CMC Wing Development - Am I Nuts? (likely)

[Glenn]

Does it matter?

[Steve91T]

If someone buys some aluminum, cuts and bends it into a simple spoiler and bolts it to the deck lid of the car, they then have to sell "ready to bolt on" spoilers for the next guy? That makes no sense.

 

I agree, parts are available at lowes, build your own. That makes it available to everyone who wants one.

[D Algozine]

Does it matter?

 

LOL, of course it does.

 

Can I build a wing for $700 or do I have to buy something complete for less then $700?

Its pretty vague

 

Hell, I think I bought the one on my mustang (photo several posts back) used for about $700 to $800. Don't remember exactly, too long ago. Not sure if it was a "retail source". Still don't know what that is. Walmart, Lowes, Ford racing, Jegs, Ebay stores , Craigslist....?

[CMC#11]

Too much confusion. Just remove wings from CMC and it will make thing much easier!

[Glenn]

So let’s take a nice long look at this before you guys get all twisted up over this.

 

The rule is pretty clear. I don't see any gray area.

 

7.5.5 Any rear spoiler/wing that fits the following criteria may be used:

1. A vertical line from every point on the spoiler/wing and end plates must intersect the car body/bumper cover when the car is on a level surface.

2. The maximum height of any point on the spoiler/wing from any point on the deck lid/rear hatch may not be greater than 12 inches.

3. The overall depth (leading edge to trailing edge) including end plates may not be more than 12 inches.

4. The spoiler/wing and mounts as installed must be readily available to the public from a retail source for less than $700.

5. The wing must be fixed for competition and may not be adjusted from the driver’s seat

 

At this point in time you guys seem to have issue w/ my interpretation of #4.

It clearly says the wing, as installed - not a pile of materials - must be readily available (ie - I order one, I get one) to the public (this includes any CMC racer) from a retail source for less than $700 ($699). I take this to mean that if you have a cool spoiler that looks like it works, and I don't have time to build one, I can get one from where you got one (yourself if you made it).

 

So let’s talk about the why....

Let’s say Racer X has access to all the great aero engineers at his place of employment (or is one of those engineers himself). He spends countless hours designing a wing. He has access to untold amounts of tooling and manufacturing equipment. This wing design uses less than $700 in materials and is the best thing since sliced bread. He is now unstoppable in CMC. Since Racer X is the only one in CMC that has this resource pool, he now has an unfair advantage since none of his fellow racers can get one from him or anyone else for under $700. Racer X has unaccounted for costs (engineering and manufacturing) that any other retail shop would have to account for, allowing Racer X to have the upper hand.

 

Now, if racer X does not want to account for his time and resources in his cost of his wing, I'm OK w/ that. But he will have to be OK w/ offering that same discount to his fellow racers - free labor and resources. The fellow racer only needs to pony up $700 for the material cost.

 

Now, on the other side of the coin.....

If I go down to Home Depot and buy a sheet of lexan, some aluminum angle, several turnbuckles and some assorted nuts and bolts, and build a spoiler that costs about $100 in materials and you want me to build you one, I would be glad to. It will cost you $699.99, but I'll do it. Most racers I know will tell me to pound sand and go build it themselves. That is fine, but they can buy one for under the target price. They just may not be willing to. It is not a smart business model, but I didn't build it to sell and get rich.

[Glenn]

Does it matter?

 

LOL, of course it does.

 

Why? Can a fellow racer not give you a correct answer? I know lotsof guys in Texas I race w/ that know the rules pretty well.

[Glenn]

Can I build a wing for $700 or do I have to buy something complete for less then $700?

Its pretty vague

 

Hell, I think I bought the one on my mustang (photo several posts back) used for about $700 to $800. Don't remember exactly, too long ago. Not sure if it was a "retail source". Still don't know what that is. Walmart, Lowes, Ford racing, Jegs, Ebay stores , Craigslist....?

 

4. The spoiler/wing and mounts as installed must be readily available to the public from a retail source for less than $700.

 

Sounds like the spoiler you have in those pics is not CMC legal.

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retail

[Steve91T]

I'm convinced, makes sense to me.

[D Algozine]

Can I build a wing for $700 or do I have to buy something complete for less then $700?

