CF03GT Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 We came off the scales at 3261 post race w/ driver and empty tank at Nats. I'm guessing I weigh 190 w/ helmet, suit, hans (I'm 175 bone nekkid). This weight issue, isnt really an issue. Anders has some more to lose, but think the rest of us 197's are right there close to the 3250 minimum (those of us under 260hp).. have been. Thanks. Just wanted to be sure it was a measurement you could get to. Did that include a coolsuit? No coolsuit system at that weight I listed above. We came off the scales at 3280'ish w/ the coolshirt system and little less than 1/8th tank gas, with driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 and little less than 1/8th tank gas, with driver. So these cars will run the fuel load to almost bone dry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor571548534737 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 How dare you imply that there are advantages to the s197. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 and little less than 1/8th tank gas, with driver. So these cars will run the fuel load to almost bone dry? My sn99 would run w/ 2 gallons in the tank as well. Dont think either could go much past that (well I KNOW the s197 wont ) Ps. Take a look at the s197 fuel tank set-up for some more "advantage" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry klamecki Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 If memory serves, we finished one race. At 3253 lbs nearly bone dry. Most other race finishes at 3380 to 3390. Our fuel gauge didn't work so we were taking a conservative approach to fuel load. Larry Klamecki 2006 Mustang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 So I would just like to know... what two 197s were used, who was driving, what type of data systems were used, did they use gps? Whos others cars they were compaired to, who was driving those cars, were they all on equally fresh tires? Same fuel load and at peak performance? I seem to remember Anders didn't always take pole with his car and he wasn't always the fastest. I am totally for someone kicking my a$$ on a set of 235s but at the same time. When I build my 197 for next year I really don't want to run on such a skinny tire. Let's face it. Those tires wont even look right on those cars. A 245 bfg looks like its hardly a tire on the car. Im sure someone else had seen my previous post about the 20 pounds they will be saving in tire weight. That's rotating weight.. the best kind to lose. By the way.. I think Robin Brunett is the only car in AI still with 17s Oh and if 235s are legal.. can I use those for rain tires? Think of the advantages there!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry klamecki Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Good questions, Bluebandit. It seems reasonable that the logic behind the change, and the supporting data would be readily disclosed. On another note, we're the only S197 running on the west coast (except for downtime for crash damage), so I don't know who the S197 guys are around the country. I would love to share info amongst us. Who are current and prospective S197 CMC drivers and where do you race? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCMC17 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Unfortunate to see the GM boys struggling to prep their cars as well as the S197's. Well, at least that's what I was told years ago by the GM gang regarding parity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Unfortunate to see the GM boys struggling to prep their cars as well as the S197's. Well, at least that's what I was told years ago by the GM gang regarding parity. RE: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4037&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150 I would like to take this opportunity to formally apologize to Tony G, Al F, Adam G, Todd C (reluctantly), Eric V, Nick S, Brad S, Julie W, and those whose names now escape me for the endless, needless and worthless rants I posted on this and other forums over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMark Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Good questions, Bluebandit. It seems reasonable that the logic behind the change, and the supporting data would be readily disclosed. On another note, we're the only S197 running on the west coast (except for downtime for crash damage), so I don't know who the S197 guys are around the country. I would love to share info amongst us. Who are current and prospective S197 CMC drivers and where do you race? I was going to build an S197 next year, now I'll just wait it out and see how things go. Just put the S197 up on auto trader, good thing I didn't gut it yet... -Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I was going to build an S197 next year, now I'll just wait it out and see how things go. Just put the S197 up on auto trader, good thing I didn't gut it yet... -Don Don, What year and how much? Sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Good questions, Bluebandit. It seems reasonable that the logic behind the change, and the supporting data would be readily disclosed. On another note, we're the only S197 running on the west coast (except for downtime for crash damage), so I don't know who the S197 guys are around the country. I would love to share info amongst us. Who are current and prospective S197 CMC drivers and where do you race? I was going to build an S197 next year, now I'll just wait it out and see how things go. Just put the S197 up on auto trader, good thing I didn't gut it yet... -Don Damn - An S197 was on my list of "next cars to race"... just not in 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68Cobra Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I'm running an S197 in the Southeast. My car (and I) weigh more than Chris, but not as much as Anders. It's gutted pretty good. I usually try & finish a race w/about 1/8-1/4 of a tank. Generally I'll cross the scales between 3320-3340, depending on the scales & if I'm using a Cool Shirt set-up. 3250, in my opinion, DOES take a lot of work & creativity to get down to. If I had to guess the weight of my car empty, no fuel, no driver, I'd put it at about 3100-3120lbs. I'd be in favor of a 3300lb min weight & a little bigger tire. Maybe a 255. I believe the 235's are going to give up on us after a half dozen laps. Al's testing was with ONE S197 that is an A/I car in his home Region of Texas. He told me he used a TraqMate & ran 3 laps, same car, same driver, same track, same conditions with a 275, then with a 235. He said the lap times on each tire were very consistent & within a .10 of a second of each other. He believed, in reviewing data from Mid-O, that Chris & Anders had an advantage under braking & in the corners over all other competitors. His test results yielded lap times 1 second slower on 235's vs. 275's & the cornering data showed, as expected, less capability on the smaller tire. The problem as I see it is that 3 laps does not equal a race. We all know that if you push tires too hard, they give up. A 235 on a 3300lb + car is not going to keep it's grip for 30-45 minutes. 3 laps is probably about the extent of it! But we all need to MOVE ON! The decision has been made. I will be buying a couple of sets of 235's to get the season started. Al has said, if this puts us at a disadvantage after we run part of the season, he's agreeable to change the rule again, mid-season. So lets go see what happens. If those of us who have been running up front in the S197's find ourselves mid-pack or tail-end Charlie's, Al has already stated he would adjust the rules again to keep it even. So lets suck it up & LETS GO RACE! James Ray #68 NASA-SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldCMC17 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Al has said, if this puts us at a disadvantage after we run part of the season, he's agreeable to change the rule again, mid-season. So lets go see what happens. Glad Al is able to spend other's money on a whim or at will for the entire S197 crowd. I'd be jumping up and down demanding a lack of confidence vote at this point if I was running an S197. