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MHISSTC

wheel weight determination and policing

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MHISSTC

Dave,

 

I'm with you on this one. We can continue to debate this and continue to restate the same points on both sides of the argument, but I think it's becoming pretty clear the status quo is going to remain. In order to move forward and get the wheels of change in motion (pun intended), I think a clear and well worded Rules Change Request is about the only avenue available at this time.

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MHISSTC
Enkeis are cheap for light wheels. $205 ea in a group buy. Anybody can jump on that and do the same thing. In a way I did the CMC spirit method by choosing a $200 wheel vs a $750 per wheel from fikse or forgeline.

 

I was actually very surprised at how cheap even the retail price is on the Enkei wheels. I just never considered them as a viable option since when I looked at them previously the published bare wheel weight is less than the minimum specified in the CMC rules.

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D Algozine
Just FYI. Enkeis are cheap for light wheels. $205 ea in a group buy. Anybody can jump on that and do the same thing. In a way I did the CMC spirit method by choosing a $200 wheel vs a $750 per wheel from fikse or forgeline.

 

That's a good deal for you, and for anyone else who is starting from scratch, and can get that deal. I looked up those wheels and came up with $260 each.

Also, there are several hundred racers who already have 3 or more sets of wheels that fit the letter and intent of the rule. And because non of the readily available , inexpensive wheels are 16lbs, everyone else has wheels that are 20-22 lbs or more, without the necessary spacer. So, with this latest "clarification" there are many racers who will fall into the " have not" category on this one. Before this loop hole was found, you likely had to have custom wheels made. Which for some reason is legal, but I have no idea why. All of which has no place in CMC.

 

Directly from Enkie

"Every pound of unsprung weight savings has the effect of reducing overall vehicle weight by 20lbs."

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Glenn

Yep. And he has no advantage with unsprung weight. The limit is 18. He is at 18. You to can be at 18.

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D Algozine
Yep. And he has no advantage with unsprung weight. The limit is 18. He is at 18. You to can be at 18.

 

No those Enkie's are 16

And you're completely ignoring the whole point.

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Glenn

Once modified they are 18.

 

What is your point again?

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MHISSTC
We can continue to debate this and continue to restate the same points on both sides of the argument... ...I think a clear and well worded Rules Change Request is about the only avenue available at this time.

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D Algozine
Once modified they are 18.

 

What is your point again?

 

Sorry, my dance card is full. Go pull someone elses chain

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Glenn
Just FYI. Enkeis are cheap for light wheels. $205 ea in a group buy. Anybody can jump on that and do the same thing. In a way I did the CMC spirit method by choosing a $200 wheel vs a $750 per wheel from fikse or forgeline.

 

That's a good deal for you, and for anyone else who is starting from scratch, and can get that deal. I looked up those wheels and came up with $260 each.

Also, there are several hundred racers who already have 3 or more sets of wheels that fit the letter and intent of the rule. And because non of the readily available , inexpensive wheels are 16lbs, everyone else has wheels that are 20-22 lbs or more, without the necessary spacer. So, with this latest "clarification" there are many racers who will fall into the " have not" category on this one. Before this loop hole was found, you likely had to have custom wheels made. Which for some reason is legal, but I have no idea why. All of which has no place in CMC.

 

Directly from Enkie

"Every pound of unsprung weight savings has the effect of reducing overall vehicle weight by 20lbs."

 

 

So lets say (with regards to any other area of the rules) when we have a line drawn in the sand and at the time the line is drawn there are no parts available that measure up to the hard number limit. Then at some point, that part is built and fits right inline w/ the rules. Do we change the rules to ban it? Or do we say "Hey, its legal per the rule." I would think we could say its legal. This is no different.

 

What Arron has is legal. Sorry you didn't realize it. Sorry so many of you didn't know. It is obvious that the rules were lacking in spelling it out since so many of you seem to have issue.

Now, if you have issue w/ the whole rule in general, then that is another problem all together. If you guys want to put cost limits in place, if you want to ban custom built wheels, if you want to only allow OEM wheels or whatever.... you will have to request an RCR, it is just that simple.

 

So until anyone wants to address the below senarios (from the other thread) I have given as an example, I am finished w/ this topic.

An explanation was given. You either like it or you don't. If you don't like the rule, ask for change. Change will not result from complaining in this thread. We have a process and it needs to be followed.

