Re-engine of CMC '88 Mustang: valvetrain questions

[37Stang]

Cam advance and ECU tuning are both not legal in CMC. Fuel pressure and timing are adjustable but must match your dyno sheet.

 

I just skimmed the rules but can you point out to me the rule that states the cam can not be advanced?

 

Cause it didn't come that way from the OEM. It has to go in straight up dot to dot.

 

The E-cam didn't come installed in any OEM Ford vehicle. The manufacturing tolerances of the FRPP cams are all over the place. I looked over the rules again and did not find any thing that stated it has to be installed "dot to dot". Is there a specific rule I am missing that states it has to be installed "dot to dot"?

 

Try reading the 1st rule in the CMC rules.

 

1. INTRODUCTION

The following rules are not guidelines for this series but an actual listing of allowed and required modifications. The only legal modifications are those specifically allowed by applicable rules. If not specifically allowed, any modifications are prohibited. Some equipment may be required to support the sponsors who have contributed to the year end points fund.

 

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

FYI - installing a camshaft and properly setting up that camshaft is NOT a modification - it is an installation.

[RichV]

The E-cam didn't come installed in any OEM Ford vehicle. The manufacturing tolerances of the FRPP cams are all over the place. I looked over the rules again and did not find any thing that stated it has to be installed "dot to dot". Is there a specific rule I am missing that states it has to be installed "dot to dot"?

 

If you read 7.1, basicaly it states:

 

Use OEM, or OEM replacement. Unless the rules allow otherwise.

 

So for timing gear, you should not have adjustable because OEM is not. So to be legal, dot to dot is the only OEM/legal option. Saavy?

[Glenn]

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

F me........ Really? You know squat about me and I'm the guy who needs to bone up on engine building 101? Really? From what you imply, there has never been a cam installed dot to dot ever in the history of the internal combustion motor.

 

Get with your regional director and see what he has to say. I've given you the official answer that all CMC Directors should give you. I've been down this very road long before you and got the same answer. This is not the first time this has come up, and obviously not the last.

 

Try and build a motor....... No clue.

[jesm]

My primary goal is to get it running for HPDE with a bonus of keeping it legal for CMC. I am leaning toward keeping the speed density computer, stock intake (easier than converting to mass-air and Explorer stuff), adding GT40P heads, Explorer injectors (if they will work), shorty headers, and an OEM Cobra cam. Thanks for all the advice and info provided.

[37Stang]

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

F me........ Really? You know squat about me and I'm the guy who needs to bone up on engine building 101? Really? From what you imply, there has never been a cam installed dot to dot ever in the history of the internal combustion motor.

 

Get with your regional director and see what he has to say. I've given you the official answer that all CMC Directors should give you. I've been down this very road long before you and got the same answer. This is not the first time this has come up, and obviously not the last.

 

Try and build a motor....... No clue.

 

F-you... Really.

 

Guess what Glen... you don't know anything about me.

 

However, I do know about you as far as reading your responses on this board.

 

So, if one were to have their cam installed "dot to dot" and the and the valve events do not match the cam card is that considered "modified"?

 

Or, if one were install the cam so that it matched the cam card but not "dot to dot" is that considered "modified"?

[MHISSTC]

My primary goal is to get it running for HPDE with a bonus of keeping it legal for CMC. I am leaning toward keeping the speed density computer, stock intake (easier than converting to mass-air and Explorer stuff), adding GT40P heads, Explorer injectors (if they will work), shorty headers, and an OEM Cobra cam. Thanks for all the advice and info provided.

 

Sounds like a good plan of attack. I believe the Explorer injectors will work. In fact I just read on a website where it was hypothesized the Explorer injectors were better because they atomize the fuel better due to the newer three hole pintle/spray/nozzle tip instead of the older single hole Mustang units.

 

Also, if you still have the stock airbox, keep it. It seems wacky, but we tried a K&N cone filter and a drop-in panel K&N in the stock airbox and actually made about 5 more HP using the stock airbox than with with the cone filter. It may have had something to do with ingesting heat from behind the radiator instead of pulling cooler air from inside the fender, but the bottom line was the stock parts were better.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Guest

[MHISSTC]

I started to find the information I was grasping for earlier, but I realized that you are on a pathway of discovery in this series. I think there is no better way to learn something than to discover it for yourself. Therefore I can either go ahead and look up the parts numbers and specs and post them here if you want them, or I can point you to the Mustang 5.0 Technical Reference & Performance Handbook by Al Kirschenbaum for you to look up and learn way more than I can type here. The experts have found a few small errors in that book over the years, but I think it's still one of the best and most comprehensive resources for the kind of information you are seeking right now.