Its pretty vague

 

Hell, I think I bought the one on my mustang (photo several posts back) used for about $700 to $800. Don't remember exactly, too long ago. Not sure if it was a "retail source". Still don't know what that is. Walmart, Lowes, Ford racing, Jegs, Ebay stores , Craigslist....?

 

4. The spoiler/wing and mounts as installed must be readily available to the public from a retail source for less than $700.

 

Sounds like the spoiler you have in those pics is not CMC legal.

 

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retail

 

I'm not trying to get that particular wing deemed legal. Just trying to determine what is legal

Besides, I never said where I bought it from ???

[MHISSTC]

Too much confusion. Just remove wings from CMC and it will make thing much easier!

 

I like that.

[MHISSTC]

darn double post

[D Algozine]

Sorry, I'm just completely perplexed. But if i understand this correctly, as part of the "rules". If an individual obtains a legal wing/spoiler, they are also responsible for being able to provide that legal part to other racers? Just plain strange and unenforceable. How can I know that a parts supplier/fabricator is

1) going to continue to make it,

2) what they will charge in the future

3) They could even go out of business.

All of which will make my part illegal.

 

And as far as someone spending tens of thousands to develop the most perfect rear aero part, thats just silly and its BS. There is a basic shape and dimension that is used by nearly every sedan wing maker. There is no amount of money, to change that. There is not magic bullet. And if there are some off the charts, aero parts that are being developed in an R&D facility and are on the market, its pretty simple to make a DYI copy for a couple hundred dollars.

 

I tend to agree with others, either make wings illegal or set some simple and measurable dimensions as parameters.

 

I sort of get the dollar value limit, and it works for items like brake calipers, because no one can DYI make a set of calipers. But a few simple and inexpensive materials from Lowes and you can make a wing or a spoiler that is pretty efficient.

But just because i can build one, i have to build one for who ever wants one. Really, thats a rule ??

[Glenn]

Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

[ls168camaro]

Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

Smart move Glenn-I would be typing with red mist in my eyes about now.

[D Algozine]

Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

Smart move Glenn-I would be typing with red mist in my eyes about now.

 

Why ? Because I'm asking dump questions or because I don't understand the answers given?

 

Legal or Illegal ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251248602421?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Why or why not

[ls168camaro]

Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

Smart move Glenn-I would be typing with red mist in my eyes about now.

 

Why ? Because I'm asking dump questions or because I don't understand the answers given?

 

Legal or Illegal ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251248602421?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Why or why not

Because Glenn has endured this with countless others and has already answered your questions. He has provided you with the rules and an explanation. If you don't get it PM me your number and I will attempt to walk you through. I don't know you but feel like you are just yanking the chain.

 

Instead of wasting our time. Why don't you try to tell us why you think that wing is legal/illegal based on Rule 7.5.5 first?

[D Algozine]

Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

Smart move Glenn-I would be typing with red mist in my eyes about now.

 

Why ? Because I'm asking dump questions or because I don't understand the answers given?

 

Legal or Illegal ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251248602421?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Why or why not

Because Glenn has endured this with countless others and has already answered your questions. He has provided you with the rules and an explanation. If you don't get it PM me your number and I will attempt to walk you through. I don't know you but feel like you are just yanking the chain.

 

Instead of wasting our time. Why don't you try to tell us why you think that wing is legal/illegal based on Rule 7.5.5 first?

 

Does the class want wings or not?

If we can make one , can we do so? I don't have the time, energy or interest to make a part for someone, whenever I'm asked.

 

I started with some simple questions. But it seems like I've gotten some tongue and cheeky answers. So, I really don't understand the point of the rule or explanations.

 

Not wasting anyone's time .....I hope. If this has been discussed and clarified, then send me to the link of those threads. I did a search and the threads I found date back to 2009. It appears as though the rule has changed or been modified since then.

 

Is ebay a retail source? Glenn looked up the word retail, so I looked up "ebay" on wikipedia. "eBay.com, an online auction and shopping website in which people and businesses buy and sell a broad variety of goods and services worldwide" I think that qualifies for retail source.

The cost is less then $700 and anyone can buy one.

Besides it is vague. It appears to be open for interpretations.

 

I was thinking, just specify ...Exact materials, dimensions and height , or just make wings Illegal. Its that simple.