 

 

Tell me what is allowed to be done to wheel that will increase its weight and still be legal?

Paint

Powder coating

Wheel repair

Wheel widening

 

In all those examples the wheel is modified and the weight has been increased. Any of those actions can be done and if the weight of the wheel ends up at 18.0000lbs, the wheel is legal. Period. So here we have a spacer welded to a wheel and it isn't ok by you and a few others. The after mod weight is legal. He can have wheels custom made that are identical to what he has and they will be 100% legal per your position. The only difference is he had to spend custom wheel $'s to make you happy. Nothing has changed with the wheel only the route taken to get there. By the directors allowing what has been done here, this set-up is more attainable cost wise to more CMC racers. The flip side is guys with big bank will have custon cut wheels and the more we have guys winning on them the more it will appear they are required to win. That is not what we want. These wheels are off the shelf and only require a simple mod to meet the weight rule.

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D Algozine
What is the point of having a minimum wheel weight?

 

No I'm serious.......I think we (racers) are entitled to one or more of the directors or series director to explain to ALL why there is a minimum weight limit? And exactly how and why they arrived at the current weights.

 

I think one or more RCR's could be written, but we need to know the answers to the questions above.

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MHISSTC

So go ahead and come up with an RCR with a version of the rule you can accept in addition to being good for CMC as a whole and post it up here along with an explanation of how you came up with it and you essentially get to provide the answer to those questions yourself.

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TXCMC#14

There was an rcr #17 submitted last year, by Scott Lockhart that wanted ALL spacers, including loose spacers counted as wheel weight. Scott was told that the spacer needed to be welded to the wheel to be included in wheel weight.

 

Read it here: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4273

 

After the rules came out, Al addressed this rcr and said the same thing, spacer must be permanently attached to the wheel to count as weight. Quote:"RCR to specify wheel spacers are included in "wheel" for min weight purposes: doing so creates a very difficult enforcement situation and thats the real business case for keeping it as is. If you want your spacer to count as part of the wheel, permanently attach it to the wheel. ".

 

Read it here: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4306

 

Not sure why this is news to folks who are watching the rules process, or am I missing something? Thanks for your patience Glen, and for posting the same remarks one year later.

 

Chuck

CMC#14

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Glenn
There was an rcr #17 submitted last year, by Scott Lockhart that wanted ALL spacers, including loose spacers counted as wheel weight. Scott was told that the spacer needed to be welded to the wheel to be included in wheel weight.

 

Read it here: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4273

 

After the rules came out, Al addressed this rcr and said the same thing, spacer must be permanently attached to the wheel to count as weight. Quote:"RCR to specify wheel spacers are included in "wheel" for min weight purposes: doing so creates a very difficult enforcement situation and thats the real business case for keeping it as is. If you want your spacer to count as part of the wheel, permanently attach it to the wheel. ".

 

Read it here: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4306

 

Not sure why this is news to folks who are watching the rules process, or am I missing something? Thanks for your patience Glen, and for posting the same remarks one year later.

 

Chuck

CMC#14

 

Please let me buy you a beer this weekend. Well at least steal one out of Mosty's cooler.

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D Algozine

More questions that need resolved before an RCR can be written.

 

Why did you guys allow a spacer to be added, or as it has been said, "wheel modified"?

 

Its not written in the rules that you can add two separate parts and consider them one. Certainly the possibilities that this opens, by combining the two is something that should be considered before you approve it.

 

If a clarification was requested, why didn't you just say NO. And they amend the rule to be clear ?

 

If this is the interpretation of that vaguely written rule, then katty bar the door, because there is a lot of stuff to pick at.

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D Algozine
So go ahead and come up with an RCR with a version of the rule you can accept in addition to being good for CMC as a whole and post it up here along with an explanation of how you came up with it and you essentially get to provide the answer to those questions yourself.

 

I may, but non of this make any sense to me. It would be helpful to know the intent, and the thought process, and how they arrived at what they did.

 

If last year an RCR was written and approved, why doesn't it show up in the 2013 rules ?

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Glenn
If a clarification was requested, why didn't you just say NO. And they amend the rule to be clear ?