 

EDIT: Yikes! It looks like those books are out of print and subsequently got kind of pricey since I bought mine for less than $35 back in the day. Here is the Amazon link. It might make a good Christmas gift request though.

[Glenn]

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

F me........ Really? You know squat about me and I'm the guy who needs to bone up on engine building 101? Really? From what you imply, there has never been a cam installed dot to dot ever in the history of the internal combustion motor.

 

Get with your regional director and see what he has to say. I've given you the official answer that all CMC Directors should give you. I've been down this very road long before you and got the same answer. This is not the first time this has come up, and obviously not the last.

 

Try and build a motor....... No clue.

 

F-you... Really.

 

Guess what Glen... you don't know anything about me.

 

However, I do know about you as far as reading your responses on this board.

 

So, if one were to have their cam installed "dot to dot" and the and the valve events do not match the cam card is that considered "modified"?

 

Or, if one were install the cam so that it matched the cam card but not "dot to dot" is that considered "modified"?

 

Last responce as this is going no where.

I never mentioned knowing anything about you. However, you seem like you know all about me. Remember, you started down that path, not me.

 

I could see ensuring the cam is installed per the cam card. However, you mentioned installing it advanced or retard, and not per the cam card.

So no, you cannot advance the cam or retard the cam. If you don't like that answer, you should send off an email or make a phone call to your Regional Director and CC the National Director as well. My answer is not final, but it is correct more times than not.

[37Stang]

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

F me........ Really? You know squat about me and I'm the guy who needs to bone up on engine building 101? Really? From what you imply, there has never been a cam installed dot to dot ever in the history of the internal combustion motor.

 

Get with your regional director and see what he has to say. I've given you the official answer that all CMC Directors should give you. I've been down this very road long before you and got the same answer. This is not the first time this has come up, and obviously not the last.

 

Try and build a motor....... No clue.

 

F-you... Really.

 

Guess what Glen... you don't know anything about me.

 

However, I do know about you as far as reading your responses on this board.

 

So, if one were to have their cam installed "dot to dot" and the and the valve events do not match the cam card is that considered "modified"?

 

Or, if one were install the cam so that it matched the cam card but not "dot to dot" is that considered "modified"?

 

Last responce as this is going no where.

I never mentioned knowing anything about you. However, you seem like you know all about me. Remember, you started down that path, not me.

 

I could see ensuring the cam is installed per the cam card. However, you mentioned installing it advanced or retard, and not per the cam card.

So no, you cannot advance the cam or retard the cam. If you don't like that answer, you should send off an email or make a phone call to your Regional Director and CC the National Director as well. My answer is not final, but it is correct more times than not.

 

You're correct...

 

But I never claimed to know "all about" you... Like I stated earlier, just what I have gathered reading your responses on this board.

[CMC#11]

Glen, try building an engine sometime...

 

F me........ Really? You know squat about me and I'm the guy who needs to bone up on engine building 101? Really? From what you imply, there has never been a cam installed dot to dot ever in the history of the internal combustion motor.

 

Get with your regional director and see what he has to say. I've given you the official answer that all CMC Directors should give you. I've been down this very road long before you and got the same answer. This is not the first time this has come up, and obviously not the last.

 

Try and build a motor....... No clue.

 

F-you... Really.

 

Guess what Glen... you don't know anything about me.

 

However, I do know about you as far as reading your responses on this board.

 

So, if one were to have their cam installed "dot to dot" and the and the valve events do not match the cam card is that considered "modified"?

 

Or, if one were install the cam so that it matched the cam card but not "dot to dot" is that considered "modified"?

 

Last responce as this is going no where.

I never mentioned knowing anything about you. However, you seem like you know all about me. Remember, you started down that path, not me.

 

I could see ensuring the cam is installed per the cam card. However, you mentioned installing it advanced or retard, and not per the cam card.

So no, you cannot advance the cam or retard the cam. If you don't like that answer, you should send off an email or make a phone call to your Regional Director and CC the National Director as well. My answer is not final, but it is correct more times than not.

