Spencer Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Just needed some interpretation of the rules here, as far as what can be removed in the interior of the car for a rollcage install. I just put in the rear braces in my 2000 mustang GT. I had to cut the rear seat panel (outlined in red) for the brace to pass through and to give me a visual on where I was welding to the shock tower. I assume this would be considered as necessary for the install of safety devices as outlined in the rulebook? Also since the lower portion(outlined in the black box) is no longer used I can cut that out as well correct? Thanks -Spencer[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 So i take it that I can cut out the unused portion since no one objects? I guess this is a minor technicality but I tend to overthink everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBody383 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 So i take it that I can cut out the unused portion since no one objects? I guess this is a minor technicality but I tend to overthink everything Couldn't hurt to ask your local tech guy, but.. 7.8.8 Any unused interior brackets may be removed. There must be no remaining sharp edges. Remember that underhood stuff can only be unbolted, not cut out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I removed mine to install my bulk head I needed to due to my fuel cell. I don't think it makes a difference, but I don't make the rules, I just suggest them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted May 15, 2012 Members Share Posted May 15, 2012 Kind of hard to tell from that picture and I dont have a mustang handy to compare...let me see if I can dig up some other mustang pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Have we already forgotten that we covered this two years ago? The answer then was "no" to removing the rear seat back support panel. You are going to have to put the seat back brace back and make accommodations for the cage bars. http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3513&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bulkhead&start=45 There are a couple reference photos still up on that thread, but I'm sure up for more discussion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 so.. looks like I am going AI racing now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 The basic reason why I cut mine out was to install a bulk head for my fuel cell.. i wanted to make it look cleaner basically. now that my car is illegal for CMC maybe we should add this to the rule book so we don't have this problem in the future because I sure am not going out to a junk yard and cutting this out of a scrap car. I actually don't even know how to finish this post because of how fired up I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I actually didn't cut off the bottom just yet. [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 So... ...lets discuss. My take on the rules is they allow you to remove the following: 1. Anything that can be detached with the removal of a fastener. (seats, interior plastic panels, seatbelts, carpet, parking brake handle, etc.) That part is easy. 2. Any bracket used to attach anything removed in #1 that does not also compromise the structural integrity of the unibody. (metal tabs that interior plastic panels are screwed to in the hatch area, seatbelt mounts, etc.) 3. Anything that might stab or cut your body if you contact it. (similar to #2 like a parking brake or center console mounting tab, but also possibly any vestigial portion of the structure removed in #4?) 4. Any portion of the unit body structure and doors required to install safety equipment. (gutting doors and trimming the B-pillar to accommodate "NASCAR" door bars, or the rear seat "bulkhead" for the rear cage stays, and any remaining portion of the structure to comply with #3?) What I think the rules stop short of allowing is the removal of any portion of the interior structure that would compromise the structural integrity of the unibody structure strictly for the purpose of lightening the structure, or without the purpose of allowing installation of safety gear (a cage or racing seat mounting bracket). So if you follow the guidelines I've given above, then you have to determine if the factory rear seat bulkhead in an SN95 Mustang qualifies as a "bracket" which can then be removed, or if it is "structure" which can only be minimally trimmed to provide space for the cage installation. Then, if it is "structure", does the the vestigial portion of the factory bulkhead presents a hazard that should then be removed anyway? Similarly, can the package shelf in a fox coupe and SN95 be removed because it is merely a "bracket" designed to hold the seats and speakers in place, or is it a "structure" that strengthens the unit body construction of the car and allows a rear window to be securely installed in the car? This "structure" is not present in a fox hatchback or GM products, so how does that figure into it? Then on top of all that, can the factory rear seat bulkhead and rear package shelf be removed if it is replaced by a bulkhead for the purpose of separating a fuel cell from the driver compartment. All food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 The way I looked at it was, that package tray and back seat mount, was not doing anything for me. I took the speakers out and removed the rear seat, so technically it wasn't doing anything. now im not a structure engineer, but it didn't seem like it was doing much of anything anyways, and I added a bulk head, which was actually of a thicker metal. I did not gain or lose performance, did not lose weight, it only cost me for the material. at the end of the day, my package tray and back seat mount was REPLACED with BETTER and THICKER material, NOT for a performance gain but for SAFETY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ginsberg Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Rob - talk to your local series director (it should be Bryan White), and have him look it over. Don't drive over that cliff just yet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Todd Johnston is our series director for great lakes. Its cool if he okays it but what happens when I run nationals this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted May 24, 2012 Members Share Posted May 24, 2012 Digital memory is so much better than brain cells! And sorry its taken a few days to get back to this. So, as has been discussed in the past, that Mustang rear section is not a piece that can be removed. It can be trimmed to enable the tubes to go where you want, but not removed entirely. Thats pretty clear, barring future changes to rules. The question then becomes what to do. Little things like this are typically handled by discussing with the regional director and agreeing on a time frame to getting the car to compliance. We all go to junkyards at some point, right? If we were talking about a piece that is very difficult to find, or very expensive to obtain we could entertain alternatives. We've allowed guys to replace the missing weight from a gutted hood by adding steel to the leading underside until they wreck and need to replace the hood anyway, for