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wheelhopper

Looking for suspension info from the pros

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Tbaker95
Which spacer(s) do you use?

 

Spacers? Can you be more specific - wheel spacers, spring spacers?

 

 

Sorry, spring spacer, earlier you mentioned you use Hypercoil perch springs with a spacer.

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Adam Ginsberg
Sorry, spring spacer, earlier you mentioned you use Hypercoil perch springs with a spacer.

 

It's an AL spacer my teammate machined up to fit inside the factory upper spring pocket. They aren't "off the shelf".

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ShadowBolt
Hey Adam,

The set up I had that pushed/understeered like crazy was:

 

94 GT

Bilstein HD's

H/R Super Sports front and back

MM Panhard bar

MM CC Plates -3 deg, not sure about castor, in the middle

Full Cage

MM FLSFC

Diconnected stock front sway, and it helped some

Stock rear sway

255/40/17 NT05's, I plan to change to 275/40/17 R888's.

 

Keep in mind I have ordered/just received H/R Super Race front, and MM rear torque arm springs, the less stiff of the 2 they offer, or the "street" springs.

MM suggested I tighten up the front sway, and remove the rear.

 

Definitely reconnect the front bar. There are some Ford drivers that run without a PHB, but the majority use one to help keep the rear axle from moving around...something to keep in mind. Pull the rear bar.

 

If you can find a set of rear springs that are a lower rate than what you have, do it. I run 1150lb front springs with a set of H&R "Race" springs in the rear - not the "Super Race", just "Race". For a few years, it had Super's in the front and rear, but it pushed, so I installed the Race rears, and they've been there since.

 

Are you still using stock rubber bushings, front and rear? What RLCA's and RUCA's are you using?

 

Suspension setup is completely driver dependent - some prefer go-kart-like stiff, others want more compliance. It's all about finding what works for you.....and it will take some trial and error to figure that out.

 

Adam,

 

Are you able to run less negative camber with the 1150lb front springs? I tried 1000 lb. front springs in my Fox and never could get the push out of it. I have left the car I bought from Tony G alone (900/250) since it is about where I like it. I would like to be able to get away from having to run so much negative camber. As you know this cost me in tires and braking performance.

 

JJ

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Adam Ginsberg
Are you able to run less negative camber with the 1150lb front springs? I tried 1000 lb. front springs in my Fox and never could get the push out of it. I have left the car I bought from Tony G alone (900/250) since it is about where I like it. I would like to be able to get away from having to run so much negative camber. As you know this cost me in tires and braking performance.

 

No, I can't run less static negative camber (mine is set at 3.5 degrees, both sides), even with the higher rate front springs. The way the car is now, the front tires wear evenly across, so I leave it alone.

 

I can't recall if your car has a PHB or not, Jerry. If it doesn't have a PHB, the rear will move too much, IMO. FWIW, I've also NOT gone to the PM3L. Still running a very used set of factory UCA's, MM LCA's, Bils, and H&R Race springs in the back. Works good, loves me long time.

 

About the only push my car has now is a high speed one, and only at BW in "Riverside". For the most part, it's much better than it ever was.

 

Honestly, I don't see how running the higher static camber would "cost" you tire performance? If the tire is wearing evenly, and tire temps are even all the way across, then you're getting just about all you can out of them. As for braking, well, it's true you don't have as much contact patch on the ground vs. the tire being totally flat, but remember......everything we do with these cars is a compromise. Everything. If we didn't want to compromise, we'd all have tube-frame chassis race cars with ZZ4 crate engines.

 

PS - Jerry, when you changed front springs, did you change your front sway bar? Did you change the rear springs? Did you add/remove the rear bar? If all you did was change front springs, and nothing else, you had more tweaking to do.

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ShadowBolt
Are you able to run less negative camber with the 1150lb front springs? I tried 1000 lb. front springs in my Fox and never could get the push out of it. I have left the car I bought from Tony G alone (900/250) since it is about where I like it. I would like to be able to get away from having to run so much negative camber. As you know this cost me in tires and braking performance.