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capaldi22 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Where is the "Like This Button" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Al's testing was with ONE S197 that is an A/I car in his home Region of Texas. His test results yielded lap times 1 second slower on 235's vs. 275's & the cornering data showed, as expected, less capability on the smaller tire. we are changing the rules based on the testing from a car that is not even in our class... maybe we should have had Dean Martin run them in ST and see the difference.. or put a 275 on a spec miata.. 1 second a lap would put Anders to second to last. http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2078812 check this one out.. http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2078816&perclass=1 Chris wasn't even the fastest in this one.. Anders Broke the track record but.. finished 6th.. ? http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2030126&perclass=1 I can see why Capaldi would be pissed about this another second onto his lap times he would be running by himself! and frankly.. I wouldn't want to spend money on tires just to have the rules get changed back. My budget wouldn't allow me to "suck it up" for that. I do need a new set a rains.. and if 235s are going to be kept legal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 You can skew any data by looking at a limited set of results and using that as the basis for your argument. Why don't you check out the results from Nationals, or better yet watch the video. In the Championship race, despite carrying a ton of extra weight, even adding a second, Anders would be vying for 1st place. Chris would also. Had Chris not run out of gas, the two of them would have run away from the rest of the field completely. http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2074316&perclass=1 Anders finished sixth in the race you pointed out despite creaming a tire wall in the first lap. Plus, that was Chris F.'s first weekend in that car. He didn't even own it yet. He had just rented it for that weekend. I think Capaldi was running Hoosiers the weekend in your example and I don't believe he was quite up to speed with this car yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 my bad.. I thought I included the nationals.. Either way.. 235s are too much. cool.. slow them down.. give me a chance to win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 cool.. slow them down.. give me a chance to win I'd be happy if I was close enough to still see them by the end of the race...and not in the rearview mirror when they're lapping me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 28, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Guys, we're rehashing a few things. NASA is not the FIA. We do not have the budget to do the kind of testing some of you think should happen prior to a change in the rules. Luckily we also dont have the entry fees that would be required in order to enable that kind of testing. You're not going to see a 45page engineering dissertation on this change because it doesnt exist. What exists is a bit of Traqmate data from several cars on several tracks and a good amount of educated opinion from some very talented drivers and builders from around the country. For the record the testing we did do with 235s was not in an out of class car, thought it still wasnt a CMC2 spec S197. It was on the TX Region's 2011 champ's 4th gen with James Proctor at the wheel. He ran a full session, not three laps. I focused on three consecutive laps that were within a couple of thousands of each other (I'm happy to run within a couple of tenths lap to lap!! geez). As expected, the car accelerated slightly better (the tire is lighter and smaller diameter, this is good given the S197's current performance in a straight line) and lost time everywhere else. I'm not sure I'd stick to "1 second" being what will happen to all S197s as James lost more time on the brakes then I expected. That may be due to him remembering me telling him to not square the tires as those are the only ones we had and the fact that this particular track has three 180degree turns! lol The goal was to determine a way to slow the S197 down in the corners and in the braking zones. That is why we decided on tires and not more weight or less power, or other options. Yes tires are expensive, but they are also a consumable. The 235 does bring a handy advantage of allowing S197 drivers choose the plentyful and cheap OE wheels (that are too narrow for 275s). James Ray is right, we will continue to look at the data and see where we go. Maybe the speed difference is perfect but the tire wear is unacceptable. Maybe the cars are too slow. Maybe they're still too fast! We'll have to see. The decision is not unilateral. All CMC Directors have a say, and ultimately NASA National owns CMC and therefore approves all of our rules. That said as the National Director the buck stops with me and I'll be the one put through the wringer if this fails miserably. I'm good with that as I think this is the best we can do given the constraints we have to live with. In the interim, (Eric) drivers will exercise their power: voting with their wallets. I would expect most of our S197 guys (five) to eventually understand that a change was needed, and that they'll continue to come race CMC because this is the best damn ammateur level racing anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 For the record the testing we did do with 235s was not in an out of class car, thought it still wasnt a CMC2 spec S197. It was on the TX Region's 2011 champ's 4th gen with James Proctor at the wheel. Geez, I guess I need to change my signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 For the record the testing we did do with 235s was not in an out of class car, thought it still wasnt a CMC2 spec S197. It was on the TX Region's 2011 champ's 4th gen with James Proctor at the wheel. Geez, I guess I need to change my signature. You didn't get the memo? We DQ'ed you this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 28, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 LOL I meant to type 2009 but somehow it came out 2011...Sorry Michael! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 You can skew any data by looking at a limited set of results and using that as the basis for your argument. EXACTLY ROBERT! You got it!! Why havent you directed this to the cmc directors?!?! LOL. Did you just read how the tire size choice was chosen? Ahh, I was wanting to work on my rally skills anyways.. I'll have plenty of time each race after the tires are toasted after the first few hot laps... Can you hook a brother up with your Cassidy Tire sponsorship deal Rob? Its all good. Lets go race! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastntim Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I saw on my laps that Road Atlanta seemed to be favor the new Mustangs this last weekend as they took all spots on the podium. http://www.mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=2146396&perclass=1 Maybe we have a little more data to back up the Directors decision for 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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