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CMC Wing Development - Am I Nuts? (likely)


Smike

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Dave, dont get hung up on the "you have to make one for other drivers" point. Thats one way of looking at it. I think Glenn's explanation of why the rule is "as installed" is pretty damn good; there is considerable advantage to be gained compared to just laying a rectangular piece of metal across the back of the car. Just go look at an F1 car lol.

 

Now then, custom wings are allowed, but they need to be approved prior to competition. So, if you make your own wing, the directors will need to look at it and approve it.

 

Make it first and then find out if its legal?

Or explain all the details of the built, materials, dimensions, height...ect?

Why can't I read the rules and know what to do, or not to do?

What are the parameters that are used to decide if its legal or not, then we all know what to do?

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I think Dave's frustration here is not necessarily the rule itself, but the somewhat arbitrary way that the rulebook appears to have been written. Some of it is really pretty ludicrous, when you step back and take a good look at things. Want a diff cover with fill and drain plugs? Fabricate. Want to run adjustable spring perches up front or corner-weight the car? Fabricate. Then you get to the wing rule, and it's essentially saying that you can NOT fabricate, unless you're willing to supply the same to every CMC competitor, FOREVER into the future, or have your part deemed illegal.

 

I don't think this is a case of "AI Lite," or "find another series if you don't like the rulebook," I for one am simply trying to understand the real basis behind the ruleset, and every time I think I have it half-way figured out, something like this pops up.

 

Please, help me understand the underlying logic behind this kind of stuff in the rule book. I've looked at it from so many angles, so many times, it just makes my head hurt.

 

Add to this the inability to properly brace a chassis and other suspension components, which leads to fatigue and premature failure. All in the name of keeping costs down. See what you did Dave L, now I'm off on a tangent. Just for the record, I'm not looking to skirt the rules or find loop holes. But if a wing is legal, despite others opinion about their necessity , I would like to know.

 

Regarding comments about searching thru the rules for loops holes. How about clarification and consistently, as Derek stated, the cluster at Nationals was goofy.

 

What racer, does not want to build a car to the rule set. If you claim that you don't, then your lying or just not concerned with being competitive.

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Dave, I'm not sure what parameters you'd need other than whats in there. If your wing meets the dimensional requirements, and can be replicated by the average guy with hand tools in their garage (say by manually riveting and bending a sheet of aluminum around two tubes of aluminum that serve as leading and trailing edge) then I think it'd be pretty easy to justify a cost of under $700. If its hand laid carbon fiber around a foam core with aluminum bulkheads and an adjustable titanum gurney flap I think it'd be pretty easy to rule it out. Yes, it may cost YOU next to nothing, but since the average racer doesnt have a CNC mill, a hot wire machine, and an autoclave in their garage it'd cost them a bundle. They'd have to rely on a machine shop to make one off parts, and good luck getting custom composite work done cheap. If you've never estimated fabrication costs then take your design to a machine shop and get a quote.

 

The only way to make things absolutely clear is to make a spec series. CMC was never, and will never be a spec series. That wasnt the purpose. The thought that someone could read a 20 page book and know absolutely everything there is to building one of these cars is not realistic either. The cars and variety of options are just too complex. Every year we edit rules to try and make them clearer to the reader. Every year someone comes up with questions that havent been asked before. I dont see that cycle ending in spite of the fact that its been ongoing for over 15yrs.

 

Lastly, any time a line is drawn in the sand, be it in a spec series or otherwise, you can argue why here and not there. Why do SM cars have to keep their heater cores? Why cant AI cars change the rear upper shock mount given damping, spring rates, CG, and F/R balance are unlimited? Why 9.5" wheels instead of 9" wheels in CMC? Why 267hp instead of 260hp? All of those decisions are arbitrary, but that doesnt mean random. Some are more logical than others I'll admit, and some are better than others at achieving their goal...but they all have their purpose.

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Al, thanks for the clarification.

I think I better understand.

My opinion...... By including some of what you just explained, or a cleaned up version in the rules, would go a long way. Such as, if DYI, Aluminum or fiberglass only, no carbon fiber, no CNC work,.. .etc

 

I understand not wanting $3000 wings in the class, and I agree. But there is very little difference in inefficiency from a DYI, which could be a fiberglass copy, or a carbon fiber $3k wing.