 

Because as a Director who also reads the forums, I knew the correct answer (even if I didn't agree with it). All Directors voted on this issue and Al posted here the result of that vote. The result is that all Direcotrs would enforce it the same way. I was asked this year (Arron has not raced CMC prior to this year) and I gave the answer. It wasn't a TX only secret. It wasn't anything that was hidden. It was posted here for all to see.

Dave - you keep saying to me you this and you that. I am only 1 of many Directors. I cast my vote. I give say what I have to say and let things fall where they may. You have no idea if i asked for this issue to be addressed in the rules. I very well could have. So I couldhave amended the rule, but w/out doing it through an official path, then itis just my local modified TEXAS rulebook. And I know we don't want that.

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BADVENM

Anyone know when Al will/may address some of these issues we've been discussing the past 5 days?

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suck fumes1548534743

I think he is still out of the country, I'm sure when he sees all this complaining he'll say something.

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MHISSTC
If last year an RCR was written and approved, why doesn't it show up in the 2013 rules ?

 

It wasn't approved. In the RCR I proposed that all spacers, both attached and non-attached be considered in total as part of the wheel weight. To paraphrase the response: "NO. If you want it to count a spacer as wheel weight, permanently attach it to the wheel. That is what is currently allowed, and we're not changing our position on it."

 

So, how about proposing something in the opposite direction. No spacers, either attached or non-attached shall be considered in the total wheel weight. Then you'd have to define how you are going to determine a wheel weight if they are already attached so you don't put the burden on the folks who have already permanently attached them to the wheel to take them off somehow or to require them to go out and buy new wheels because of the wheel change. And all of this has to be wrapped up in a nice package that shows how it benefits CMC as a whole, increases safety, lowers costs, ease of policing, etc., etc.

 

Like Glenn has said, it's 10x harder to disallow something once it's allowed.

 

But as has also been brought up here before, the rules SHOULD be clear enough to stand on their own without the need to follow the discussion on the forums to understand the rules.

 

So, again, can we come up with an agreeable clarification?

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Glenn
What is the point of having a minimum wheel weight?

 

No I'm serious.......I think we (racers) are entitled to one or more of the directors or series director to explain to ALL why there is a minimum weight limit? And exactly how and why they arrived at the current weights.

 

I think one or more RCR's could be written, but we need to know the answers to the questions above.

 

Last time, really.

 

Way back in the olden days even before 4th gens were CMC legal the lightest OEM wheel for CMC legal platforms was the 3rd gen wheel (GTA's). Obviously we all agree that OEM wheels should be legal. They were commonly known to be 16lbs. So the limit was set to 16lbs. Move forward to 17" wheels and the lightest known OEM 17" wheel was the 4th gen 17x9 2000-2002 SS wheel. They are 19lbs. Following the same path as before, we felt that was a fair start. But so we didn't paint ourselves into a corner we dropped it 1lb to be safe. 18lbs sound like a good safe number. It was set.

Now myself, I asked that ANY OEM wheel that was less than the 9.5" width be allowed no matter the weight. For example, I felt that the OEM 17x8 Ford wheels should be legal even if they were 16lbs (as raced). Why? Well that is a great size for 255 17 RA1. I would give up a little grip to drop a few lbs in unsprung mass/rotational mass. This could work out well for some track layouts. This would allow for some "playing around" and seeing what works best. Some of us like doing that kind of thing.

Obviously my request didn't pass. I'm OK with it. Not everything I want gets put into the rules. Some stuff I don't want gets in there too.

 

Does that answer your question?

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Glenn
Anyone know when Al will/may address some of these issues we've been discussing the past 5 days?

 

Out of country. I did send him a text yesterday. He did not answer.

It may be a week or more before he gets back. I assume that is why Todd posted - Al likely asked him to.

Surely you don't expect him to say anything different that what he did last November do you?

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Glenn
So, again, can we come up with an agreeable clarification?

 

I bet we can. It will have to wait on Al though.

For the time being, I'm having T shirts made for all the Texas folks that say "Ask me about my wheel spacers!"

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MHISSTC

See, it's all right there under 7.31 Wheels/Tires.

 

mosesHeston2703_468x611.jpg

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MHISSTC
So, again, can we come up with an agreeable clarification?

 

I bet we can. It will have to wait on Al though.

For the time being, I'm having T shirts made for all the Texas folks that say "Ask me about my wheel spacers!"

 

...and diff covers. Don't forget the diff covers.

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