D Algozine Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think this would very difficult to police. Short of tearing down a transmission, how do you check the the difference between a 1.3 and a 1.2 third gear accurately at the track? Besides what does OE mean. OE to that specific flatform and model year? And does that inculde back and front dating? Or does that mean any OE gear ratios available in any approved platform and any year. If strictly OE for spefic flatforms, than the old cars will get the short end. The 1993 M28 is the close ratio with good gear ratios, and the Gt 500 trans (TR6060) has the close ratio with great gears. I dont think there is anything available for the 3rd gen and Fox/SN cars in OE trans. This reminds me of the "stock" computer rule. Very difficult to check and there are so many years for each model, and some have multiple versions,per year. What is the stock tune? Sounds good in theory, but not sure about in practice. What if you buy a used car to build and the previous owner tweaked with the computer?. How do you know this? What do you put it back to? What exactly is the stock tune parameters, and for what year car and/or engine? Since the engine can be back dated / front dated, is the stock tune for the year of the car or engine? They vary from year to year and even within models. And how much is gained from tuning when the HP and TQ need to be a specific number? Maybe you can smooth out the middle, alittle? And how does this get checked at the track? If a carb'd car can tune with timing and jetting to smooth out the curves, then why not the EFI? But I digress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted October 19, 2012 Members Share Posted October 19, 2012 If approved, this would entail including a table in the rules that lists what ratios are allowed for what gear for all transmissions we allow. That doesnt mean all ratios available for a given trans (case in point T56). As far as policing, I dont think this is the type of thing you need to check very often. Its easy to do any time the car is on the dyno, or any time you care to take it around the track during station wagon laps at lunch with a GPS suction cupped to the windshield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 I was not aware that you can accurately check gear ratios with a dyno or GPS. Not sure what you mean (below) If approved, this would entail including a table in the rules that lists what ratios are allowed for what gear for all transmissions we allow. That doesnt mean all ratios available for a given trans (case in point T56). One of my points is: the GT 500 trans TR=6060 is legal. Would that mean that only the Tr6060 can use those gear ratio's? If so, certain cars will at a big disadvantage. I'm not really sure what the rule suggestion is supposed to be limiting or targeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave1548534741 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I think this is a cost-containment move, one that I can readily understand. If you don't limit the transmissions to "OE ratios," then you open the door to custom-built transmissions to maximize a particular car's powerband. There are enough different OE and legal aftermarket boxes out there that with careful selection, you can get a solid setup without having to resort to custom billet guts to get the ratios you want. GPS or the dyno will give you road speed, and the tach will give you engine RPM. Do a little math, and you will instantly know if the ratio matches up to an approved trans. I haven't heard of anybody monkeying around with this, but it doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I was not aware that you can accurately check gear ratios with a dyno or GPS. Not sure what you mean (below) If approved, this would entail including a table in the rules that lists what ratios are allowed for what gear for all transmissions we allow. That doesnt mean all ratios available for a given trans (case in point T56). One of my points is: the GT 500 trans TR=6060 is legal. Would that mean that only the Tr6060 can use those gear ratio's? If so, certain cars will at a big disadvantage. I'm not really sure what the rule suggestion is supposed to be limiting or targeting. Does the fact that each platform has advantages and disadvantages escape you? Do you not see the adjustments in the platform allowances either? So far, all your posts have been about why we need to allow X because of the S-197. Look at the rules w/ the S-197 out of the picture. Whether of not it will be racing w/ CMC in the future is up in the air. But all the other platforms have been very closely balanced. If the S-197 stays, it too will be balanced. W/ the S-197 out (if it happens), that trans is out too. The goal of the rule is to stop the spending in places the original rules writters thought none of the racers would venture into. To prevent this class from turning into a money class, we felt this needed to be pulled in some. I don't think this will affect anyone. Let me know if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 I asked the questions because i really don't know what the rule is suggesting. I also used the M28 trans as an example. Neither the M28 nor tr6060 is available to 302 engines or SBC engines. Perhaps some more examples of what it is supposed to do or not do would be helpful. IF the rule is supposed to eliminate custom, one off gear boxes, then I think most, if not all would be in favor, including me. But I'm not sure if thats the point. Or is it to stop guys from putting .8 5th gears in the 94-02 T56? Or is it to eliminate the aftermarket, readily available trans, such as TKO, and others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I don't think this will affect anyone. Let me know if I'm wrong. I already bought two of the close ratio T10s because no one seemed to care earlier in the year when I brought it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 IF the rule is supposed to eliminate custom, one off gear boxes, then I think most, if not all would be in favor, including me. But I'm not sure if thats the point. I was the one that recommended this RCR. (Not sure if anyone else did as well) My thought was exactly what you stated, to eliminate the "possibility" of someone spending thousands of $$ to custom build a transmission. The rules currently allow it and IMO that is completely outside the intent of CMC. On the other hand, if a transmission is legal per the rules and happens to have better ratios then have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I don't think this will affect anyone. Let me know if I'm wrong. I already bought two of the close ratio T10s because no one seemed to care earlier in the year when I brought it up. I told Al that the 4 speed needed to be added. I need data to provide to him for this. If you have any, let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 What data are you looking for? Ratios, part numbers, something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 