My interpretation, and some of the feedback was no wings. To which I say, why doesn't it just say,"no wings"

 

I wasn't looking for a change or a loop hole. Just wanted some real direction. I saw this thread and thought it was a good place to ask.

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I understand. Its completely normal for racers to want to be right on the edge! For the record, "no wings" has been submitted as an RCR and discussed in depth and more than once. Since we've had rear wings since the beginning, we've reeled in what you can do with the wing, but have never gotten enough support to get rid of them altogether. Lots of guys have them and like them. I think a lot has to do with where you race and whether or not the fast guys have them.

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I just updated my Estée Lauder acrylic shelf spoiler. It's available to anyone for $599 (pre season discount). PayPal to my address with the note "smells fast"...

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I just updated my Estée Lauder acrylic shelf spoiler. It's available to anyone for $599 (pre season discount). PayPal to my address with the note "smells fast"...

 

Does that include free shipping or is there a different promo code?

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A few comments......

The wing is not the only part listed in the CMC rules where a price limit is established and that it must be available from a retail source for under $XXX.

Those other items can be made by anyone w/ access to a facility that has the tools to do so (at work or home or a business they own). Those items have the same expectation placed on them that the wing has on it.

If I build my own calipers out of some exotic material w/ special pistons and things that say bling, and I come to the track telling folks they are under the price limit, I better be willing to make and sell them for anyone who wants to plunk down the cash. If I'm not, then they are not legal. Period.

 

Now I get the whole issue of buying a car w/ a spoiler or wing on it and not knowing the origin of that part. That cannot be a reason for it to be allowed to skirt the rules. If we allow that, we may as well allow me to buy some nice Alcon 4 pot calipers and machine off the PN and company logo and tell you guys "Hey, they were on the car when I got it!"

"I don't know nothing, so they must be legal!"

The same can be said for shocks. I can play dumb and say I don't know what I have, and by your logic, I can run them. That is not what we want. We would rather draw the line on the legal side of the rule.

 

In all of the above examples (including the wing) a protest can be filed and an investigation will be started. If the retail source cannot be provided on a part that is required to be available from a retail source, then the part is illegal. EVEN IF IT WAS ON THE CAR WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHERE IT CAME FROM! If you made the part, you accepted the retail source requirement - no if's and's or but's.

 

 

So not one time in any of my posts, in the rules, or anywhere I can find where anyone said "no wings". Do I want them in CMC? - no. Can you run one? - Yes, as long as it follows the letter of the rules.

 

 

 

I'll provide another example where the rule was clear (or so we thought) and it turned out to allow what the rules intended to not allow.

The rules say you are required to run pump gas. I see pump gas as any fuel found at typical gas stations (Exxon, Texaco, Quik Trip, Gas N Go, Shell) 83 to 93. Well once race tracks installed gas station style pumps and sold 104 and the like from a pump, that suddenly legalized 104 and other higher octane fuel. Since the fuel is pump gas, by the letter of the law, it is legal. The rules never intended to allow this. If it had, it would have said fuel octane rating is open. I don't see why any legal CMC motor needs higher than 93 (standard high grade here in TX). If your running 104, then I question the legality of your motor. There is just no need.

 

 

Now.... Back to the rules.

The below rule can protect you from allot of what I said above. If you don't want to be required to build wings/spoilers for those who want what you have, you can submit approval as required below.

3.6 Non-conforming Equipment

Any equipment that does not conform to the rules must have prior written approval by the CMC Board of Directors which must be kept with the car’s logbook at all times. For consideration, approval must be made, in writing, 30 days prior to the date of competition. It is the intention of this class not to allow any modifications that would increase the cost of competition.

Here you would have to provide proof that your wing did not cost more than $XXX (by listing the materials needed) and explaining your case as to why you should be allowed to run it. If the Directors agree that it is a simple home fab part and the materials costs do not place it above the limit, you will likely get the green light. If however we see that an engineering degree is required, or specialized tools the average garage would not have are needed to reproduce, etc.... you will likely not be allowed to use that part.

