wheel weight determination and policing

[D Algozine]

Perhaps my point of view will change in the future, but the rules are very cut and dry. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't, so gluing in a spacer to make it a permanent part of the wheel isn't legal. Of course there are exceptions when the director allows things on a case by case basis, but just trying to read between the lines on the current set of rules, there is NO leeway, NO room for interpretation. Let balance weights count, who cares? They're at the very outside of the wheel and if you're that into splitting hairs, they increase the MOI. If they fly away and now the wheel is underweight, whose problem is that? The driver who took the risk. I see 15 pages of bitching about something that isn't worth 15 pages of bitching.

 

I love the complaining about the number of pages/posts about a discussion.

What is the magic number or perfect post count for a thread ?

Don't like the number, then don't add to it. Several of the comments about the number of pages are from people who have posted many times in this thread. WTF. DONT LIKE IT...DON'T READ IT. Turn on the TV or go complain somewhere else.

[Dustin M.]

LOL, you say that like I'm the only one complaining.

[MHISSTC]

Perhaps my point of view will change in the future...

 

Grab a beer and come chat with us as we discuss RCRs this weekend after hours, get your comp license, run a few races, rinse and repeat.

[Dustin M.]

Perhaps my point of view will change in the future...

 

Grab a beer and come chat with us as we discuss RCRs this weekend after hours, get your comp license, run a few races, rinse and repeat.

 

I'd love to, but I fly out of the country tomorrow.

[Sidney]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

[Glenn]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

 

Really? All series directors live in Texas?

Are ELF waves making you say this dribble?

[Boudy1548534717]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

 

Umm...yes I do. It's commonly referred to as an RCR. As for the rest of the non-productive statement... Sounds like have other issues to deal with to which I'm not concerned.

 

Boudy

[Sidney]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

 

Really? All series directors live in Texas?

Are ELF waves making you say this dribble?

 

Glenn,

 

Did you read Boudy's post? "Because management F'd up and now they need to step in a(nd) fix it." I know you've been following along for the last 15 pages so I'm not going to point out who the "Management that F'd up" is. What I was pointing out to Boudy was he in fact doesn't have a vote as he's not a Region Director. Yes he can submit an RCR to reverse Al's previous decision but he cannot vote on it. I made an assumption that his (Texas) Region Director being you would not vote in his favor (I may be wrong) and that his best bet would be to look toward another Region Director to vote his way. Seeing as how the Midwest, Great Lakes, and Rock Mountain Regions have already posted in this thread against Light Weight wheels...the only regions that haven't really been heard from are the East Coast Directors.

 

Glenn...you need to take a step back...reread Boudy's post...take your emotions out of his words and not try to read anything between my words. You're absolutely right that not all the series directors live in Texas and each region has an equal vote. I'm sure more than one well written RCR will be submitted to reverse the Light Weight Wheel Loophole and it will be voted on.

 

Sidney

 

on edit:

 

PS. if you'd rather take this discussion back to PM's I'm fine with that. Thanks.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Guest

[Sidney]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

 

Umm...yes I do. It's commonly referred to as an RCR. As for the rest of the non-productive statement... Sounds like have other issues to deal with to which I'm not concerned.

 

Boudy

 

Umm...no you don't but see my previous post to Glenn for more explanation.

 

Sidney

[Boudy1548534717]

Explanation read, point taken.

 

Boudy

[Glenn]

I vote to leave the weight limit as intended to account for wheel weight as purchased...Boudy

 

Umm...you don't have a vote and seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas I'd say you're going to have a hard time getting Texas to vote the light weight wheels out. You're best bet is to start lobbying the East Coast CMC directors that are always quiet on the forums.

 

Sidney

 

Really? All series directors live in Texas?

Are ELF waves making you say this dribble?

 

Glenn,

 

Did you read Boudy's post? "Because management F'd up and now they need to step in a(nd) fix it." I know you've been following along for the last 15 pages so I'm not going to point out who the "Management that F'd up" is. What I was pointing out to Boudy was he in fact doesn't have a vote as he's not a Region Director. Yes he can submit an RCR to reverse Al's previous decision but he cannot vote on it. I made an assumption that his (Texas) Region Director being you would not vote in his favor (I may be wrong) and that his best bet would be to look toward another Region Director to vote his way. Seeing as how the Midwest, Great Lakes, and Rock Mountain Regions have already posted in this thread against Light Weight wheels...the only regions that haven't really been heard from are the East Coast Directors.