 

No, I can't run less static negative camber (mine is set at 3.5 degrees, both sides), even with the higher rate front springs. The way the car is now, the front tires wear evenly across, so I leave it alone.

 

I can't recall if your car has a PHB or not, Jerry. If it doesn't have a PHB, the rear will move too much, IMO. FWIW, I've also NOT gone to the PM3L. Still running a very used set of factory UCA's, MM LCA's, Bils, and H&R Race springs in the back. Works good, loves me long time.

 

About the only push my car has now is a high speed one, and only at BW in "Riverside". For the most part, it's much better than it ever was.

 

Honestly, I don't see how running the higher static camber would "cost" you tire performance? If the tire is wearing evenly, and tire temps are even all the way across, then you're getting just about all you can out of them. As for braking, well, it's true you don't have as much contact patch on the ground vs. the tire being totally flat, but remember......everything we do with these cars is a compromise. Everything. If we didn't want to compromise, we'd all have tube-frame chassis race cars with ZZ4 crate engines.

 

PS - Jerry, when you changed front springs, did you change your front sway bar? Did you change the rear springs? Did you add/remove the rear bar? If all you did was change front springs, and nothing else, you had more tweaking to do.

 

I do run a PB. I did change rear springs (300lbs) and went to the smallest front sway bar when I tried the 1000 lb. fronts but it still pushed. My issue with the 3.5 degrees of camber is we cord the tire on the extreme inside of the off side front tire (right front when running CCW, left front when running CW). I thought maybe if you could get the push out with the stiffer set-up that maybe you could run camber numbers like the Camaro guys do and not have this issue (plus better braking). I have a tire right now that was only run at ECR and TWS on the right front that still looks perfect except for the cord sticking out on the inside (extreme inside) just a very small line. I have to remember to keep moving tires around to keep this from happening. When you are making all those left turns only a very small area of the right front tire is touching the track (just the very inside).

 

JJ

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MHISSTC
I... ... went to the smallest front sway bar when I tried the 1000 lb. fronts but it still pushed.

 

Do you specifically mean the 25mm front sway bar? I believe various sources also refer to this as the 25.4mm, or the 1" bar from the '00-'04 V6s and the '94-'95 Cobra.

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Adam Ginsberg

It's possible that you didn't go down enough in rear spring rate. Did you remove the rear sway bar at that time, or was it not on the car?

 

Additionally, I can tell you from experience.....you may have to modify your driving style. When I made the changes to my car, I had to make some adjustments in my driving to suit the setup. Slightly slower entry speed, but I can get on the throttle much quicker, as the rear takes a nice set.

 

As for cording the inside edge of the front tire.....Cal Speedway is similar to TWS, although we stay on the banking a much great amount of time. We use ALL of the front straight, as well as NASCAR 1 and 2, but I've not experienced the type of cording problem you're describing. Follow this link to see what I mean about CS.

 

Simply put - you may need to take some camber out of that side to help save tires.

 

Just a few things to think about.

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Glenn
It's possible that you didn't go down enough in rear spring rate. Did you remove the rear sway bar at that time, or was it not on the car?

 

Additionally, I can tell you from experience.....you may have to modify your driving style. When I made the changes to my car, I had to make some adjustments in my driving to suit the setup. Slightly slower entry speed, but I can get on the throttle much quicker, as the rear takes a nice set.

 

As for cording the inside edge of the front tire.....Cal Speedway is similar to TWS, although we stay on the banking a much great amount of time. We use ALL of the front straight, as well as NASCAR 1 and 2, but I've not experienced the type of cording problem you're describing. Follow this link to see what I mean about CS.

 

Simply put - you may need to take some camber out of that side to help save tires.

 

Just a few things to think about.

 

If the car is pushing and you drop the rear rates (spring or sway bars) it will push more.

"The end w/ the least amount of grip will let go first."

If the front is pushing, it let go first. Does that mean the issue is up front? No, but rather the set-up is not balanced.

