CMC#11 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 In 2011, for TX, CA, CO, + Great Lakes results were as follows: S197 - 4 wins Fox - 11 wins SN95/99 - 8 wins 3rd gen - 14 wins 4th gen - 42 wins S197, Fox, SN95/99, and 3rd gen combined = 37 wins 4th gen = 42 wins Does that seem equal to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 How many Fox's are there? 3rd gens? 4th gens? By your logic, here in Tx only 1 Fox has won any races. We should allow adjustments to Fox's ASAP. Never mind that we only have 2 total. GL's is very heavy w/ 3rd gens, CO w/ 4th gens, Lets use peak performace of a platform as a means of measurement. I don't place "wins" in any performace catagory. Lap times, lateral G's, accell G's, decell G's...... things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 How many Fox's are there? 3rd gens? 4th gens? By your logic, here in Tx only 1 Fox has won any races. We should allow adjustments to Fox's ASAP. Never mind that we only have 2 total. GL's is very heavy w/ 3rd gens, CO w/ 4th gens, Lets use peak performace of a platform as a means of measurement. I don't place "wins" in any performace catagory. Lap times, lateral G's, accell G's, decell G's...... things like that. I am not asking for adjustments for the Fox. I am asking that the 4th gen be brought down to the same level as the other platforms. You say the GL's is very heavy w/ 3rd gens: 3rd gens won 3 races in the Great Lakes and 4th gens won 5 races. Strange how a region that has the majority of drivers being in a 3rd gen had more wins by a 4th gen. You think my intentions are to make the Fox faster but it is not!!! All I am asking for is for each platform to be EQUAL. Wouldn't everyone want that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Equal how? Equal from the perspective of a ruler or equal from the perspective of on track performance? I need to know cause those are two very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Make a Fox faster or slow down the other platforms is really the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 In 2011, for TX, CA, CO, + Great Lakes results were as follows:S197 - 4 wins Fox - 11 wins SN95/99 - 8 wins 3rd gen - 14 wins 4th gen - 42 wins S197, Fox, SN95/99, and 3rd gen combined = 37 wins 4th gen = 42 wins Does that seem equal to you? Nope-looks like the S197 is the one that really needs the help Just think how diffferent the numbers in Texas might look if you still had Kellam in an SN95 or Burch/Wirtz in a 3rd Gen. Wins isn't the only thing that matters nor is the performance of the car the most important ingredient to me its the driver and their prep/setup/testing. I undertand Mosty's issue with why does the 4th Gen need the extra front track width and don't like that the Fox's have to do all the body modifications to increase their's. My question is where is the information about lateral G's, accell G's, and decell G's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Equal how? Equal from the perspective of a ruler or equal from the perspective of on track performance? I need to know cause those are two very different things. There are reasons the 4th gen has more wins that the other platforms combined. One is that there are a lot of 4th gens racing throughout the nation. Ask yourself this question. Why are there so many 4th gens racing? Production numbers show there were way more 3rd gens built than 4th gens. Way more Mustangs built than 4th gens. Yet 4th gens dominate many regions. I do credit the number of 4th gens to people like yourself building them and pushing them in TX, Tommy Cody and Raybob building and pushing them in CO. When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 My question is where is the information about lateral G's, accell G's, and decell G's? I'm with you on this one BL. What info came from the pucks we used to put on the cars. They obviously showed the S197 had a big advantage so they made changes. Why can't we all see the info gleaned from the pucks and why did we stop using them? No names of drivers, just info compiled from the GPS. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/corrections.htm Wow! That's me in my old DSG 03 Lightning at TWS with the drivers edge on Tim's page. This is where I got my first hit on the Crack pipe. That is either Wayne or Richard P. with me. I forgot about this site. Tim has a bunch of good info on this site. JJ Dang-looks like you were just as slow back then as you are now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Ask yourself this question. Why are there so many 4th gens racing? I think the easy answer to this is costs. I do agree that it is cheaper to build a 4th gen than probably a 3rd gen and definitely a Mustang. We can't help the fact that Ford built Farimonts for ever and require a lot of work to make them perform. None of us could hardly touch Kellam in his car when he was racing or Wirtz and Burch when they were running. Like someone said a while back...there is disparity among the same platform... How do you plan to equal this difference is speed and wins among a single platform? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/suspension/corrections.htm Wow! That's me in my old DSG 03 Lightning at TWS with the drivers edge on Tim's page. This is where I got my first hit on the Crack pipe. That is either Wayne or Richard P. with me. I forgot about this site. Tim has a bunch of good info on this site. JJ Dang-looks like you were just as slow back then as you are now That was Richard's fault. Do you have any idea what it does to you when your instructor "punts" you? Refuses to ride with you? JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Keeping this thread off-topic... 4th gens have regularly been coming in at the top of the heap in the RM region this year. Here is my speculation as to why: 1. There are a lot of them. 2. Not all of the 4th gens in the RM region are regularly finishing at the top, but the ones that are, are well prepared. 3. LS1 engines with 6 speeds RULE! It's clear the CMC series car count has benefited as a whole from the AI drivers who have jumped ship because they couldn't keep up with the spending they saw as being required in AI. However, with levels of spending and preparation that were only formerly showing up in AI now showing up in CMC, we have a new batch of CMC racers with "new" cars that are competitive at the highest level right out of the box. Good for them. But that's bad for the rest of us who are still trying to afford and accomplish changes from CMC to CMC1/CMC2 back to CMC. We understand the reason we are still several seconds per lap behind to the top finishers is because we lack the parts, testing, and tuning that is required to maximize our car. The lack of parity between platforms argument currently does not apply to us because we have not maximized our platform yet. But, it has also been more difficult to keep up with the series changes in a Fox. The folks I feel for are the ones who have built their non-4th-gen cars to the maximum of the rules and who have the experience as drivers to make it work who are now consistently finishing behind the new crop of well prepared 4th-gens. Those are the folks who have a leg to stand on in the lack of platform parity argument. So far the majority of those folks have not been very vocal. Like I mentioned previously, over the last couple of RM event weekends, drivers across several platforms have swapped rides during the CMC warmup sessions. With this type of cross-platform driver exposure, the strengths and weaknesses of the platforms, and individual car preparation, become clear. I think more folks ought to try this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Equal how? Equal from the perspective of a ruler or equal from the perspective of on track performance? I need to know cause those are two very different things. There are reasons the 4th gen has more wins that the other platforms combined. One is that there are a lot of 4th gens racing throughout the nation. Ask yourself this question. Why are there so many 4th gens racing? Production numbers show there were way more 3rd gens built than 4th gens. Way more Mustangs built than 4th gens. Yet 4th gens dominate many regions. I do credit the number of 4th gens to people like yourself building them and pushing them in TX, Tommy Cody and Raybob building and pushing them in CO. When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? If parity was the only factor in picking a car for CMC, I could answer "anyone you want". But it isn't. Do you like Fords or Chevy is a big one. Of the 2, whick ones do you know well if at all? If one needed to pick a car that was as close to CMC limits as possible right off the street, I would surely say 4th gen for the GM fans. Add to that the price point of the car (last produced in 2002 - 10 years ago!) and it is a win/win for the GM. The Fords are not as simple, but the SN-99 should be just as popular. Not sure why it isnt though. ANone wanting to build an older platform will likely need to round up alot of parts. That is a strike against the Fox and 3rd gens for sure and possibly the SN-95. I think the SN-95 is the best Ford to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 My question is where is the information about lateral G's, accell G's, and decell G's? I'm with you on this one BL. What info came from the pucks we used to put on the cars. They obviously showed the S197 had a big advantage so they made changes. Why can't we all see the info gleaned from the pucks and why did we stop using them? No names of drivers, just info compiled from the GPS. JJ That is a question that needs to be asked to the National Director. I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Equal how? Equal from the perspective of a ruler or equal from the perspective of on track performance? I need to know cause those are two very different things. There are reasons the 4th gen has more wins that the other platforms combined. One is that there are a lot of 4th gens racing throughout the nation. Ask yourself this question. Why are there so many 4th gens racing? Production numbers show there were way more 3rd gens built than 4th gens. Way more Mustangs built than 4th gens. Yet 4th gens dominate many regions. I do credit the number of 4th gens to people like yourself building them and pushing them in TX, Tommy Cody and Raybob building and pushing them in CO. When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? If parity was the only factor in picking a car for CMC, I could answer "anyone you want". But it isn't. Do you like Fords or Chevy is a big one. Of the 2, whick ones do you know well if at all? If one