 

Glenn...you need to take a step back...reread Boudy's post...take your emotions out of his words and not try to read anything between my words. You're absolutely right that not all the series directors live in Texas and each region has an equal vote. I'm sure more than one well written RCR will be submitted to reverse the Light Weight Wheel Loophole and it will be voted on.

 

Sidney

 

on edit:

 

PS. if you'd rather take this discussion back to PM's I'm fine with that. Thanks.

 

My comment towards you was about this:

 

seeing as this...umm..."Management Decision"...came from Texas

 

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

We could blame alot of dumb things Matt King did on the GL region, but you would likely correct me as that not being a GL region thing.

Right?

 

 

Seeing as how the Midwest, Great Lakes, and Rock Mountain Regions have already posted in this thread against Light Weight wheels...the only regions that haven't really been heard from are the East Coast Directors.

Pretty sure I'm against anything under 18lbs. The issue is what constitutes a 18lb wheel. I'm pretty sure all Directors are against wheels under 18lbs. We just don't agree on how important IN CMC the placement of that weight is.

[Glenn]

And Sidney, you would be very suprised to know the relationship me and Boudy have and how often we have talked on the phone this week. I think we both understand each other very well. None of my comments here are directed towards him. He knows this.

[ShadowBolt]

Just so those from outside Texas know.......most of us Texas drivers DID NOT like the rule when we saw that you could weld spacers to light wheels. We went back and forth on the forum with most not liking the idea (it is not in the sprit of CMC). I think the thing that made it okay was the fact that there was nothing in the rules to keep someone from purchasing custom 18lb. wheels. All of us would rather have people doing what Aaron did instead of spending custom one off wheel money. Several of you keep saying how bad a rule this was/is. The S197 is what brought us down this road to 17" wheels, more power, and big brakes. If the S197 had never been aloud in CMC I assume we would still be on 16" wheels at 230/300 and running two pot brakes.

 

 

JJ

[AllZWay]

The S197 is what brought us down this road to 17" wheels, more power, and big brakes. If the S197 had never been aloud in CMC I assume we would still be on 16" wheels at 230/300 and running two pot brakes.

 

JJ

 

Ding...ding... ding... You are the winner...not just on the track.

[Sidney]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

[CMC#11]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

Sidney, were there any other racers in a different region that asked the National Director to do this and got told no?

You make it sound like a Texas racer received preferential treatment.

[nape1548534725]

No one asked because "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."

[Glenn]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

 

 

And your wrong. All directors voted on the RCR about counting non attached spacers towards wheel weight. We all agreed based on a majority vote that if you wanted it to count towards wheel weight, attach it. It was decided there to count attached spacers towards wheel weight.

 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I can name names if it helps. I votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal.

[Boudy1548534717]

One could get caught up on who approved what and who said that, OR everyone could get on the same page for the benefit of the series.

 

Boudy

[ShadowBolt]

No one asked because "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."

 

I'm sorry but you can't use that one for everything. I damn sure the rules do not say you can put gas in the car, or a helmet hook. For years every GM was running a ducted radiator. There was not a word saying you could do it.

 

 

JJ

[ls168camaro]

No one asked because "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."

 

Then how did people show up with 6 speeds transmission with different gear ratios?

[Sidney]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

 

 

And your wrong. All directors voted on the RCR about counting non attached spacers towards wheel weight. We all agreed based on a majority vote that if you wanted it to count towards wheel weight, attach it. It was decided there to count attached spacers towards wheel weight.

 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I can name names if it helps. I votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal.

 

Yes, please. List the date this was voted on and by whom. List the vote count and which way each region voted on it. Also list the date the rules were revised to allow all competitors with access to the CCR to see this new rule revision.

 

Also please be clearer on your last sentence. "Votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal." What exactly are you talking about? What was this vote for? 1 for and 7 against. What rule was this that was shot down?

 

Sorry that I seem to keep stirring this pot. Just think there is a lot of mis-information between the two sides of this debate and some of it needs better clarification.

 

Thanks,

 

Sidney

[Sidney]

No one asked because "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."

 

I damn sure the rules do not say you can put gas in the car, or a helmet hook. For years every GM was running a ducted radiator. There was not a word saying you could do it.