 

The next rule is pretty self explanatory. If you don't think you can provide this when asked, you better start looking. I got my ducks in a row.

3.12 Proof of Legality

It is the responsibility of the competitor to provide proof of legality of their car’s modifications or components to CMC Officials.

The above rule prevents the "I have no idea - it was on the car when I bought it." defense.

 

From the CCR:

17.5 Protests, Request for Action, and Appeals

17.5.1 Protests

Any entered driver may lodge a protest against another driver disputing the mechanical compliance of their

competition vehicle. To lodge a protest, the protestor shall obtain a “Protest Form†from Registration, or other

designated location, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with the Race Director. The Race

Director may accept the protest, may extend the time allowed, or may reject the protest. For the protest to be

valid, it must meet the following conditions:

1. Be filed within thirty (30) minutes of the end of the session.

2. Each part that is being protested must be named specifically.

3. Each part may be considered a separate protest, in terms of fees.

4. Each part listed shall be accompanied by the rule(s) number that it violates.

5. The title of the rulebook must be cited with each rule number.

6. Be accepted by the Race Director.

The Race Director reserves the right to modify these rules as cited in CCR section #21.1

 

17.7 Class Rule Compliance

Each competition vehicle must conform to a published set of rules for its class. Any competitor found to have

qualified or raced a competition vehicle found to have unauthorized modifications may be penalized. NASA

Impound Inspectors will determine legality of modifications to competition vehicles. Any modification(s) to

performance items, whether it is a performance advantage or not, will be termed “illegal,†and subject

to penalties. All illegal items become the property of NASA in their entirety. Performance items are those

items that, if modified, could potentially increase performance. For example, a missing headlight would not

necessarily be considered illegal, and normally, the competitor would be required to make corrections without

penalties. Class rules supersede rules found in the CCR anytime that there is a conflict.

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Can the next Director please take over.

Dave you can call me.

817-350-3542.

Smart move Glenn-I would be typing with red mist in my eyes about now.

 

Why ? Because I'm asking dump questions or because I don't understand the answers given?

 

Legal or Illegal ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251248602421?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Why or why not

 

I'm gonna say not legal. You can take the risk and buy it as it certainly comes in under the price point for this one purchase. Is there a 2nd one out there? There would need to be in case someone wanted to run what you have. If that is the only one that can be found, or found for under $700, not legal once a 2nd person wants it. My bet is if I went to the company who fab'ed these for NASCAR to order one, it would be a couple grand. Certainly over $700.

Now, we do raise the price points of those parts w/ listed limits from time to time. So if you buy something in 2013 under the limit, and in 2014 that same part goes over the limit, we will raise the limit to match the increase.

Shocks have done this a couple times over the years. I expect calipers will too.

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Clarification (repeat)

Any type of spoiler or wing, even if made from carbon fiber can be DYI for a few hundred bucks. Not the case for shocks, or calipers, so using cost for these items makes perfect sence.

Bottom line, my input, don't use cost as the limiting factor for something that can be easily fabricated with a couple hundred in simple parts.

And once again, there is no magic bullet for an efficient spoiler or wing. It's a simple readily available shape that can be replicated cheaply. You can use a CNC , make it from CF or any other material , and it still performs very similar to anything DYI

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Clarification (repeat)

Any type of spoiler or wing, even if made from carbon fiber can be DYI for a few hundred bucks. Not the case for shocks, or calipers, so using cost for these items makes perfect sence.

Bottom line, my input, don't use cost as the limiting factor for something that can be easily fabricated with a couple hundred in simple parts.

And once again, there is no magic bullet for an efficient spoiler or wing. It's a simple readily available shape that can be replicated cheaply. You can use a CNC , make it from CF or any other material , and it still performs very similar to anything DYI

 

The above post of mine has given you everything you need to run the proposed senario of yours above. If what I've posted and what Al has posted in this thread isn't good enough for you, then there is no answer that will work for you.

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Easy Glenn, Dave is just trying to understand better.

