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wheel weight determination and policing

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Glenn

We can put that on the back!

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suck fumes1548534743
So, again, can we come up with an agreeable clarification?

 

I bet we can. It will have to wait on Al though.

For the time being, I'm having T shirts made for all the Texas folks that say "Ask me about my wheel spacers!"

 

I WANT ONE!!!! That's freakin hilarious!!

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D Algozine
What is the point of having a minimum wheel weight?

 

No I'm serious.......I think we (racers) are entitled to one or more of the directors or series director to explain to ALL why there is a minimum weight limit? And exactly how and why they arrived at the current weights.

 

I think one or more RCR's could be written, but we need to know the answers to the questions above.

 

Last time, really.

 

Way back in the olden days even before 4th gens were CMC legal the lightest OEM wheel for CMC legal platforms was the 3rd gen wheel (GTA's). Obviously we all agree that OEM wheels should be legal. They were commonly known to be 16lbs. So the limit was set to 16lbs. Move forward to 17" wheels and the lightest known OEM 17" wheel was the 4th gen 17x9 2000-2002 SS wheel. They are 19lbs. Following the same path as before, we felt that was a fair start. But so we didn't paint ourselves into a corner we dropped it 1lb to be safe. 18lbs sound like a good safe number. It was set.

Now myself, I asked that ANY OEM wheel that was less than the 9.5" width be allowed no matter the weight. For example, I felt that the OEM 17x8 Ford wheels should be legal even if they were 16lbs (as raced). Why? Well that is a great size for 255 17 RA1. I would give up a little grip to drop a few lbs in unsprung mass/rotational mass. This could work out well for some track layouts. This would allow for some "playing around" and seeing what works best. Some of us like doing that kind of thing.

Obviously my request didn't pass. I'm OK with it. Not everything I want gets put into the rules. Some stuff I don't want gets in there too.

 

Does that answer your question?

 

"You" means directors, not any one particular individual. I have no idea how any of this has transpired or what the whole history is.

 

I read the rules, which is ironic, because often times new comers are told to quit asking dump questions and read the rules. Well I read the rules........nothing about permanently adding a spacer to make weight.

 

And why does a racer need to submit an RCR. Cant directors fix a potential problem before it gets too big? Nearly all directors are also racers, correct?

This seems pretty straight forward to me, and I assume many others. Clarify the rule to eliminate buying light weight wheels and adding spacers to make weight, before it turns into an "out spending" the next guy problem. You guys (directors) know what wheels everyone are using . you know there weights . Make the rules so you cant buy expensive light weight wheels.

 

Thanks for the insight into how directors arrived at 18lbs.

Makes pretty good sense.

Reality is no one can get 18lbs wheels unless they buy custom or......

modify a wheel and include the spacer. Again, just say no and then amend the rule. You (directors) allowed a one off to set the bar, that can't be easily or cheaply be replicated. I thought that is the exact opposite of what CMC is about ??? So in effect, vast majority are not in a realistic ( $$$$) position to copy or replicate.

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BADVENM

Completely (sort of) off topic but something that one or two of us had thought of.

 

"Raced as is". When I heard this I thought about the amount of time after the race was over and the time the cars got dynode.

 

We raced 45 minutes, then parked the cars for at least 30-45 minutes, maybe an hour before wandering over to have trophy ceremonies. Meanwhile, everyones car was cooling off.

 

It may not be possible but to truly represent "raced as is", the top 4 cars should have been dynode straight off the track after the race. I couldn't prove it but it is possible that our 3rd place car might have been closer or below his torque number vs over it in which he was DQ'd. Or, it may not have mattered.

 

Point is, any way we can get the top finishing cars from the track straight on to the dyno for a truly representative hp/tq number?

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Den341548534727

Not sure why this is news to folks who are watching the rules process, or am I missing something? Thanks for your patience Glen, and for posting the same remarks one year later.