 

I'll just send it to my regional director and see what I'm told.

[Glenn]

My phone has not rung.......

So I don't take your intrest serious at this point in time.

[D Algozine]

My phone has not rung.......

So I don't take your intrest serious at this point in time.

 

I do appreciate your follow up, but I will discuss with Bryan, my director.

Thanks

[C6orGT]

So after reading the responses in this thread I am even more frustrated with this series than I was at Nationals in tech when things were quite absurd for amatuer racing. What I've learned from this thread is that my spoiler is illegal because if someone asks me to build a spoiler for them and I don't it will make mine illegal. I can't believe that that was the intention of the rule when it was scripted. If it was than essentially every homemade wing/spoiler is illegal based on whether someone will pay $699.99 for it or the current owner is willing to make them one. Mine is homemade, for less than $700 and meets the technical requirements of the rule. Mine was on the car when I bought it. Should I contact the previous six owners of the car to find out who built the spoiler so I can direct any potential customers to them? If this is the official interpretation of this rule the rule needs to be changed so a spoiler or wing can't be deemed illegal just because someone asks for you to build them one. How long do I have to provide them with one if they ask for one for $699.99?

 

Derek Wright

[Al F.]

Dave, dont get hung up on the "you have to make one for other drivers" point. Thats one way of looking at it. I think Glenn's explanation of why the rule is "as installed" is pretty damn good; there is considerable advantage to be gained compared to just laying a rectangular piece of metal across the back of the car. Just go look at an F1 car lol.

 

Now then, custom wings are allowed, but they need to be approved prior to competition. So, if you make your own wing, the directors will need to look at it and approve it.

[Glenn]

When you decide to use a homemade wing, you decided to go down that rabbit hole. If what you made is not readily available, then it is not legal. I just dont see the rub here.

 

And to answer a direct question......... I do not want wings in CMC. I also think they are pointless on a CMC car. If the wing makes you faster, you have set-up issues.

[ls168camaro]

So after reading the responses in this thread I am even more frustrated with this series than I was at Nationals in tech when things were quite absurd for amatuer racing. What I've learned from this thread is that my spoiler is illegal because if someone asks me to build a spoiler for them and I don't it will make mine illegal. I can't believe that that was the intention of the rule when it was scripted. If it was than essentially every homemade wing/spoiler is illegal based on whether someone will pay $699.99 for it or the current owner is willing to make them one. Mine is homemade, for less than $700 and meets the technical requirements of the rule. Mine was on the car when I bought it. Should I contact the previous six owners of the car to find out who built the spoiler so I can direct any potential customers to them? If this is the official interpretation of this rule the rule needs to be changed so a spoiler or wing can't be deemed illegal just because someone asks for you to build them one. How long do I have to provide them with one if they ask for one for $699.99?

Derek Wright

Doesn't matter what was on the car before you bought it or that the guy told you he made it for less than $700. Should i still be able to run the tuned computer that was in my car when i bought it? Doesn't matter if the Easter bunny left it on your doorstep. It has to meet all the requirements not just the technical ones. The rule states that if every cmc driver that wants one can't buy it as installed for less than $700 then it is illegal. This is a class that is meant to be fair without any magic part to give someone an advantage. If you are looking at the rulebook trying to find a part to have an advantage over another racer then you are in the wrong class.

[soundguydave1548534741]

Doesn't matter what was on the car before you bought it or that the guy told you he made it for less than $700. Should i still be able to run the tuned computer that was in my car when i bought it? Doesn't matter if the Easter bunny left it on your doorstep.

 

I agree with you 100% here. I know Derek's car, and what he has is a simple spoiler, nicely executed, with an aggregate cost WELL under the $700 cap, and it's NOT a wing. I think we should ban ALL non-stock aero aids, personally. No wings, no spoilers, no air dams, nothing, unless it came from the factory that way, and unless you're using factory parts.

 

It has to meet all the requirements not just the technical ones. The rule states that if every cmc driver that wants one can't buy it as installed for less than $700 then it is illegal.