 

Dave, I hear you, but I dont agree that any type of wing can be DYI. The material cost may be minimal, but the tools and skills to work them are not. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

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And once again, there is no magic bullet for an efficient spoiler or wing. It's a simple readily available shape that can be replicated cheaply. You can use a CNC , make it from CF or any other material , and it still performs very similar to anything DYI

 

This comment has been bothering me. I justhad to reply to it. Are you saying that there is only one shape of airfoil used for wings?

I'm no fuild dynamics engineer...... but.......

This link sure does lead me to think your wrong.

http://www.google.com/search?q=airfoil+design&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=LCFPUYrvMof2rAH98QE&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1365&bih=853

 

http://airfoiltools.com/search/index

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Glenn,

Bringing brakes and shocks into the discussion doesn't make sense to me. It's pretty apparent who the manufacturer of the brakes and shocks are and it is relatively easy to determine if they are legal. It's also pretty apparent that someone can't build there own brake caliper and shock package for the dollar bogey in the rule book.

 

That's simply not the case with the wing/spoiler rules and dollar bogey. I haven't seen to many cmc cars with homemade wings so I'm going to focus on spoilers. I've seen many cmc cars with homemade spoilers and I'm pretty sure almost all of them have less than $200 worth of hardware purchased from a retail source.

 

I'm sure almost all the people that have made there own spoiler didn't make it with the thought of supplying it for retail consumption to other competitors. With this being said my conclusion from the current rule as written and your explanation of the rule is that all homemade spoilers and wings are illegal because technically they are not available for retail consumption for less than $700. I suppose somebody could obtain a FEIN number from the government, setup a website and start a business selling spoilers and wings for CMC cars but I'm pretty sure they won't stay in business for very long.

 

My point is I believe the intent of the rule should be that the components to build a wing or spoiler should be readily available from a retail source for less than $700, not that anyone that builds their own has to supply them to others for less than $700. As you posted previously no one would pay that much for one.

 

If the intent of the rule is exactly how it's written then my only conclusion is that homemade = illegal.

 

Cheers

Derek

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It's also pretty apparent that someone can't build there own brake caliper and shock package for the dollar bogey in the rule book.

 

You could not be more wrong. There is at least one CMC racer who has a business where he fabs and assebles rockets for NASA to put things into space.

There is another who has a crew person who is an engineer for NASA.

 

Don't underestimate the willingness of a fellow racer to put a $1000 in materials into a pair of shocks they made on a CNC. If they do, they will have to offer up the same parts to all racers who will pay for them.

 

I haven't seen to many cmc cars with homemade wings so I'm going to focus on spoilers. I've seen many cmc cars with homemade spoilers and I'm pretty sure almost all of them have less than $200 worth of hardware purchased from a retail source.

I agree w/ this. So take the $200 for parts, add in the value of your time, and add to the racing budget. In this case, if you don't want to make them, ask $699.99 for it. I don't think you will have many takers (if any). If it really is a simple home fab job, they will likely do it themselves.

I could build my own for $1. But I don't want to make them. I'll ask $699.99 for it and go into it knowing I'll not have any takers. If for some reason I get one guy who wants it, I'll make it or take it off. If I make it, I'll put $698.99 in my pocket for my time. That is some good coin for a days work. The opposite is true. If it cost me $698.99 in parts. I can run it, but I'll have to make one if another racer is willing to buy it and pocket my $1 profit. Not so appealing there. Is the gain in track performance worth making spoilers/wings for a $1 profit? Not to me. I would find another solution. The rule requires a retail source. If you want the rule changed - SUBMITT AN RCR!

 

 

I'm sure almost all the people that have made there own spoiler didn't make it with the thought of supplying it for retail consumption to other competitors. With this being said my conclusion from the current rule as written and your explanation of the rule is that all homemade spoilers and wings are illegal because technically they are not available for retail consumption for less than $700.

 

I hope they read the rules for CMC2 prior to moving from CMC1. If they came on board after that, I'm sure they read the rules prior to entering an event. If they did, they accepted the requirement. The requirment didn't change as of last week. It's been there. More people may be informed today than they were last week, but the rule has not changed.

 

I suppose somebody could obtain a FEIN number from the government, setup a website and start a business selling spoilers and wings for CMC cars but I'm pretty sure they won't stay in business for very long.