needed to pick a car that was as close to CMC limits as possible right off the street, I would surely say 4th gen for the GM fans. Add to that the price point of the car (last produced in 2002 - 10 years ago!) and it is a win/win for the GM. The Fords are not as simple, but the SN-99 should be just as popular. Not sure why it isnt though. ANone wanting to build an older platform will likely need to round up alot of parts. That is a strike against the Fox and 3rd gens for sure and possibly the SN-95. I think the SN-95 is the best Ford to start with. Let me rephrase... Assume each car can be built to their platform limit for the same amount of $$ and you could snap your fingers and have the finished product in front of you. Now... When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 I drove one of our regions sn-95's this weekend and Tommy drove a fox. We both came back saying the same thing, these things turn way better than our cars. And both had serious flaws on the engine side. I ran a second faster than the owner ever had, I'm not sure where Tommy ended up. The owner of the car I drove has repeatedly told me the series is broken yet his car is not even close to fully prepped? When I went to nationals last year and ran with the S-197's at Road Atlanta, I decided that those were great cars and I also decided to redouble my efforts on car prep to beat them. I could have given up on the 4th gen and built one of those. I wasn't ready at that time and it would have been disengenious for me to bitch about them at that time. We are going to throw everything at them this year and see where we land. Micheal I have ran against you several times and from my POV your car really works and you are one hell of a driver. I can't tell you how many times I have heard " I got a fox for free in a field" Guys didn't end up in thier cars by accident or at gun point. When I chose a 4th gen back in '06 it was because everybody here was running them, mostly in AI but still running them. We have learned so much about them along the way, mostly from guys like Glenn and Mitch. I know that the guys running in the front of our region are stupid serious about winning and leave nothing on the table. I don't really have a point to all of this other than to share my story and POV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Equal how? Equal from the perspective of a ruler or equal from the perspective of on track performance? I need to know cause those are two very different things. There are reasons the 4th gen has more wins that the other platforms combined. One is that there are a lot of 4th gens racing throughout the nation. Ask yourself this question. Why are there so many 4th gens racing? Production numbers show there were way more 3rd gens built than 4th gens. Way more Mustangs built than 4th gens. Yet 4th gens dominate many regions. I do credit the number of 4th gens to people like yourself building them and pushing them in TX, Tommy Cody and Raybob building and pushing them in CO. When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? If parity was the only factor in picking a car for CMC, I could answer "anyone you want". But it isn't. Do you like Fords or Chevy is a big one. Of the 2, whick ones do you know well if at all? If one needed to pick a car that was as close to CMC limits as possible right off the street, I would surely say 4th gen for the GM fans. Add to that the price point of the car (last produced in 2002 - 10 years ago!) and it is a win/win for the GM. The Fords are not as simple, but the SN-99 should be just as popular. Not sure why it isnt though. ANone wanting to build an older platform will likely need to round up alot of parts. That is a strike against the Fox and 3rd gens for sure and possibly the SN-95. I think the SN-95 is the best Ford to start with. Let me rephrase... Assume each car can be built to their platform limit for the same amount of $$ and you could snap your fingers and have the finished product in front of you. Now... When asked the question, "What platform is best to race in CMC?" the answer should be, "Which ever one you want." I wouldn't be able to give that answer, would you? Yes I would. You have beat me plenty. I've beat you plenty. Seems you have bested me as of late more than I have you. My car is the same as it has been since about 2007. Can you say that about yours? Did you get better or did the car get better as you modded it and max'ed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I agree with your points Cody (if you even had one ). I am just very passionate about this sport, my car, my driving, etc. I hope my points aren't coming off the wrong way but I feel strongly about an issue and wouldn't feel right if I didn't share my opinion. Same way as I have no issue with others pushing back on my opinions, they feel just as strongly about theirs. I understand every car is going to have its strength and weakness and that is what makes the series work. There is also a wide range of cost associated w/ building a Mustang vs. Camaro, 5.0L vs. 4.6L, LT1 vs 305, etc. I guess my main frustration is that when "I" look around I see a common platform rising to the top. I see people coming into the series going to that platform and I see others switching to that platform. I want people coming into the series to make their decision on