Members Al F. Posted November 15, 2011 Members Share Posted November 15, 2011 Version 1 of the 2012 CMC rules can be found within the rules section of the pony car web site: http://www.nasaponycars.com/Rules.html We've also posted a delta file highlighting changes from 2011 at the same place. That file gets a little messy at times, so use with caution!! A HUGE thanks to all of our competitors and directors that had an active role in this (many more than you might think)! Whether it was submitting an RCR, or providing your opinion, or doing some investigative work, its all a great big team effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2011 Ok, now that I've got the first post out, I'll get into the changes. I already posted the decisions the CMC Directors had made regarding RCRs and nothing has changed in the final version from what I explained then. Please refer to this post: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4045 The big question on everyone's mind of course is what changes are happening for S197s. The answer is S197s will be running on 235/40/17s instead of 275s. There has been of course plenty of debate here on this forum and I can assure you plenty more between the directors, with NASA HQ, with Ford Racing, and with non CMC racers. In short, we (CMC Officials and NASA HQ) feel this is the best change we can make in order to equalize the platforms. Now...I will freely admit that we could be wrong. Maybe by a little, maybe by a lot. We will therefore continue to look at this as the race results come in and if we need to do more, we'll do more. If we need to do less, we'll do less. The bottom line is we will continue to actively manage the performance capability of the different platforms in order to ensure folks dont win or lose CMC by choosing which platform to build. To our fellow S197s drivers...I am sorry you have to bear the burden of change. We cannot have platform parity without making changes, and the changes cannot always be to speed everyone up to the fastest level. Tires are consumable and I'm sure you can find buyers for your inventory. To our fellow NON S197 drivers...I encourage you to offer your fellow S197 guys fair market value for their 275s, particularly if they're local to you. Give them a hand. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 For all the concern over the unknowns, I think the 2012 rules turned out to be very livable. Some of the things I like: * The single Power and Weight table is sooo much easier to read. * The track width table and the explanation on how to measure it is nice. * The diagram of the radiator air defector dimensions made things super clear. I may be asking for additional clarification later on the spoiler/wing rule as it relates to the fox Mustangs. There is quite a variation in factory spoilers through the years and it's not completely clear in my mind as to where the deck lid/rear hatch ends and the spoiler begins and where exactly I need to be measuring the dimensions from. I'll have to take a look at some of the examples I have first. A couple quick questions: In section 7.31 Wheels/Tires... 1. I am assuming as long as we stick with Toyo RA1s as the series tire of choice, and as long as the widest one they make is a 255VR50/16, that will be the largest tire we can use on a 16" diameter wheel. The maximum sized tire is specified for the 17" diameter wheels. I was just wondering if we need to do the same for the 16" diameter wheels. 2. Why is the maximum width of the 16" wheel still specified as 8" when Toyo specifies an approved rim width range of 7"-9" with their 255VR50/16 RA1s and we're allowing a max wheel width of 9.5" with the 17" diameter wheels? I'm relieved to see the Edelbrock Performer #2121 remained on the list of approved intake manifolds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 16, 2011 Good catch Scott, that is a "copy/paste" error. 16" wheels are not limited to 8" width. V1.1 is on its way to being uploaded with this correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68Cobra Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Al, Thank you and everyone involved with putting the 2012 Rules together. I know there were MANY hours of work that went into it & I appreciate your dedication to our group. There are MANY improvements to the rule book itself this year. Much cleaner & easier to read. While I was not exactly excited to be religated to run a smaller tire, I think you did your best to not OVER-React by making wholesale changes to the S197 cars in other areas such as weight, suspension, brakes & horsepower numbers. I also appreciate you leaving this open for future modifications. If after we start running the more narrow tire next year, we find we are at a DISADVANTAGE, it appears you would be willing to make allowances to modify this change along the way during next season. That's all we can ask for. All the Best! James Ray #68 NASA-SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlingle Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Rule book is a lot easier to read now. Thanks to Al, Glenn, Adam, and the rest of the directors for taking the time to get this cleaned up. Your hard work is appreciated. I had never even thought of narrower tires for the S197 but that seems like a logical place to start thats not hard to enforce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 7.4 Allowed body components and update/backdate of body components 4. 1994-1996. Mustang base model, GT 5. 1997-2004 Mustang base model, GT, cobra (1999 and 2001 only, not cobra r) 1997 and 1998 cobras have the same bumper as the 1994-1996 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjoblom65 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I'm glad vi finally got the rules finalized! So are the tire rules for the S197 in effect with no grace period? I just went and counted how many tires I have and the total is 26 of the 275/40-17. This really sucks from my point of view since will be really costly no matter how you swing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 i would gladly take some of those off your hands!!!! but at least you can run take off spec miata tires!! lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadracerwhite Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 7.4 Allowed body components and update/backdate of body components 4. 1994-1996. Mustang base model, GT 5. 1997-2004 Mustang base model, GT, cobra (1999 and 2001 only, not cobra r) 1997 and 1998 cobras have the same bumper as the 1994-1996 Someone else caught that as well. It will be fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 7.4 Allowed body components and update/backdate of body components 4. 1994-1996. Mustang base model, GT 5. 