 

 

JJ

 

You can't use that line...that one is Glenn's!

 

Sidney

[D Algozine]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

 

 

And your wrong. All directors voted on the RCR about counting non attached spacers towards wheel weight. We all agreed based on a majority vote that if you wanted it to count towards wheel weight, attach it. It was decided there to count attached spacers towards wheel weight.

 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I can name names if it helps. I votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal.

 

Regarding the rule, just to be crystal clear.............This wheel/spacer clarification does NOT show up in the 2013 rules or any Tech Bulletins.

This has compounded the confusion. I have not heard why , but the fact remains, its not listed

 

So there are more then one issues here:

1) Where is the rule change or tech bulletin?

2) How did it get missed

3) If its not listed, then according to the rules, its not a rule. Proper protocol was not followed

Besides all of the above

4) Reasoning behind the change has been questioned

5) Was the change the correct call made to allow spacer/wheel combo?

6) Should the rule be modified again?

 

So.......Some have asked why complain NOW about the spacer/wheel rule,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,becuase most of us never saw this change, and didn't know this change occured. so don't get pissed at the masses becuase the change wasnt documented properly.

 

Also, While I have your attention,and took up space for yet another POST

FIX it. We all know that custom wheels dont belong. Do we really need an RCR?

 

edit : PS Whats the record for number of pages ? LOL

[Glenn]

That "Management Decision" was not from Texas. It was from all regional Directors. Thats my point. Its not a Texas decision, its a CMC Director decision.

 

Glenn,

 

The "Management Decision" that both Boudy (I too have had private conversations with Boudy) and I are talking about is the "Approval" of adding the Spacers to the weight of the wheel to meet the 18 lb rule.

 

It's not in the rules and was not voted on by the other Regions. Therefore, it came from Texas. Al F. in particular. You're the only Region that has approved this "Modification".

 

Is that clearer?

 

Sidney

 

 

And your wrong. All directors voted on the RCR about counting non attached spacers towards wheel weight. We all agreed based on a majority vote that if you wanted it to count towards wheel weight, attach it. It was decided there to count attached spacers towards wheel weight.

 

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I can name names if it helps. I votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal.

 

Yes, please. List the date this was voted on and by whom. List the vote count and which way each region voted on it. Also list the date the rules were revised to allow all competitors with access to the CCR to see this new rule revision.

 

Also please be clearer on your last sentence. "Votes cast and only one was in favor of the RCR. Not all voted since 7 "no" votes was more than half. Done deal." What exactly are you talking about? What was this vote for? 1 for and 7 against. What rule was this that was shot down?

 

Sorry that I seem to keep stirring this pot. Just think there is a lot of mis-information between the two sides of this debate and some of it needs better clarification.

 

Thanks,

 

Sidney

 

I should have not said I would name names. I will not do that. I have in the past and it was wrong. If those Directors want to say how they voted, let them.

The vote was for the RCR about counting wheel spacers as part of the wheel weight when they were not attached to the wheel. The RCR was rejected 7 to 1. Not all Directors voted since the 7 no's put it over the have way point. Majority rules. The result of the RCR in private emails and phone conferences was if the weight wants to be counted, it must be attached. That right there granted the permission to do it. Along w/ no limits in offset or construction that is in the rules.

 

From my POV, this can all just stop now. Al has said this area of the rules will be reviewed w/ or w/out an RCR being submitted from the CMC group.

If it was me, I wouldn't buy any wheels right now. There is just no way to tell how this will turn out in a couple months. Likely 1 of two things.... The rules will be more clear to allow whathas already been done, or the rule will be re-written to only allow 18lb or heavier wheels in an unmodified state. Pretty sure there will not be a 16lb weight and I'm pretty sure there will be no cost limit placed on wheels.

 

There has already been plenty of drama attached to this issue. It will get addressed. Your best bet is to talk to your regional rep's and make sure they know how you feel. They don't have to vote the way you want, but it helps them if they know how you feel. All Directors have a comon goal - presevation of the series. None of us wants it to die, much less while in our hands. The past of CMC must be protected as well as the future. That is a hard thing to balance.

 

This issue is a result of good intentions and not being to predict where racers would take and exploit the allowance. This is the very reason why we push back so much in other areas. We want to be sure we are not allowing areas to be made more gray and exploited.