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GPS data, Fox vs. 4th gen, 10/6/12 TX event


CMC#11

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  • Glenn

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Has anyone called and asked the manufacture if they know what to expect in lap time reduction from adding a TA to the chassis. Surely they have tested this enough to know a rough answer.

 

Your best post so far Glenn. I will call Maximum Motorsports today and ask that question. I'm going to guess they will know the difference between the torque arm and the Quadrabind but maybe not between the torque arm and the PM3 Link.

 

I'm willing to install the torque arm on my car and run all next season and not worry about points at all but I would want whatever Toyo Bucks I earn (if any). I don't know if anyone or everyone would have a problem with that but with Jay and I splitting time in the car we could see what differences (if any) there are accross a whole season with two drivers. I would also be willing to let Michael turn a few laps at every track to see what he can do with it.

 

JJ

 

While you have good intentions, it isn't going to work that way. Some of your competitors spend more time, money, and effort into the season than you might. When a non compliant car takes conintgency away from a compliant car, it isn't fair to the people who work so hard to make their cars legal. Especially compliance items which could have a performance advantage.

 

You can put one on and run all next season, but I doubt anyone is going to let you collect your contingency money.

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Has anyone called and asked the manufacture if they know what to expect in lap time reduction from adding a TA to the chassis. Surely they have tested this enough to know a rough answer.

 

Your best post so far Glenn. I will call Maximum Motorsports today and ask that question. I'm going to guess they will know the difference between the torque arm and the Quadrabind but maybe not between the torque arm and the PM3 Link.

 

I'm willing to install the torque arm on my car and run all next season and not worry about points at all but I would want whatever Toyo Bucks I earn (if any). I don't know if anyone or everyone would have a problem with that but with Jay and I splitting time in the car we could see what differences (if any) there are accross a whole season with two drivers. I would also be willing to let Michael turn a few laps at every track to see what he can do with it.

 

JJ

 

While you have good intentions, it isn't going to work that way. Some of your competitors spend more time, money, and effort into the season than you might. When a non compliant car takes conintgency away from a compliant car, it isn't fair to the people who work so hard to make their cars legal. Especially compliance items which could have a performance advantage.

 

You can put one on and run all next season, but I doubt anyone is going to let you collect your contingency money.

 

I kinda assumed that.

 

 

JJ

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Instead, I would like to know what it would take for me to get to that "alien" level and not throw bones to bolster my lack of ability, persistance, knowledge or willingness.

 

Don't give me an EASY button ... give me what it takes to be "alien-like".

Well, after we moved to the United States in 1981, my parents applied for a green card. After a lot of hoopla, I got my Permanent "Resident Alien" card.

 

In college, after I accidentally handed a nice officer my green card instead of my drivers license which led me to not getting a ticket, my car club friends affectionately referred to me as "Alien".

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Sure manufactures have done extensive testing with their product vs a PM3L ??? I think I saw a write in Road and track about it !!

 

awesome

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The ONLY way that we've seen the FOX/SN95 platform be competitive is with the PM3L. It's dangerous. It tears up the cars. It's expensive to "feed." Absent the PM3L, though, the platform is slow, and won't turn.

 

Thats just not true. Kellam, Tony G, Griffith (even after the drama) all won more than their statistically fair share of races without the PM3L. Ballingit beat Liebbe for the final CMC1 championship fair and square on the track and without the PM3L. What we dont have is guys regularly competing for podiums in fox/sn95 mustangs in RMR, MW/GL, and Tx today other than Mosty.

 

We've modified the rules to allow reinforcement of suspension mounts and have no data about longevity of the setup after this has been done. Saying that it tears up the cars and is dangerous is just not accurate...yet.

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Wrong. You must use peak performance of the platform to evaluate platform parity. We are looking for the best the chassis can do. Anything else is called driver parity. Thats like asking Usain Bolt to carry an extra 50lbs at the olympics since the other sprinters data shows a lesser perfromance result. Adjustments based on anything other than peak performance of a chassis is "handing out trophys for everyone".