 

You're correct...

 

But I never claimed to know "all about" you... Like I stated earlier, just what I have gathered reading your responses on this board.

85306Fox, just like you stated: you were "reading his responses on this board". The fact is Glenn is helping answer your questions. He is the most active director on this forum and helps answer questions for everyone. Nobody has ever said Glenn is the most p/c person but bottom line is he has great intentions and is doing what he can to help the series.

There is nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion w/ someone, that is why there are a dozen regional directors and a National director.

 

If you don't personally know someone then don't take anything they type on this forum personally, just take it as another source of information.

[Al F.]

Phew...glad to see this didnt boil over. Oh wait...it did.

 

Thanks Michael

 

Glenn, Mr. 85306...no need to get abusive on each other here.

 

I'll admit that sometimes for answers to questions like this one has to hunt around a little bit, and maybe exercise some logic, and likely ask around and/or do some searching. We're talking about cars, not coffee cups, there are a lot of details.

 

Glenn is right, there is no provision in the CMC rules for adjustable timing hardware, and there is a provision that the engine will be stock unless elsewhere allowed. The cam is allowed to be substituted (in some cases) but there is no mention of installation. The only logical conclusion is the cam needs to be installed as per OE spec using the stock timing.

[soundguydave1548534741]

As long as we're on the subject of the E303 cams, and in particular the known loose tolerances from FRPP, I have what I hope to be a simple question...

 

IF you were in the position of building a 302 from scratch, and using the E cam, would it be legal to have an EXACT duplicate custom-ground, for the sole purpose of tightening the tolerances? By EXACT, I mean absolutely no monkeying around with the lobe profiles, gross lift, base circle, lobe centerline, or anything else. Basically, getting a custom-ground cam that would have an identical cam card associated to it... My thinking here is that it would be an EXACT aftermarket replacement for an "OE" part, thus should be legal per 7.1. The intent here is to avoid buying several and testing them out to see which one comes up best on the degree wheel, essentially akin to the Miata ECU trick. If the concern is "cheating," verification of the cam specs could still be done in-place, and would be no different than verifying that an FRPP E cam hadn't been reground.

 

No skin in this game on my part, mine's already built, but for future reference, it might be nice to know.

[Al F.]

Welcome to the world of building engines for SM!! Honestly, I dont know off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure I could argue either way. I'm also pretty sure that if you have the time and budget to do this, you're going to be winning anyway.

[CMC#11]

Just my opinion but I'd rather see the rules strictly limit it to the FRPP e-cam. If you want to spend your $$ on multiple FRPP camshafts and a crap load of dyno time then have at it.

[soundguydave1548534741]

Thanks guys, it's kind of an interesting conundrum... The part spec'd, while wholly functional, is known to have widely varying tolerances from the "specification," and this was a point that came up for discussion with our engine builder. We (obviously) went with the FRPP E cam, but our whole build philosophy was to do it ONCE, and do it RIGHT. Nowhere even close to unlimited budget, but I also got extremely tired of skipping sessions to fix something that blew up, ending race weekends early, and in general having more stress than I wanted on my "mental hygene" days. I see other guys CONSTANTLY throwing wrenches at their cars (at one point I saw three CMC cars lined up in a row, all changing head gaskets!), and as I very happily instruct for NASA, simply don't have the luxury of time to do that at the track. Our goal for our build was a solid motor, that makes the numbers, and with nothing on the edge just waiting to blow up. Inspect the bearings annually, refresh the motor every two or three years, sure. Start over again every year? No thanks.

 

Also, FWIW, the custom-ground camshafts are NOT much more expensive than the off the shelf parts, either. Like on the order of $50-100. You also don't have to put it on the dyno to see the difference, either. Slap a degree wheel on the motor, and confirm the timing events for each cylinder, and you can see a decent amount of variation. Call me silly, but if I'm supposed to see max lift at "X" degrees, then "X+4.2" is out of spec... As for the time/money argument, is it cheaper and/or faster to buy, say four bumpsticks and test them for the one closest to spec, or have one custom ground that IS in spec?

[Al F.]

I'd agree that plus or minus four degrees sounds like a lot. Are the FR cams that loose in their tolerances, just this cam, all cams? I'll be honest and say I've never heard this before, either for the E or any other cam. I'm not an engine guru by any definition though.