example. As Glenn said, this is risky because everyone that looks at the car can walk away thinking that X is legal because they saw it on a car, and the problem perpetuates. In some cases its warranted, in some cases it isnt. Talk with with your Regional Director. He knows to discuss potential alternatives with the rest of the board if its anything he hasnt run across before and whatever the solution is gets written into the log book. That avoids trouble when visiting other regions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Since we're going down the slippery slope, the former AI car I'm turning into a CMC car has the center roof brace cut out. In place, it has a center halo bar made of 1.75x.120 DOM. By weight and measurement, it's about 3 times as heavy as the stamped steel piece it replaced. Would this cover the adding weight in place of something removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 ...what happens when I run nationals this year? Based on past results, you might be DQ'd, or you might podium finish. ...that Mustang rear section is not a piece that can be removed. It can be trimmed to enable the tubes to go where you want, but not removed entirely. Thats pretty clear, barring future changes to rules. hint, hint, hint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Since we're going down the slippery slope, the former AI car I'm turning into a CMC car has the center roof brace cut out. In place, it has a center halo bar made of 1.75x.120 DOM. By weight and measurement, it's about 3 times as heavy as the stamped steel piece it replaced. Would this cover the adding weight in place of something removed? That is a big CMC no-no. Got a pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Since we're going down the slippery slope, the former AI car I'm turning into a CMC car has the center roof brace cut out. With the transition of a lot of AI cars to CMC, I foresee a lot of potential tech items at Nationals this year involving common AI modifications that are not allowed in CMC. These may be difficult to police because you are going to need folks who are intimately familiar with the factory structure that is normally present in an unmodified car to notice if anything was removed that shouldn't have been. The example given is a good one. If you could claim the roof brace was cut out for the purpose of installing a cage bar you might get away with it. However, if the cage bar was added to replace something that was removed from the factory structure, just like the factory rear seat bulkhead and package tray in an SN95 Mustang, I'd say you're going to have to go to the junkyard and find a replacement. Incidentally, the last time I was in a junkyard looking for parts was years before NASA even existed, so I can sympathize for those who don't frequent them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 If you could claim the roof brace was cut out for the purpose of installing a cage bar you might get away with it. No you will not get away w/ it. The rules inthe NASA CCR are very clear about this. I see alot of effort being put into "top shelf" car building. I wish you guys would put that same effort into reading the rules. As for Nat's Tech.... A protest form can be filed at any time. Your fellow racers should know the cars beter than anyone. In all my years of being a Director, I normally will just allow folks to tell me what they think is not legal and I'll walkover and look w/out requiring paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 No you will not get away w/ it. The rules inthe NASA CCR are very clear about this. I'm sorry Glenn, what am I missing? I looked at the CCR again and I don't see which item it violates unless it's clear this bar's only intent is to add chassis stiffness. I need a picture too, because maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly what is meant by "center halo bar made of 1.75x.120 DOM". My initial thought was it was one of those front-to-back or diagonal convertible/T-top bars, but if it goes from side to side, I can see how that wouldn't exactly comply with the CMC rules, but it wouldn't exactly violate the CCR either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 The bar isn't the issue. The removal of the inner roof structure is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Todd Johnston is our series director for great lakes. Its cool if he okays it but what happens when I run nationals this year? Rob, unless I get a strong objection from other racers in the GL/MW regions, I have no problem with you temporarily running your car like this. Based on your performance at Mid-O in April, I do not anticipate this being an issue for anyone, but you never know. I have a hard time seeing anything in those pics. Let's take some good pictures at your next event and talk about this. I freely admit to not knowing 'stangs very much. I'll look at Dan Close's or Joe Sullivan's car for comparison and maybe take pics of those for reference. For nats, I have no doubt that questions will be raised and given what Al has said about not allowing removal, you'll probably be DQ'd if it's not in compliance by then. But let's see what you've really got and talk first before making any conclusions. Will you be at Grattan or Gingerman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I can tell everyone right now i will not run cmc at nationals just to be DQed. I do not mind adding weight to the car to fix this problem. It is a pain in the @$$ to put a stock piece back in there. I would have to basically buy a back half of another mustang to cut it out of only to be covered up by another piece of sheet metal. Honestly, if i never said anything on here, i would bet no one would have ever known it was out! Based on my performance at mid ohio with a car that had a huge miss at peak HP i stand a damn good chance to win. Another thing.... if i wasn't on these forums how would i ever know it was illegal? Wait until i do good. Someone bitches and then your DQed. Fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I can tell everyone right now i will not run cmc at nationals just to be DQed. I do not mind adding weight to the car to fix this problem. It is a pain in the @$$ to put a stock piece back in there. I would have to basically buy a back half of another mustang to cut it out of only to be covered up by another piece of sheet metal. Honestly, if i never said anything on here, i would bet no one would have ever known it was out! Based on my performance at mid ohio with a car that had a huge miss at peak HP i stand a damn good chance to win. Another thing.... if i wasn't on these forums how would i ever know it was illegal? Wait until i do good. Someone bitches and then your DQed. Fantastic. Rob, that's not what I meant. I hate it when posting on forums and sending the wrong message. Call me at 614-seven four six-7746 and we can talk. Let's find a solution before you give up on nats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'll try to get pictures next week when I'm back by the car, but it's not a huge deal. Remove 4lbs of cage and put 1.5lbs of roof back in? Break my heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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