 

Chuck, No you have not missed anything.

But you have set the ball up for me to hit.

 

If you are NOT in the Texas region (I am not slighting the Texas region by any means) we do not have a Al or a Glenn to walk down to their trailer and ask for a interpretation of the rule. This is why we are complaining because it is not in the RULES. The rule book is the "controlled document" if it is not in the rule book too bad. I would look at the RULEBOOK and interprete the best I can from the information that is in front of me. I would not refer to a forum discussion for clarification. As the new Midwest series director looking at this issue with tunnel vision I would look at the rule:

 

7.31 Wheels/Tires

7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.

7.31.2 16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.

7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.

7.31.4 Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset.

and say:

Doesn't say anything about a spacer being weighed with the wheel so that is not even part of the equation. I would weigh the wheel and I would see a spacer glued or welded onto the wheel. At this point I would have to make a call. No matter what it will be the wrong call. Then competitor X would say it is legal per the forum. Then I would say but it is modified and it does not say you can do it in the RULEBOOK so you can't.

What my long winded point is trying to make is the rule book needs to stand on its own so it is functional for all regions that don't have a National director or a well versed series director at the event.

Bob

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Glenn

I don't see Arrons $205 to $260 each wheel as being too outrageous. Although I can't afford them, it is pretty attainable. For some of you guys, that is a weekends racing budget.

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suck fumes1548534743

So you're saying since one person (me) actually asked questions and got clarification, went and bought two sets of wheels based on that clarification, passed tech etc. Now I'm just supposed to try and sell wheels that are permanently modified??? Really?? Seems like you are only thinking about yourself here. You guys haven't bought these so therefore are not losing money if they are banned, yet you could care less about the people who have bought them and would loose a lot of money because some just don't want to prep their cars to the max potential. Like I said the Enkeis are a cheap CMC option over having to buy CCW's or whatever brand you choose and nothing is stopping you guys from getting them.

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D Algozine
I don't see Arrons $205 to $260 each wheel as being too outrageous. Although I can't afford them, it is pretty attainable. For some of you guys, that is a weekends racing budget.

 

Are you suggesting we (current racers) sell the 8 to 12 to 16 wheels that we have a go out and buy 8 to 12 to 16 brand new $200 to $300 wheels?

 

Because if we don't, then one or more cars will have an advantage over the rest of the class, and it will take $2,500 to $3000 (a few sets) if you want to get back to equal.

Edited by Guest

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suck fumes1548534743
Not sure why this is news to folks who are watching the rules process, or am I missing something? Thanks for your patience Glen, and for posting the same remarks one year later.

 

Chuck, No you have not missed anything.

But you have set the ball up for me to hit.

 

If you are NOT in the Texas region (I am not slighting the Texas region by any means) we do not have a Al or a Glenn to walk down to their trailer and ask for a interpretation of the rule. This is why we are complaining because it is not in the RULES. The rule book is the "controlled document" if it is not in the rule book too bad. I would look at the RULEBOOK and interprete the best I can from the information that is in front of me. I would not refer to a forum discussion for clarification. As the new Midwest series director looking at this issue with tunnel vision I would look at the rule:

 

7.31 Wheels/Tires

7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.

7.31.2 16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.

7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.

7.31.4 Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset.

and say:

Doesn't say anything about a spacer being weighed with the wheel so that is not even part of the equation. I would weigh the wheel and I would see a spacer glued or welded onto the wheel. At this point I would have to make a call. No matter what it will be the wrong call. Then competitor X would say it is legal per the forum. Then I would say but it is modified and it does not say you can do it in the RULEBOOK so you can't.

What my long winded point is trying to make is the rule book needs to stand on its own so it is functional for all regions that don't have a National director or a well versed series director at the event.

Bob

 

 

Nothing is stopping you from picking up the phone and calling a director. All the phone numbers are in the rules.

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Glenn
Completely (sort of) off topic but something that one or two of us had thought of.