what platform to race be based on their wants, not which platform gives them the best chance of winning. I know perception doesn't change rules but there is a lot of it floating around out there. *edit* Nice signature Glenn, haha. To answer your question, I'd hope both my car and my driving has gotten better since 07. I have changed many things since then. Not sure your point but I agree you and I have been pretty darn equal for a few years now. Except for Hallett, I hear you have troubles with the Bitch. Edited August 10, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I want people coming into the series to make their decision on what platform to race be based on their wants, not which platform gives them the best chance of winning. I agree w/ this 100%. I also think we have this now except the cost to get to equality is not equal. That just cannot be helped. Older platforms are the ones that get the short end of the stick in this area. Technology will always advance. You have a few options, keep w/ you got and mod along as you need to, or re-tool. If I had a Fox, I would have re-tooled to an SN-95 long ago. From what I know, it is just a chassis swap. A path forward to older platforms is a goal. It is far better than forcing ones hand to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I want people coming into the series to make their decision on what platform to race be based on their wants, not which platform gives them the best chance of winning. I agree w/ this 100%. I also think we have this now except the cost to get to equality is not equal. That just cannot be helped. Older platforms are the ones that get the short end of the stick in this area. Technology will always advance. You have a few options, keep w/ you got and mod along as you need to, or re-tool. If I had a Fox, I would have re-tooled to an SN-95 long ago. From what I know, it is just a chassis swap. A path forward to older platforms is a goal. It is far better than forcing ones hand to upgrade. If you had a Fox, why would you feel the need to move to an SN95? If they were equal there would be no advantage in changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 No fender mod's needed to fit 17's. Track width was set based off OEM fender clearance. That alone is enough for me. This would take no more than a $100 bare tub and $400 in cage tube and a couple weekends. You easily got that in fender mods to date and more yet to come. Are you now saying the Fox and SN-95 are not equal (performance wise)? I assume so since you said "IF". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 This would take no more than a $100 bare tub and $400 in cage tube and a couple weekends. WOW! I need to shop where you shop and I need to acquire some cage fabrication skills so I don't have to hire all that safety gear installation work done. Add another zero to the end of your numbers and I think that would be more realistic for most folks are able to find. edit: don't SN-95s still need a little fender massaging to get to max width? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Glenn, I have no problem b/w Fox + SN95. I just said "IF" b/c I thought you were saying they were not equal with the thought of switching to the SN95. From a $$ standpoint (and timewise), I'd much rather fabricate fender flares than build a new tub. Plus I have a tight bond with my old girl. I am very pleased w/ the time, $$, and final product of the fronts but now I need to tackle the rears. With what I want to do, I'm guessing to do it right will take about 10 hours / side. That'll give me a project for the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CF03GT Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) The owner of the car I drove has repeatedly told me the series is broken yet his car is not even close to fully prepped? Sounds all too familiar.. (didnt hear it from you, just heard it before myself) [/quote=supermac] When I went to nationals last year and ran with the S-197's at Road Atlanta, I decided that those were great cars and I also decided to redouble my efforts on car prep to beat them. I could have given up on the 4th gen and built one of those. I wasn't ready at that time and it would have been disengenious for me to bitch about them at that time. We are going to throw everything at them this year and see where we land. Cody, you were in contention for a win at Road Atlanta last year. Think that missed shift (that took you from 2nd to 4th place) is the only thing that kept you off top spots on the podium. Not your car. You and I were running w/in a 1/10th second there all weekend if I remember right. We were all still on 275's. Its going to be a battle of the 4th gens at the front this year at Nats.. It is the platform to "have". . I agree with Michaels (as well as most others I spoke with in the series) sentiments. But thats good news for the rest of us. The 4th gen guys will be on 235 tires by next season Edited August 11, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Seems appropriate here: http://aicmctexas.com/main/showthread.php?4391-Scientific-evaluation-of-Camaro-Mustang-performance-parity/page2 See post number 16 by Al F. Looking forward to folks thoughts on what they see in the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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