 

Since we are apparently looking for absolutes (which is impossible with type of situation) what gaurantee is there that any one of these cars/drives are the BEST? Maybe some else in a GM model would have out performed everyone else, by 2 seconds in the is test. And maybe we should all put tin foil on our heads and watch out for black helicopters.

 

Totally agree. When there are 3-4 4th gens running close times, it is easy to make a safe assumption of peak performance. Combined w/ some off those 3-4 competing at a National level, and thier performance is quantified. It is not a perfect system. It is the parameters we have to work w/.

So if you were to compare me and Dan this year in TX out of 20 races:

I have 3 fast laps, Dan has 9

I have 5 wins, Dan has 6.

Dan has clearly been faster than me this year yet at Nationals he got beat by two other 4th gens whose fast laps were 1.3 and 1.7 seconds faster respectively.

 

What does that tell you?

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Has anyone called and asked the manufacture if they know what to expect in lap time reduction from adding a TA to the chassis. Surely they have tested this enough to know a rough answer.

 

Your best post so far Glenn. I will call Maximum Motorsports today and ask that question. I'm going to guess they will know the difference between the torque arm and the Quadrabind but maybe not between the torque arm and the PM3 Link.

 

I'm willing to install the torque arm on my car and run all next season and not worry about points at all but I would want whatever Toyo Bucks I earn (if any). I don't know if anyone or everyone would have a problem with that but with Jay and I splitting time in the car we could see what differences (if any) there are accross a whole season with two drivers. I would also be willing to let Michael turn a few laps at every track to see what he can do with it.

 

JJ

 

While you have good intentions, it isn't going to work that way. Some of your competitors spend more time, money, and effort into the season than you might. When a non compliant car takes conintgency away from a compliant car, it isn't fair to the people who work so hard to make their cars legal. Especially compliance items which could have a performance advantage.

 

You can put one on and run all next season, but I doubt anyone is going to let you collect your contingency money.

 

Not read Jerry's response below....

Our guys have a good reputation of expecting rules complaince. We also have a good reputation of allowing folks to venture out past the limits of the rules as long as everyone is OK w/ it. W/ all the CMC racers being OK w/ it, we would allow it.

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Wrong. You must use peak performance of the platform to evaluate platform parity. We are looking for the best the chassis can do. Anything else is called driver parity. Thats like asking Usain Bolt to carry an extra 50lbs at the olympics since the other sprinters data shows a lesser perfromance result. Adjustments based on anything other than peak performance of a chassis is "handing out trophys for everyone".

 

Since we are apparently looking for absolutes (which is impossible with type of situation) what gaurantee is there that any one of these cars/drives are the BEST? Maybe some else in a GM model would have out performed everyone else, by 2 seconds in the is test. And maybe we should all put tin foil on our heads and watch out for black helicopters.

 

Totally agree. When there are 3-4 4th gens running close times, it is easy to make a safe assumption of peak performance. Combined w/ some off those 3-4 competing at a National level, and thier performance is quantified. It is not a perfect system. It is the parameters we have to work w/.

So if you were to compare me and Dan this year in TX out of 20 races:

I have 3 fast laps, Dan has 9

I have 5 wins, Dan has 6.

Dan has clearly been faster than me this year yet at Nationals he got beat by two other 4th gens whose fast laps were 1.3 and 1.7 seconds faster respectively.

 

What does that tell you?

 

Dan has 6 more fast laps than you.

Dan has won 1 race more than you.

 

What it doesn't show me is a 2nd example of the "trend" your showing me. It is really not a trend until a pattern shows. It take more than 1 Fox to make a pattern.

 

We have 2 4th gens and 1 Fox kicking ass. What if we had 2 Fox's and 1 4th gen? Would the agjustment now go to the 4th gen?

I say no.

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Wrong. You must use peak performance of the platform to evaluate platform parity. We are looking for the best the chassis can do. Anything else is called driver parity. Thats like asking Usain Bolt to carry an extra 50lbs at the olympics since the other sprinters data shows a lesser perfromance result. Adjustments based on anything other than peak performance of a chassis is "handing out trophys for everyone".