 

"Raced as is". When I heard this I thought about the amount of time after the race was over and the time the cars got dynode.

 

We raced 45 minutes, then parked the cars for at least 30-45 minutes, maybe an hour before wandering over to have trophy ceremonies. Meanwhile, everyones car was cooling off.

 

It may not be possible but to truly represent "raced as is", the top 4 cars should have been dynode straight off the track after the race. I couldn't prove it but it is possible that our 3rd place car might have been closer or below his torque number vs over it in which he was DQ'd. Or, it may not have mattered.

 

Point is, any way we can get the top finishing cars from the track straight on to the dyno for a truly representative hp/tq number?

 

Did you dyno cert your car right off the track for the 2013 season? I bet not. The car has to be legal at all times. That includes 2 hours after a race to 2 minutes after a race. If sitting for a few minutes made it illegal, it was pushing the limits too much.

 

I won Nats one year at Miller w/ post race dyno of 219hp (CMC1).

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D Algozine
Not sure why this is news to folks who are watching the rules process, or am I missing something? Thanks for your patience Glen, and for posting the same remarks one year later.

 

Chuck, No you have not missed anything.

But you have set the ball up for me to hit.

 

If you are NOT in the Texas region (I am not slighting the Texas region by any means) we do not have a Al or a Glenn to walk down to their trailer and ask for a interpretation of the rule. This is why we are complaining because it is not in the RULES. The rule book is the "controlled document" if it is not in the rule book too bad. I would look at the RULEBOOK and interprete the best I can from the information that is in front of me. I would not refer to a forum discussion for clarification. As the new Midwest series director looking at this issue with tunnel vision I would look at the rule:

 

7.31 Wheels/Tires

7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.

7.31.2 16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.

7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.

7.31.4 Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset.

and say:

Doesn't say anything about a spacer being weighed with the wheel so that is not even part of the equation. I would weigh the wheel and I would see a spacer glued or welded onto the wheel. At this point I would have to make a call. No matter what it will be the wrong call. Then competitor X would say it is legal per the forum. Then I would say but it is modified and it does not say you can do it in the RULEBOOK so you can't.

What my long winded point is trying to make is the rule book needs to stand on its own so it is functional for all regions that don't have a National director or a well versed series director at the event.

Bob

 

 

Nothing is stopping you from picking up the phone and calling a director. All the phone numbers are in the rules.

 

Point has been lost....again.

FYI, Bob is a director and is very well versed in the rules. Its the other stuff that get confusing.

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Steve91T

New guy building a CMC 4th gen with a question....

 

 

All of this discussion, which I think is valad on both sides, could be solved. Why can't CMC have a list allowable parts. Pick from these wheels, pick from these springs, pick from these shocks... and the list goes on.

 

Sell the parts that are no longer legal on ls1tech, or whatever the mustang guys use, and move on.

 

Fox bodies, this wheels. 4th gen, that wheel. Whatever.

 

Do you guys know the ass pain I went through to find stock exhaust manifolds for my 4th gen? Crap like this makes it hard for newbies to build a CMC car. Yet the rule is there to make it easier and cheaper. Not alway true.

 

Another thing that makes it tough to build a CMC car. There are a ton of options. I wish I could read rules that told me what to buy. I just purchased a set of Z06 wheels, with RA1's for $400. Done. I wouldn't have cared if there was another option for wheels that were 2 lbs lighter for 3 times the cost. I just need to get the car on the track. Someday, I might find the need to save up and buy a new set of wheels.

I think the rules are OK. But hearing that a director, or whatever he was, said that a rule was violated, but he thought it wasn't important and allowed it, doesn't seem right. Why would anyone, from this point on, bother to follow this rule? If someone can be disqualified for 1 hp, why can't someone be disqualified for a glove box? Rules are rules.

 

The reason I'm posting this is because its tough for new guys coming in, which is bad for.....new guys coming in.