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wheelhopper

Just wanted to give an update.

 

I have my Super Race springs installed, with the Koni DA struts. I also opened up the holes a little in my strut towers to get some extra -camber. I got my hands on a set of SN95 control arms, but don't think I'll have a chance to install them before my VIR trip. I am signed up for open track before the race weekend to try and dial in the struts. I am also going to bring my factory sway bar, in case the Steeda HD bar is to stiff. I'll be doing the alignment next week. I'll update what the settings are with the factory fox arms, hoping for at least -3 camber.

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MHISSTC
I also opened up the holes a little in my strut towers to get some extra -camber.

 

Are you referring to the big holes in the tower the strut rod passes through, or the smaller ones the CC plates bolt to?

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wheelhopper

Both. I needed to open up the large hole, toward the back and in towards the engine compartment. The holes for the camber plates I simply ground out about a 1/4" toward the engine compartment. I did not remove a lot of metal, just enough to help out. I just picked up a set of Terminator control arms, but don't have time to install them by my Feb. 17 event.

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Glenn
Both. I needed to open up the large hole, toward the back and in towards the engine compartment. The holes for the camber plates I simply ground out about a 1/4" toward the engine compartment. I did not remove a lot of metal, just enough to help out. I just picked up a set of Terminator control arms, but don't have time to install them by my Feb. 17 event.

 

It would help if you had a signature that pointed out your car is not a CMC car (TT Class info?). This way folks do not assume these mods are legal for CMC.

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wheelhopper

I mentioned it at the beginning of the thread, but I went ahead and added a sig.

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Al F.

When say you're cording the inside, how long does this take to happen? I ask because 3.5 degrees of camber is not extreme in the mustang world and I dont hear of mustang guys having tire wear issues like that. Maybe the mustang guys are rotating and flipping their tires a lot more often, or maybe the understeer is very extreme here.

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matman03

I am sorry if I highjack this thread. I is not my intention and I hope the answer is quick.

 

I purchased a 95 Mustang CMC car that hs a set-up alot like what is mentioned in this thread. Mentioned earlier is a referrence to a redneck 3 link. What the heck is that?

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Al F.

The poor mans three link is running a mustang with an aftermarket panhard bar and effectively disabling one of the upper control arms by using pool noodle foam or something to that effect as bushings into it.

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matman03

Oh man! I will have to take a closer look. I have a MM panhard bar with what looked like factory uppers and lowers. I thought it was strange that the front was dialed in with poly urethane, Konis and race specs springs but the back had factory arms. Looks like I have homework tonight!

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Adam Ginsberg

FWIW, I'm not completely convinced the PM3L is the ultimate way to go, not to mention all the stress it puts on the chassis.

 

matman03 - you have a PM.

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wheelhopper

Update

 

I ran VIR a couple weekends ago with the stiffer springs and Koni struts. Unfortuneately I was not able to get a lot of negative camber dialed in.

 

The good:

The car felt very stable. I never thought the car felt like it was leaning before around turns, until I was on track with the Super Race springs. The change also did not have any ill affects with adding a bunch of over or understeer.

 

The bad:

my lap times actuall increased about 4 seconds, but i was using last years tires that have about 35-40 heat cycles on them. Also the car was not running at its prime.

 

As far as adjusting the Konis. I followed the guide that Koni has online. I ended up setting the compression 9 clicks from soft, which sounded high compared to what I have heard from other Mustang drivers using Konis. I also was not getting a skating affect at that point, which according to Koni means i should add another 3 clicks. The rebound was set 1.5 turns from soft and I was not getting a push affect, which again according to Koni means I should keep adding rebound.

 

Next event I will have newer tires and SN95 lower front control arms. So, I will be dialing in over 3 degrees of negative camber. Plus the car is going to be customed tuned, so hopefully is in top running condition.

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Al F.