 

Since we are apparently looking for absolutes (which is impossible with type of situation) what gaurantee is there that any one of these cars/drives are the BEST? Maybe some else in a GM model would have out performed everyone else, by 2 seconds in the is test. And maybe we should all put tin foil on our heads and watch out for black helicopters.

 

Totally agree. When there are 3-4 4th gens running close times, it is easy to make a safe assumption of peak performance. Combined w/ some off those 3-4 competing at a National level, and thier performance is quantified. It is not a perfect system. It is the parameters we have to work w/.

So if you were to compare me and Dan this year in TX out of 20 races:

I have 3 fast laps, Dan has 9

I have 5 wins, Dan has 6.

Dan has clearly been faster than me this year yet at Nationals he got beat by two other 4th gens whose fast laps were 1.3 and 1.7 seconds faster respectively.

 

What does that tell you?

 

Dan has 6 more fast laps than you.

Dan has won 1 race more than you.

 

What it doesn't show me is a 2nd example of the "trend" your showing me. It is really not a trend until a pattern shows. It take more than 1 Fox to make a pattern.

 

We have 2 4th gens and 1 Fox kicking ass. What if we had 2 Fox's and 1 4th gen? Would the agjustment now go to the 4th gen?

I say no.

The adjustment wouldn't go to the 4th gen if the 1 4th gen was still winning more than the 2 fox's combined.

 

There were a whole lot of fast 4th gen guys at Nats this year so that is the perfect pool to pull data from.

What about my previous comment regarding Dan's lap times at nationals compared to the 2 4th gen guys that placed ahead of him?

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I cannot exaplin Dan at Nats's. I think I ran faster than his best in CMC1 trim at Mid O, yet here he is faster than me. I'm wondering if his set-up is just not right for Mid Ohio. Me and him talked about this.

 

Wish we had data logger files for a Fox/SN-95 from this years Nats.

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Wish we had data logger files for a Fox/SN-95 from this years Nats.

 

If it's any consolation, we're already making plans for The Pumpkin to be at Nationals at Miller in 2013 and 2014. Feel free to data-log us and share the information all you want. We will also NOT be running a PM3L or a torque arm rear.

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...and maybe even a 4th that I'm going to refuse to talk or make any promises about???

 

At least 4 Foxes at Nationals? There's clearly a trend developing.

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It would be great to have Adam and Mosty at Nats too, three Foxes to datalog.

Adam's data might look a little wierd, not sure what dozens of spins would look like.

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For 2012 I've had more spins then the previous 6 years combined. I'm also running the car harder, trying different things, being more agressive, etc. My lap times have come down but the spins have come up

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The ONLY way that we've seen the FOX/SN95 platform be competitive is with the PM3L. It's dangerous. It tears up the cars. It's expensive to "feed." Absent the PM3L, though, the platform is slow, and won't turn.

 

Thats just not true. Kellam, Tony G, Griffith (even after the drama) all won more than their statistically fair share of races without the PM3L. Ballingit beat Liebbe for the final CMC1 championship fair and square on the track and without the PM3L. What we dont have is guys regularly competing for podiums in fox/sn95 mustangs in RMR, MW/GL, and Tx today other than Mosty.

 

We've modified the rules to allow reinforcement of suspension mounts and have no data about longevity of the setup after this has been done. Saying that it tears up the cars and is dangerous is just not accurate...yet.

I'm glad you mentioned those other drivers Al. Seems its been proven that if you work on your setup that you can win in a fox/sn95 without running the pm3l.

Mosty just needs to shut up and take his hooptie to Miller next year!

Kudos to Jerry willing to be a guinea pig for the torque arm. I'm sure everyone would be fine with him still getting toyo bucks unless he starts running seconds faster with it.

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I'm glad you mentioned those other drivers Al. Seems its been proven that if you work on your setup that you can win in a fox/sn95 without running the pm3l.