 

These rules are from the 90's, lets tweak them to make it more clear, easier for new people coming in.

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dtisinger

Very simple.....Take the tire off the wheel and weight it....as raced.....pure and simple........either it makes the weight or it doesn't !!! The call at the Nationals was correct......................My two cents worth.....How easy is that....................

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Glenn
I don't see Arrons $205 to $260 each wheel as being too outrageous. Although I can't afford them, it is pretty attainable. For some of you guys, that is a weekends racing budget.

 

Are you suggesting we (current racers) sell the 8 to 12 to 16 wheels that we have a go out and buy 8 to 12 to 16 brand new $200 to $300 wheels?

 

Because if we don't, then one or more cars will have an advantage over the rest of the class, and it will take $2,500 to $3000 (a few sets) if you want to get back to equal.

 

If your only goal is to win, and you feel you can't win w/out them, then yes. My goal is to race and be OK w/ what I do w/ what I have. I was once in a mindset where winning was everything. I won ALOT of races. I never had a 100% maxed car. I've won plenty of races w/ 19-20lb wheels (plus the weight of 2" worth of spacers) back when 16lb wheels were the "cat's ass".

But to answer you directly, no - I am not suggesting you sell what you have and buy something else to drop a couple pounds. I don't think that if the difference in you winning and coming in 2nd. You may think so, but I don't. I race in 9" wheels that are a massive 1-2 lbs over the minimum. I run 12" rotors and 2 piston brakes. I race my ass off and I don't blame my car for not winning.

 

 

Are you suggesting we (current racers) sell the 8 to 12 to 16 wheels that we have a go out and buy 8 to 12 to 16 brand new $200 to $300 wheels?

 

You know what this sounds like?

 

Are you suggesting we (current racers) go to the alingnent shop prior to each race weekend a use a different alignment set-up for different tracks and clockwise vs counter clockwise? We have to spend that money having alignemnts done 5-6 times a year? I have to test that set-up to see if it works? I have to try different air pressure settings to see what is faster? But that uses up tires!

 

I'm not saying anything but that you have to be compliant w/ the rules. Beyond that, work as hard as you want and spend what you want w/in the limits of the rules.

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D Algozine
So you're saying since one person (me) actually asked questions and got clarification, went and bought two sets of wheels based on that clarification, passed tech etc. Now I'm just supposed to try and sell wheels that are permanently modified??? Really?? Seems like you are only thinking about yourself here. You guys haven't bought these so therefore are not losing money if they are banned, yet you could care less about the people who have bought them and would loose a lot of money because some just don't want to prep their cars to the max potential. Like I said the Enkeis are a cheap CMC option over having to buy CCW's or whatever brand you choose and nothing is stopping you guys from getting them.

 

Yah, I'm thinking about myself.......and the other couple hundred other CMC racers who followed the rule book.

No one, at least not me, are saying that you did anything wrong, and it would really suck for you if the clarification was undone. Not being a smart a$$, but "IF" that happened I think we should pass the hat to offset your costs.

 

Regarding your comment about no one wants to prep there car to the max patential........ I can't find anything nice to say so.....

Oh wait, there are rules in the book and then there are clarifications in a thread on a forum.

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Reggie Brown

Guys, as a new racer to CMC it's funny to see this stuff. You see it in any car and in every series.

 

A REAL racer will always look for grey areas in the rulebook. When you are talking about a class like CMC, where HP is the same, weight is a HUGE issue. Even more so for rotating weight.

 

I have been hearing/reading about this since nationals. In my opinion, the guy was legal for that race. His "wheel" made the 18lb limit. He was smarter than everyone else and found an advantage. Deal with it.

 

Moving forward, it's an easy change to make. Make the rule read that the wheel must weight 18lbs in it's stock, unmodified, or OEM form. Problem solved.

 

That said, I think it's a whole hell of a lot easier to set a new weight for the wheel, tire, combo. Take it off the car and weigh it, super simple.