 

Sort of explains why guys who build these things for a living charge what they do. We don't want crazy expensive wings, so we put a dollar limit in place. Otherwise we would have just said "any wing available from a retail source" w/ no dollar number attached.

 

My point is I believe the intent of the rule should be that the components to build a wing or spoiler should be readily available from a retail source for less than $700, not that anyone that builds their own has to supply them to others for less than $700. As you posted previously no one would pay that much for one.

And you can submit an RCR to change this. But at this point in time there is a "as installed" part of the rule. I can't lay a roll of carbon fiber and a can of resin on the deck of the car and expect it to do well as a wing. If I don't have the molds (cost money to built these as well) or the tools to vacuum form it, shape it then I still don't have a wing - I have a roll of carbon and a can of resin.

As for whether or not someone would pay the $700, take the risk. You may be right. If not, all they have to do is file a protest. Both partys are protected here. You can run one as long as you are not the only one who can have it, and they can have one if your not willing to remove it. Level playing field.

 

If the intent of the rule is exactly how it's written then my only conclusion is that homemade = illegal.

And let it be known that this is your conclusion. Its not a CMC rule. There may very well be others that share your POV. Great - submit an RCR. When the Diretors look at it for 2014 rules, it may or may not change.

For now, it is in black and white. I'm one of a number of Directors. The rule changes if a majority thinks it needs changed.

 

My opinion is wings should be removed. Spoilers are OK w/ limits. Airfoils need to go. I also think spoilers should be exempt fromthe $700 BS and retail source requirement.

I have said many times..... I don't always agree w/ the rules. I do however enforce them as they are written.

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So you guys bitch this much at the track? I hope not.

 

 

In my opinion the wings themselves aren't expensive, it's the testing that goes into them that runs the price up.

 

Whatever, I have a Blainfab spoiler in my 4th gen. It's simple, it's expensive, and it looks awesome. Everyone who wants rear downforce should get one and be done with it.

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So you guys bitch this much at the track? I hope not.

 

 

In my opinion the wings themselves aren't expensive, it's the testing that goes into them that runs the price up.

 

Whatever, I have a Blainfab spoiler in my 4th gen. It's simple, it's expensive, and it looks awesome. Everyone who wants rear downforce should get one and be done with it.

 

Also not available for Ford drivers...

 

odels available:

84 - 92 Camaro/Firebird

93 - 02 Camaro

93 - 97 Firebird TransAm

91 - 96 Corvette

86 - 92 Mazda RX7

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971226.Vol4Airfoil.gif

 

Not going sailing, not building a powered Aircraft, not building a wind turbine.

"Sedan race wing"

 

There are several well designed/engineered, amateur/pro, sedan based wings. Along with several websites that have done the design and analysis already, and have a proven shape. Or if you're a hands on guy, you can design it yourself.

There is a very basic and similar design for sedans. Some may be better then others, but not significantly. Or take the measurements from an existing sedan wing. There are hundreds in the paddock each race weekend.

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So you guys bitch this much at the track? I hope not.

 

 

In my opinion the wings themselves aren't expensive, it's the testing that goes into them that runs the price up.

 

Whatever, I have a Blainfab spoiler in my 4th gen. It's simple, it's expensive, and it looks awesome. Everyone who wants rear downforce should get one and be done with it.

 

Also not available for Ford drivers...

 

odels available:

84 - 92 Camaro/Firebird

93 - 02 Camaro

93 - 97 Firebird TransAm

91 - 96 Corvette

86 - 92 Mazda RX7

 

You likely should contact Blaine Fab. I saw one on Adam Ginsburg's Fox recently.

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971226.Vol4Airfoil.gif

 

Not going sailing, not building a powered Aircraft, not building a wind turbine.

"Sedan race wing"

 

There are several well designed/engineered, amateur/pro, sedan based wings. Along with several websites that have done the design and analysis already, and have a proven shape. Or if you're a hands on guy, you can design it yourself.

There is a very basic and similar design for sedans. Some may be better then others, but not significantly. Or take the measurements from an existing sedan wing. There are hundreds in the paddock each race weekend.

 

Wow......

Your just too smart for me.

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