 

 

 

 

I think Dave's frustration here is not necessarily the rule itself, but the somewhat arbitrary way that the rulebook appears to have been written. Some of it is really pretty ludicrous, when you step back and take a good look at things. Want a diff cover with fill and drain plugs? Fabricate. Want to run adjustable spring perches up front or corner-weight the car? Fabricate. Then you get to the wing rule, and it's essentially saying that you can NOT fabricate, unless you're willing to supply the same to every CMC competitor, FOREVER into the future, or have your part deemed illegal.

 

The stated purpose of this is to prevent somebody with deep pockets from essentially home-brewing a pro-level wing, and thus out-spending the competition. Fine, I get that. Then use the same metric to look at the diff cover and spring perch issues. Diff cover: I don't weld, so by the time I PAY somebody to take my cover, drill the hole, weld in the bung, then paint it, it will cost more than an aftermarket cover with the facilities already in place. Spring perch: I don't have a machine shop at my disposal, nor do I know a machinist well enough to get gratis work. So, for me, it would cost MORE to fabricate the assorted shims necessary to set the car up (legally, within the rules) than it would if I could just throw sleeves on the struts, or even pop in a set of adjusters (spring perch/adapters). What's that you say? Adjusters are legal, as long as they aren't adjustable? But they have a minimum variance spec written into the rule set, so we're back to shims again to do the job right. Does anybody beside me (and probably Derek and Dave) see the inconsistency here? And apparently, this is all in the name of cost-containment, even though it does the exact opposite.

 

I don't think this is a case of "AI Lite," or "find another series if you don't like the rulebook," I for one am simply trying to understand the real basis behind the ruleset, and every time I think I have it half-way figured out, something like this pops up.

 

This is a class that is meant to be fair without any magic part to give someone an advantage. If you are looking at the rulebook trying to find a part to have an advantage over another racer then you are in the wrong class.

 

Respectfully, I think we have to disagree here. With the way the rules are laid out, there are no magic parts, and that's a good thing. I think the book is a little tight, though, on some fairly common-sense points. The diff covers and spring perches are two apparent hot-buttons, but there are a pretty wide variety of rules in the book that seem to have been written from a pretty narrow approach. If, only for example, I were to build another motor (302 Ford), why would the rule book REQUIRE me to use the most flimsy, likely to self-destruct engine block available? Because a junkyard Explorer block is cheaper than a World Products or Ford Motorsports 4-bolt main iron block? Why restrict the crankshaft to a 50-oz imbalance piece that is essentially allergic to higher RPM duty?

 

Please, help me understand the underlying logic behind this kind of stuff in the rule book. I've looked at it from so many angles, so many times, it just makes my head hurt.

[D Algozine]

So after reading the responses in this thread I am even more frustrated with this series than I was at Nationals in tech when things were quite absurd for amatuer racing. What I've learned from this thread is that my spoiler is illegal because if someone asks me to build a spoiler for them and I don't it will make mine illegal. I can't believe that that was the intention of the rule when it was scripted. If it was than essentially every homemade wing/spoiler is illegal based on whether someone will pay $699.99 for it or the current owner is willing to make them one. Mine is homemade, for less than $700 and meets the technical requirements of the rule. Mine was on the car when I bought it. Should I contact the previous six owners of the car to find out who built the spoiler so I can direct any potential customers to them? If this is the official interpretation of this rule the rule needs to be changed so a spoiler or wing can't be deemed illegal just because someone asks for you to build them one. How long do I have to provide them with one if they ask for one for $699.99?

Derek Wright

Doesn't matter what was on the car before you bought it or that the guy told you he made it for less than $700. Should i still be able to run the tuned computer that was in my car when i bought it? Doesn't matter if the Easter bunny left it on your doorstep. It has to meet all the requirements not just the technical ones. The rule states that if every cmc driver that wants one can't buy it as installed for less than $700 then it is illegal. This is a class that is meant to be fair without any magic part to give someone an advantage. If you are looking at the rulebook trying to find a part to have an advantage over another racer then you are in the wrong class.

 

No one is looking for loop holes. Just looking for clarification on a rule. So, far, still not clear.

Regarding Dereks situation. How the hell is he supposed to know where or who built or fabricated his spoiler? And how does he or anyone else know if another can be made, how long it will take, how much it will cost now?

Makes no sense. It should either be legal or illegal, regardless of who, when or where?