I don't think this will affect anyone. Let me know if I'm wrong. I already bought two of the close ratio T10s because no one seemed to care earlier in the year when I brought it up. I may have rambled on unnecessarily, but I finally know what the point is. For what its worth, I'm in favor of stock and readily available aftermarket gear ratios. I'm also in favor of a rear end ratio limit . Not sure if 4.11 is the magic number. Anyone else have opinoins on the list of (19) suggestions? I really don't want to start another thread! Cut and pasted from Al's rules thread "11) Limit rear end ratio to 4.11 or lower" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I sure hope that's 4.11 and numerically lower. I'd hate to only have 4.11s, 4.56s, and 5.14s as an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted October 20, 2012 Members Share Posted October 20, 2012 Michael is right, the point is to eliminate the option of going out and spending a pile of money on custom gears, and therefore having a substantial competitive advantage. A little history...when CMC started, trans gears had to be "stock" other than 5th. You could put whatever 5th you wanted. At some point we opened it up to all gears, mostly because nobody thought this was a big deal and it was never enforced. Well...it is a big deal, if someone takes advantage of it, and we have grown in competitiveness to the point that someone will. So, as I said, there'd be a table in the rules stating what gear ratios are allowed in a given transmission. For example: T56 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open Those are the ratios from stock Mustang and Camaro boxes, and all we would have in the table for T56. The first is the GM m6 from 94+, the second is the GM M29 from 93, and the third is the Ford S197. So, if your car had a T56, it'd have to have one of those three combinations to be legal. Hope that helps clarify the methodology intended in the RCR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I don't think this will affect anyone. Let me know if I'm wrong. I already bought two of the close ratio T10s because no one seemed to care earlier in the year when I brought it up. Also - should have mentioned. OEM or otherwise listed trans only. You may want to drop Al a note w/ what you have and verify if it will be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smike Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 My two cents here. I have a T-45 OEM 98 GT trans with the stock gearing. Been doing a lot of research on this since 5th gear effectively hoses me on long straight tracks. The old optional 0.80 RR 5th is no longer available and making would cost me near $1000. Needless to say, not interested. Going beyond a 4.10 rear will get me into that 5th sooner and hurt me on more tracks. At this point, it's become an arms race. If almost everyone is running a T-56, TR6060, or M28 6-speed then everyone has to run that trans to be competitive. Looks like I'll be joining suit then at some point. Or the rule becomes - must run OEM transmission that came in said platform/car. Then will it be a monoculture of one vehicle? As for the rear gearing. If I had a better 5(6) then yeah, 4.30 or 4.56 or 5.40. With the 5-speed - 3.73 or 4.10. Can you really pick one gear for 5 and 6 speed cars? Or do we make a spec trans and gear for all? Same hp, tq, weight, trans, rear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Michael is right, the point is to eliminate the option of going out and spending a pile of money on custom gears, and therefore having a substantial competitive advantage. A little history...when CMC started, trans gears had to be "stock" other than 5th. You could put whatever 5th you wanted. At some point we opened it up to all gears, mostly because nobody thought this was a big deal and it was never enforced. Well...it is a big deal, if someone takes advantage of it, and we have grown in competitiveness to the point that someone will. So, as I said, there'd be a table in the rules stating what gear ratios are allowed in a given transmission. For example: T56 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open Those are the ratios from stock Mustang and Camaro boxes, and all we would have in the table for T56. The first is the GM m6 from 94+, the second is the GM M29 from 93, and the third is the Ford S197. So, if your car had a T56, it'd have to have one of those three combinations to be legal. Hope that helps clarify the methodology intended in the RCR. Makes perfect sense now. I'm in favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Michael is right, the point is to eliminate the option of going out and spending a pile of money on custom gears, and therefore having a substantial competitive advantage. A little history...when CMC started, trans gears had to be "stock" other than 5th. You could put whatever 5th you wanted. At some point we opened it up to all gears, mostly because nobody thought this was a big deal and it was never enforced. Well...it is a big deal, if someone takes advantage of it, and we have grown in competitiveness to the point that someone will. So, as I said, there'd be a table in the rules stating what gear ratios are allowed in a given transmission. For example: T56 2.66, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.0, open, open T56 2.97, 1.78, 1.30, 1.0, open, open Those are the ratios from stock Mustang and Camaro boxes, and all we would have in the table for T56. The first is the GM m6 from 94+, the second is the GM M29 from 93, and the third is the Ford S197. So, if your car had a T56, it'd have to have one of those three combinations to be legal. Hope that helps clarify the methodology intended in the RCR. Makes perfect sense now. I'm in favor. Glad we have your support. I hope this shows you that you should have a little faith in the group of Directors in place. There is lots of knowledge of the platforms and understanding of what CMC is about from knowing the history of the class and intent of the rules within the leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Booo. I guess I have parts to feed the AI car's appetite for transmissions... 1978 Corvette: 2.43, 1.63. 1.23, 1.00 1978 F-body: 2.64, 1.75, 1.33, 1.00 Please add the '78 F-body ratio to the list for T10s. Case numbers match the '82-83 T10s. The only thing that will need to be changed will be the tailshaft housing to accomodate the torque arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 As for the rear gearing. If I had a better 5(6) then yeah, 4.30 or 4.56 or 5.40. With the 5-speed - 3.73 or 4.10. Can you really pick one gear for 5 and 6 speed cars? Or do we make a spec trans and gear for all? Same hp, tq, weight, trans, rear? Shifting is slow. Pick a gear that doesn't leave you between gears all the time. This will depend on the tracks you want to optimize for and if you have a rev limiter or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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