[Glenn]

It was discussed to allow non-FRPP E cams (E cam specs ground by another cam manufacture) and it was rejected by the majority of Directors. I think the proposed RCR was for allowing other cams in place of the E cam. That too was rejected. How about offering up an alternative cam that would produce the same power numbers and curve as the E cam? Provide documentation to back it up and see what happens.

 

As was said before, I don't see a problem w/ needing to install an offset bushing in the upper gear to correct for grind variations, but to install a cam advanced/retard of the cam card is not legal.

I once asked to be allowed to install a smaller cam than the OEM LT1 F-body cam and was shot down. The goal was to reduce the need for a restrictor plate when we were at the 230/300 power numbers.

 

I have known of folks OE blueprinting w/ cams and timing gears before. Mix and match parts until the variations is tolerances stack-up in your favor. So it’s not unheard of for the need to buy multiple cams to get something your happy w/. But you must understand that none of the issues pointed out w/ the cam will result in engine failure. You may be unhappy w/ it, but it will work just fine for CMC. You may be down a few HP/TQ compared to another Ford 5.0, but all platforms have variations. My LT1 made 280+ hp unrestricted in 100% stock from the factory form. I have rebuilt it and got the same numbers. Other LT1’s can’t break the 260 mark unrestricted. Not sure why that is.

 

Any documentation showing that this E cam has this issue. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. Give us something other than what you have to work w/.

[soundguydave1548534741]

I have no data to share, unfortunately, as I didn't build the motor myself. All I have to go on is conversations with our builder, and his previous experiences with the FRPP cams... In the end, the rules are the rules, so in went the E cam, no drama thus far. And trust me, I take no offense to your comments.

[bluebandit48]

I built a stock cobra motor, 1.7 rockers, little bit stiffer valve springs, with shorty headers, threw in the E cam, the rest of the motor stock, and it made 264hp 300tq, a little more torque would be nice, but cant argue with what I got, I was happy. lined up the cam, dot to dot, no interference, everything looked good.

 

the alphabet cams get a lot of flack from people. FYI, they are made by comp I believe.

[suck fumes1548534743]

Grounding cams technically is legal as there is no way to prove you have a ground cam if there is a large tolerance spec from Ford racing. And if you we're to get protested the protester would have a hell of a time trying to prove his case. Been down this road before, if its done right no one can ever throw you out as long as the "spec" is loose from ford. Just sayin....

[Glenn]

You would know. That should matter. If it doesn't, your here for the wrong reasons.

[suck fumes1548534743]

I'm just stating the facts. It would be a very minor advantage but I can tell you that extra 3-5hp you get from it could mean a car length ahead at the end of the straight. And whether it follows the "intent" of the rule or not doesn't matter. If it's in spec it's legal. Now as far as this class goes I couldn't tell you if it's worth it, but would some people be willing to try it....maybe....but since this class hasn't turned into a spending battle I doubt very many if any have. This cam battle happened in spec Miata a few years back and people were pushing the specs to the very edge and it did make a difference but you better be darn sure it's in the spec range. Some people invested stupid amounts of money to make it work. The point I'm getting at with all this is the guy who pays attention to all the little details in car prep is the guy who is going to win, assuming he can drive as well.

[CMC#11]

Grounding cams technically is legal as there is no way to prove you have a ground cam if there is a large tolerance spec from Ford racing. And if you we're to get protested the protester would have a hell of a time trying to prove his case. Been down this road before, if its done right no one can ever throw you out as long as the "spec" is loose from ford. Just sayin....

Wow, this has to be the quote of the year!!!

I understand we get to race with you next year here in the TX region. Should we be getting our protest forms ready? You are making one heck of a first impression.

[suck fumes1548534743]

LOL!!! Protest away. I don't need to go to those extremes in this class. It's not needed due to the awesome power table which I applaud by the way. Seriously. I'm just stating points about what can be done and still be legal in reference to other comments made by others earlier.

[FBody383]

And whether it follows the "intent" of the rule or not doesn't matter.

I disagree - in this class I think it certainly does matter. I've seen reasonable allowance for things that occurred with the intent of compliance and competition and not seeking an advantage.

 

Protest away.

 

17.6 Bad Faith Protests

Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts or modifications to another competitor’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or outcome of the

protest.

 

This is CMC.

 

You probably won't have to cheat to finish ahead of me, but why even create any suspicion?