMC class for stuff 2008 and up or something. Something to allow the 400 hp factory cars a place to race. I know they look at that class as being AI but that isn't a class where you can put a cage in it and go race competitively. Like Glenn says a showroom stock kind of class.

 

Hmm, kind of like a CMC3?

 

CMC1 = Sort of vintage, but not (Foxes, 3rd Gens, 230hp)

CMC2 = Newer cars with not so much restriction (Current models already allowed, 260hp or more, perhaps 300?)

CMC3 = Newest cars. Let Cody get his 5th Gen. Let the class killing (joke ) S-197's battle it out. 400 hp new cars any grandma can buy at a dealer.

 

I would like to see each newer generation get a next level CMC class. So we don't have to phase out the foxes and 3rd gens. And depending on the region, it may be overwhelming towards one class number.

 

Hope I'm not sturring the pot too much, but I'd like to see the new cars out there, and it will happen eventually. Just let me keep my Fox and have fun.

 

CMC 1 (230 hp) is gone as of Dec 31st 2011.

So the 2012 CMC class w/out the S-197 would be CMC.

Then we would have the AMC (American Muscle Challenge) w/ the S-197 and all the other cars I mentioned above. GTO's, CTS-V's, G8's, Challenger/Charger (manual trans cars only). No motor transplants - OEM motors only. No limited production or special production cars - Z28's, GT's etc...

Got to pick a common wheel and tire size, 13" or 14" brakes. Keep the weight high to start (3400lbs). $2000 limit of shocks (4), spring rates open. OEM trans (as delivered in a legal platform)..

320 HP/330 TQ or there abouts.

 

 

I would rather build a class using late model circle track chassis (so they are all the same) and put CMC type rules and power levels in place.

Boy that would end alot of debates.

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supermac

Bryan, Joe don't make me come find you!

The last thing we need is another class.

It is not needed, if I was trying to detune an ls3 or a coyote motor in an

S-197 then we might have a problem.

It has been written over and over that the new mustang solid axle is every bit as good if not better than the Camaro IRS and the mustang is legal already.

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Glenn
Bryan, Joe don't make me come find you!

The last thing we need is another class.

It is not needed, if I was trying to detune an ls3 or a coyote motor in an

S-197 then we might have a problem.

It has been written over and over that the new mustang solid axle is every bit as good if not better than the Camaro IRS and the mustang is legal already.

 

Cody - give me a call.

817-350-3542

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ls168camaro

I would rather build a class using late model circle track chassis (so they are all the same) and put CMC type rules and power levels in place.

Boy that would end alot of debates.

 

Now your talking. I would love some sort of spec circle track chassis class on a Toyo at our power levels. I always look at those cars and think that is the way to go but then you don't have anyone to race so I can't be a mid pack slacker. There is also a 5th Gen Body that you can put on them.

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MHISSTC
The COPO concept Drag car does have a straight axle underneath it for drag racing. No word on if they will build it but it would be over 100k I think.

 

I wasn't interested in using the whole car as a CMC candidate, just the rear axle.

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D Algozine

Current AI racer, I've been considering "The Switch", so be nice.

 

A lot of the research on the stock suspension of the new Mustang and Camaro has been done already, and more then once. The S197 has a superior suspension to the 5 Gen. It certainly wouldn' take much to replicate the data. I think the research and data would confirm that a 5th gen with LS1 or 5.3 power, 13" brakes and 17" wheels would likely be inferior to a similiar power CMC legal S197. The fact is the new Mustangs just handle better.

There is one 5 Gen AI car, Brian Groth. If your serious, I would contact him. He's worked with Phaft Engineering and I'm pretty sure, he's still looking for ways to improve the handling.

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roadracerwhite
Bryan, Joe don't make me come find you!

The last thing we need is another class.

It is not needed, if I was trying to detune an ls3 or a coyote motor in an

S-197 then we might have a problem.

It has been written over and over that the new mustang solid axle is every bit as good if not better than the Camaro IRS and the mustang is legal already.

 

I agree the last thing we need is another class or to split it again.

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raybob92891548534723

The 5th Gen V6 Camaro is almost CMC legal except for the IRS. and the base model comes with 18" wheels which can be easlily replaced with 17"s.

A 2010 V6 base Camaro with an LS1 and T56 6speed (which BTW is an update backdate) should weigh around 3,500 lbs +/- so why not let Cody

run one and do the reseach on his dime? Or we GM guys gotta use up every 4th gen evermade before the powers that be look at the 5th Gen Camaro? But mean while FoMoCo dudes are out racin 05,06,07 Mustangs, don't seem fair to me???

The 5th gens will be coming to CMC eventually, its gonna happen...

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Glenn

I'll never say no to someone who wants to do R&R out of their pocket for CMC. Just as long as there is ZERO expectations no matter what the results are.

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