 

Yes, in CMC-1...

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My delivery was wrong, and I should not have posted what I did. My apologies to the CMC drivers and officials.

 

Clearly, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm passionate about racing in general, and CMC in particular. There are times I need to keep my big mouth (and keyboard) shut. This was one of those times.

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I'm not taking sides on this one, but just to clarify, Dave does have a CMC car and does race in CMC. He competes under a team entry which is why you don't see his name in the results for our region.

 

Now back to your previously scheduled lively discussion...

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So if you were to compare me and Dan this year in TX out of 20 races:

I have 3 fast laps, Dan has 9

I have 5 wins, Dan has 6.

Dan has clearly been faster than me this year yet at Nationals he got beat by two other 4th gens whose fast laps were 1.3 and 1.7 seconds faster respectively.

 

What does that tell you?

 

It got pointed out to me that there is some misleading info w/ the wins listed. While I will not dispute the number of total wins, I was told that 3 of the wins for Dan (of the 6) were aquired in your absence at TWS. So when we use "stats" from events were you both raced one another there should be 5 wins for you and 3 wins for Dan. Proctor has 7 wins total, and 6 were aquired at events where you both were in attendance.

Is this correct?

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So if you were to compare me and Dan this year in TX out of 20 races:

I have 3 fast laps, Dan has 9

I have 5 wins, Dan has 6.

Dan has clearly been faster than me this year yet at Nationals he got beat by two other 4th gens whose fast laps were 1.3 and 1.7 seconds faster respectively.

 

What does that tell you?

 

It got pointed out to me that there is some misleading info w/ the wins listed. While I will not dispute the number of total wins, I was told that 3 of the wins for Dan (of the 6) were aquired in your absence at TWS. So when we use "stats" from events were you both raced one another there should be 5 wins for you and 3 wins for Dan. Proctor has 7 wins total, and 6 were aquired at events where you both were in attendance.

Is this correct?

Almost.

In the 4 events I have run this year I have 5 wins, Dan has 3, and Proctor has 7.

In the 1 event I missed (TWS) Dan had 3 wins and Proctor had 1 win.

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Michael,

Thanks for letting us know about your spring setup at Cresson. That's a perfect example of why more than one weekends worth of race data should be considered when making decisions. I probably shouldn't say this but I've been dialing out negative camber as the year's gone on to help with braking. It's helped.

 

Glenn,

I've had my car for 1.5 years and the Midwest and Great Lakes CMC field is running over 2 seconds a lap faster than when the previous owner drove it and won 9 out of 15 races with it. So absolutely CMC is getting faster and quickly. CMC track records fell at four of the six tracks we raced at this year.

 

Michael and Glenn,

At Nationals Dan's best lap time would have been an additional 1 second behind the two other 4th gens if he hadn't rec'd some coaching from one of his competitors. As a driver Dan can get better at Mid Ohio. I'm sure he would agree with that. The majority of the time loss was driver not car.

 

Adam,

Before you go off on someone you should really get some background facts first. Your comments were really inappropriate just because you disagree with someone else's point of view.

 

Derek Wright

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Please explain exactly how you know all of this? Especially since you haven't yet turned a single lap in CMC racing.

 

If you don't like the current ruleset, and don't believe you can be competitive, particularly when you haven't yet raced CMC, feel free to move on to another class.

 

Ugh.....time to go back to ignoring this forum again.....too much of a time-suck.....

 

These things typically get f'd up when the personal attacks start.

I know a lot of you guys, and know your're not like this, so why?

 

This is the second director that has encouraged someone to go race somewhere else if they dont like it. And I think both comments were directed toward Dave Lowum. By the way he's a great guy and asset to the cmc community. Just because you dont know him and don't agree with is point of view doesn't give you the right to get nasty. What grade are we in ?

My opinion is that any cmc racer or potential racer should be able to make their point. And besides I would think that someone coming from another association or race series may have a different and possibly better perspective. Keep in mind, its a good idea to grow the class.

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