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Glenn
Moving forward, it's an easy change to make. Make the rule read that the wheel must weight 18lbs in it's stock, unmodified, or OEM form. Problem solved.

 

Not really. We would have to limit wheels to readily available off the shelf wheels (no custom stuff) and require them to be made of metal.

 

As it is now, Arron's wheels can be duplicated by anyone w/ access to a 5 axis CNC. They wouldn't have a welded on spacer, but you wouldn't be able to tell by measuring it.

 

You guys gotta figure out if your unhappy w/ the allowed use of any wheel that is 18lb's, or the 18lb part.

 

Didn't we get rid of the reason we allowed 17's and big brakes? Get rid of those and drop the power back down to 230hp and I would be happy.

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CMC#11

As it is now, Arron's wheels can be duplicated by anyone w/ access to a 5 axis CNC. They wouldn't have a welded on spacer, but you wouldn't be able to tell by measuring it.

 

You guys gotta figure out if your unhappy w/ the allowed use of any wheel that is 18lb's, or the 18lb part.

 

I completely agree!!!!

 

Would there have been this much of a stink if Aaron had showed up with an unmodified set of Jongbloed's, Forgelines, or CCW's that were 18 lbs and cost way more than $1,000?

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MHISSTC
Would there have been this much of a stink if Aaron had showed up with an unmodified set of Jongbloed's, Forgelines, or CCW's that were 18 lbs and cost way more than $1,000?

 

Nope... ...which is silly all by itself, but at least the legality of it wouldn't require what seems to be a Texas centric interpretation. The key term there is "unmodified".

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CMC#11
Would there have been this much of a stink if Aaron had showed up with an unmodified set of Jongbloed's, Forgelines, or CCW's that were 18 lbs and cost way more than $1,000?

 

Nope... ...which is silly all by itself, but at least the legality of it wouldn't require what seems to be a Texas centric interpretation. The key term there is "unmodified".

So an "unmodified" set of 18 lb $3,000 wheels are ok but a "modified" set of 18 lb $1,000 wheels shouldn't be legal?

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MHISSTC
So an "unmodified" set of 18 lb $3,000 wheels are ok but a "modified" set of 18 lb $1,000 wheels shouldn't be legal?

 

Exactly why the rule needs to be clarified in writing and not by interpretation.

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suck fumes1548534743

I understand making the rules more clear but modifying a set of light wheels makes a heck of a lot more sense and is more attainable for the masses vs having to buy a $3000 set of wheels! I had fikse on the phone before nationals asking them about building me a set of wheels and even with my wholesale discount it was still $650/wheel. So I went on a quest to find a cheaper option and found that the enkeis were a better, cheaper solution. Hence making some phone calls to higher officials. So if you guys want the rules to be more clear, great I'm all for it but nothing should change as far as what is allowed and what's not.

Edited by Guest

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MHISSTC
So if you guys want the rules to be more clear, great I'm all for it but nothing should change as far as what is allowed and what's not.

 

Grandfathering in certain parts is not new to CMC. Do you have any suggestions on specific wording?

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suck fumes1548534743

Just add "spacers may be permanently attached to any metal wheel to achieve the 18 pd minimum"

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Glenn
Would there have been this much of a stink if Aaron had showed up with an unmodified set of Jongbloed's, Forgelines, or CCW's that were 18 lbs and cost way more than $1,000?

 

Nope... ...which is silly all by itself, but at least the legality of it wouldn't require what seems to be a Texas centric interpretation. The key term there is "unmodified".

 

 

You have already been shown where it was publicly announced almost a year ago that this was legal. So that is enough w/ the Texas bashing. This is a National forum and the National Director posted it here. To continue with those comments only shows your lack of seriousness in resolving what you feel is a problem. It points to what I see as a desire to just keep on bitching about something, anything for who know what reason.

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