1997-2004 Mustang base model, GT, cobra (1999 and 2001 only, not cobra r) 1997 and 1998 cobras have the same bumper as the 1994-1996 I don't understand why the 97-98 Cobra needs to be added to the list? The car is not legal. If the same part number is used for the 94-96 (Cobra I assume or is it GT?) then it is already covered. I don't think we need to list every model a part is used on to ensure legality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Never mind. Someone pointed it out to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I'm glad vi finally got the rules finalized! So are the tire rules for the S197 in effect with no grace period? I just went and counted how many tires I have and the total is 26 of the 275/40-17. This really sucks from my point of view since will be really costly no matter how you swing this. Stop winning so many races and you won't have that problem! Come spring, I"m gonna bet that they may be easy to unload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor571548534737 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Do the sn95, and s197 share offset/bolt pattern? I will be in the market if so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Bolt pattern is the same. Offset is different but it also depends on spacers used and various front suspension parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capaldi22 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 That confirms me running in a different class. It's too bad that you have to punish the S197's because the camaro and firebird guys cant figure out how to build a competitive race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor571548534737 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I find the last post funny for at least 3 reasons. Good luck in your other class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I find the last post funny for at least 3 reasons. Good luck in your other class. I can only come up with 2: Fox and SN95. What's the other reason?!!! Sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 but at least you can run take off spec miata tires!! lol! I find this funny! But dont find Capaldi's statement funny at all (not so much the firebird/camaro statement).. but that we've got another good team/car headed away from the series.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Think of all the American Iron guys that run 197s that wanted to run the series because of how expensive AI is. i know 1 that was on the fence and now he said the hell with that!! is it even safe to strech a 235 on a 9.5 inch wheel??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 That confirms me running in a different class. It's too bad that you have to punish the S197's because the camaro and firebird guys cant figure out how to build a competitive race car. Really? You're quitting because your platfrom got punished? Did they make your brakes antiquated by allowing larger rotors? Did they make your engine outdated by bumping up the HP, forcing you to modify your engine or swap it out all together? Did they make your marginal tranmission even more likely to go boom by increasing the HP? Did they increase the wheel size to something that was never offered on your car? Did they increase tire width to something that requires a bit of modification just to run? These are all 'punishments' as well. May as well toss in the SN95 and Fox guys as well since they can't figure out how to build a competitve race car to trump the S197's either, right? If everyone quit when the rules were adjusted to 'punish' their car platform, nobody would be left in CMC or ANY OTHER CLASS in any racing series... ever! Holy crap! It's a tire width change, not like their making you swap out your brakes for 12" rotors or forcing you to swap out transmissions or heavily modify your engine or swap it out completely. Get your head out your ass for a moment and look at it from someone else's point of view. It's been a struggle as it is getting the foxes and third gens up to be competitive in CMC(2). Is it THAT wrong to ask the higher platforms to come down a little while getting the lower platforms to come up a lot? It's how the 230hp limit came about (for CMC1). Were the LT1 guys happy about it? I'm sure they weren't. Maybe the should have just made the 5.0 guys figure out how to build a competitive car. But no, they were brought down to 230 to make EVERYONE give a little. With CMC2, the 5.0 and 4.6 cars were forced to make changes to build a competitive racecar. Were the LS1 guys happy? Guess what, I'm sure they weren't, after all they had to restrict their cars down and add weight while the other had to make changes to bump up. Maybe your saying the S197's should be the benchmark every other car should have to build up to. Fine, but then there would have to be even more allowances (ie spending) for all the other cars to get to that level. Guess what, as soon as those rules come out allowing foxes to do even more, and LT1 cars to do this, and SN95's to do that, I guarandamntee you, the S197 guys would be complaining that it's not fair that all the other platforms get to modify whatever it is, just like the GM guys complain about allowing the Fords adding a panhard bar, and the Ford guys complain about the GMs running 350s etc etc. Give and take for crying out loud. That's how compromise works. Heck, they 'unfairly' added 50lbs to third gens a few years ago, I and every third gen driver should have screamed for the data and then quit, right? Who says you have to run it on a 9.5" wheel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 [Who says you have to run it on a 9.5" wheel? thats what the rules say we can run... so if you already have 20 of them.. you would have to buy more wheels to make the combo safe.. just sayin yes its not as big of a deal as a motor change or something.. but you cant get a 197 under 3400 lbs.. think a bout it.. i wasnt kidding when i said spec miata tire.. it is.. thats a lot of weight on those little tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Think of all the American Iron guys that run 197s that wanted to run the series because of how expensive AI is. i know 1 that was on the fence and now he said the hell with that!! is it even safe to strech a 235 on a 9.5 inch wheel??? OEM 8" wheels should be cheap and easy to find and light as well. If they decided to not run CMC due to the desire of the Directors to even the field, they were likely just cherry picking the class they felt they would have an advantage racing in. And Alien - great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 on a plus side.. the 235s are 5 pounds a tire lighter than the 275s per toyo website!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Are they cheaper as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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