You're making progress, though as you've found out if everything isnt stable the results will be suspect. Anyway you're headed in the right direction. Get some decent tires and reliable power and see where you are

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Tbaker95
Hey Adam,

The set up I had that pushed/understeered like crazy was:

 

94 GT

Bilstein HD's

H/R Super Sports front and back

MM Panhard bar

MM CC Plates -3 deg, not sure about castor, in the middle

Full Cage

MM FLSFC

Diconnected stock front sway, and it helped some

Stock rear sway

255/40/17 NT05's, I plan to change to 275/40/17 R888's.

 

Keep in mind I have ordered/just received H/R Super Race front, and MM rear torque arm springs, the less stiff of the 2 they offer, or the "street" springs.

MM suggested I tighten up the front sway, and remove the rear.

 

I appreciate your suggestions.

 

 

Hey Guys, I got all of the new stuff above installed, and finally got to go drive it. It turned in to the corner much better, and it helped my understeer problem, but there is still room for improvement. One of the guys I was running with said it looked like I still needed to go stiffer as the front was leaning over in the corners. I was surprised at this since I just went stiffer.

If you were me, would you try the Steeda front sway bar, or keep going stiffer with the front springs? Keep in mind I am more concerned with my understeer problem, than I am with it looking like it is leaning in the corners.

Edited by Guest

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wheelhopper

IMO the Super Sport springs are a street spring. They are not near stiff enough for serious OT use. I would move up to the H&R Race springs. You will be surprised at how the stiffer springs will control your car leaning when you would think that is the sway bars job.

 

I am still trying to dial in my Koni DA struts. I managed to knock a second off my time, but I am still 4 seconds away from my last years times. I'll be heading to Summit in a couple weeks where I will be shooting to run a 1:27.

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Tbaker95

Hi Wheelhopper, I appreciate the reply but I am not runnung Super Sports, I am running the H/RSuper Race Springs. I have only run them once but so far it is a serious improvement but I still need help with turn in.

I think I have the stiffest off the shelf spring they make with H/S Super Race, so I am wondering if I need to get some Hypercoils, or would the Steeda front sway bar help, or hurt what I am trying to do?

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wheelhopper

I was looking at the list of parts that was in the quote box regarding springs and did not notice the new springs listed. The Super Race should work great. I really like them.

 

If your are getting front end push/understeer you should try softer front sway bar or a stiffer rear. Maybe a V6 front bar.

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Tom P

Here's an update on my Fox notchback's handling and suspension.

 

The car had been understeering, plowing into turns this first season. The front had very little grip but the rear end traction and grip had not been a problem and never broke loose.

 

I wanted to improve the handling so I added the longer SN95 front control arms to increase negative camber and track width. Front width ended up at 71 1/4" with 16" wheels and camber set at -3.5 degrees.

 

The car's handling became extreme the opposite way. Oversteer. The car was doing 360s in a flash. Basically undriveable. I reduced the camber and checked toe alignment (good) but no improvement.

 

So I came back from the track and read all the suspension archives here and decided to change the following:

 

1. Switch to 200 pound rear springs. Down from 300 pounds.

2. Remove rear sway bar.

3. Set rear Tokicos on softest setting.

4. Experimented with tire pressures.

 

The result was excellent balance and predictability. At least from my Fox experience. This past weekend I had a car with plenty of front grip and no tendency for the rear to break free. I lowered my previous comparable track lap times from this year by almost 2 seconds and with a potential for even more improvement with a few more laps.

 

Here's the current setup.

 

Front:

 

SN95 spindles/control arms.

Adjustable camber/castor plates.

Camber @ 3 degrees.

900 pound springs

Track width @ 71 1/4".

OEM 1990 GT sway bar.

Tokicos, firm setting.

 

Rear:

 

Maximum Motorsports lower control arms.

FRPP upper control arms.

Maximum Motorsports Panhard bar.

200 pound springs

No sway bar.

Track width @ 69 1/2".

Tokicos, soft setting.

 

I'd still like to increase rear track width but that would probably require flares. It took a lot to get the front tires to clear without interference.

 

I'm always open to feedback or further suggestions.

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