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wheel weight determination and policing


MHISSTC

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So you're saying the rule was fine until someone actually utilized it?

 

Nothing to add or reply...Just wanted to capture this.......in case it gets erased.

 

I am with Arron. Sounds more like you didn't understand what was allowed and now your upset. That is ok. The goal of the rules was to limit light wheels. This has been the goal for as long as I have been in CMC. By placing a weight minimum, folks can win on OEM just as easily as $3k a set wheels.

 

Dave - have you raced your CMC car yet?

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So you're saying the rule was fine until someone actually utilized it?

 

Not at all what I've been trying to say. What really matters is what the rule intends to say, and what it actually says. THEN, it's about how the rule is interpreted and enforced.

 

My biggest bone of contention lies with the inherent contradiction in this particular issue. The rules say you can't (can't modify unless specifically allowed), but it's actually legal because the explanation for a rejected RCR said so on the forum. I honestly don't care if it's legal or not, it's the fact that it was judged legal when the rulebook clearly said it wasn't.

 

 

There are a lot of rules in the book that just make no sense whatsoever: You can have adjustable spring perches, but only if they're not adjustable and require shims for adjustment. Huh?

You may not purchase a diff cover with fill and drain holes, but you may weld a drain to your stock cover. It might be a performance advantage. What?

Now we have light wheels modified with a spacer to conform to the minimum weight, but apparently it's too hard to add the weights of a loose wheel and spacer. Really?

 

I think you get my point here. It certainly looks to me like the current rulebook is a patchwork-quilt of modifications, adjustments, included changes, etc., and I think it's high time that the rules are looked at IN TOTO to make sure they actually still make sense. The wheel issue in question is merely a catalyst.

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So you're saying the rule was fine until someone actually utilized it?

 

Nothing to add or reply...Just wanted to capture this.......in case it gets erased.

 

I am with Arron. Sounds more like you didn't understand what was allowed and now your upset. That is ok. The goal of the rules was to limit light wheels. This has been the goal for as long as I have been in CMC. By placing a weight minimum, folks can win on OEM just as easily as $3k a set wheels.

 

Dave - have you raced your CMC car yet?

 

So....then COST isn't a concern ? That seems odd

A custom wheel will permit the spending of money to have an advantage over the field, which by rule, is not the intent of the class. It has already been explained exactly how this can /was achieved, so I won't repeat....who am I kidding of course I will. Standard/typical/inexpensive/widely available wheels can not be purchased and used with spacers and be 18lbs.

 

Simple question (repeating), but only a few have responded:

Does CMC want custom wheels in the class ?

 

My car..........No, not yet. Are you asking as a friendly gesture, or suggesting something else?

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........,but it's actually legal because the explanation for a rejected RCR said so on the forum.

 

The RCR was for counting spacer weight towards wheel weight. It wasn't anymore complicated than that. The responce to the RCR was "No." If you want it to count, attach it permanently. Is this where it make Arron's wheels legal? No. Arrons wheels were legal prior to this as the rules sets the guidlines the wheel must meet. By the rules stopping where they do (diameter, width, weight), everything w/in those guidlines is legal. MODIFIED or NOT. Offset is open. OPEN. He changed the OFFSET. He made them legal w/ that change.

 

You may not purchase a diff cover with fill and drain holes, but you may weld a drain to your stock cover. It might be a performance advantage.

 

The reason these are not legal - axle stiffening and bearing cap preload. That is the only reason OEM coveres are required. The Directors gave in w/ the fill/drain plug change. In the past, even that wasn't allowed. Instead of not being good w/ the change, you want more change. There is no reason to allow aftermarket covers. The rule allows everything you want and prevents everything the Directors don't want. Sour graps at this point.

 

I think you get my point here. It certainly looks to me like the current rulebook is a patchwork-quilt of modifications, adjustments, included changes, etc., and I think it's high time that the rules are looked at IN TOTO to make sure they actually still make sense. The wheel issue in question is merely a catalyst.

 

Can't wait to see the results of all the hard work your going to put into RCR's in the coming months.

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So you're saying the rule was fine until someone actually utilized it?

 

Nothing to add or reply...Just wanted to capture this.......in case it gets erased.

 

I am with Arron. Sounds more like you didn't understand what was allowed and now your upset. That is ok. The goal of the rules was to limit light wheels. This has been the goal for as long as I have been in CMC. By placing a weight minimum, folks can win on OEM just as easily as $3k a set wheels.

 

Dave - have you raced your CMC car yet?

 

So....then COST isn't a concern ? That seems odd

A custom wheel will permit the spending of money to have an advantage over the field, which by rule, is not the intent of the class. It has already been explained exactly how this can /was achieved, so I won't repeat....who am I kidding of course I will. Standard/typical/inexpensive/widely available wheels can not be purchased and used with spacers and be 18lbs.

 

Simple question (repeating), but only a few have responded:

Does CMC want custom wheels in the class ?

 

My car..........No, not yet. Are you asking as a friendly gesture, or suggesting something else?

 

Cost isn't a concern when the weight requirement prevents them from being legal. Your looking at this from an F1 level of detail all the while racing (or soon to be) a polished turd in comparison. The moving of 1/2 lb of weight from the outside of the wheel to the inside of the wheel ain't going to show up in the lap times of a CMC car, no matter the level of prep. Sure, on paper it will, but show me it translates over to real world.

 

About your car..... How about you race the F'ing thing before you become an expert on what will ruin the class. Sure, you have run AI, got it.... But AI ain't CMC.

 

If what worked on paper worked in real life, CMC cars wouldn't pass AI cars on track. 100 more HP, less weight and downforce would dictate they would always be faster.

 

Done with you guys. The rules are there. Don't get pissed when someone see's in the rules something you don't, or have a different level of understanding you don't have. Its LIFE. Get over yourself. The rules don't need to be changed when Dave and Dave don't see it before anyone else. This should be a big year of RCR's from both of you. Otherwise your just a couple of keyboard warriors looking for a fight.

 

Hate to be like this, but there just does not seem to be an answer your OK w/ or an end result your willing to accept.

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........,but it's actually legal because the explanation for a rejected RCR said so on the forum.

 

The RCR was for counting spacer weight towards wheel weight. It wasn't anymore complicated than that. The responce to the RCR was "No." If you want it to count, attach it permanently. Is this where it make Arron's wheels legal? No. Arrons wheels were legal prior to this as the rules sets the guidlines the wheel must meet. By the rules stopping where they do (diameter, width, weight), everything w/in those guidlines is legal. MODIFIED or NOT. Offset is open. OPEN. He changed the OFFSET. He made them legal w/ that change.

 

And with that change gained a performance advantage over a "legal" wheel plus loose spacer which accomplishes exactly the same thing. That's absolutely insane. Is it really the intent of the rules to allow a performance advantage based on a few tack-welds? A 16lb wheel with a tacked-on 2lb spacer will have a performance advantage over an 18lb wheel with a loose 2lb spacer. Again, what is the INTENT of the rule? To specifically allow and encourage custom wheels? At the moment, it sure looks that way.

 

 

You may not purchase a diff cover with fill and drain holes, but you may weld a drain to your stock cover. It might be a performance advantage.

 

The reason these are not legal - axle stiffening and bearing cap preload. That is the only reason OEM coveres are required. The Directors gave in w/ the fill/drain plug change. In the past, even that wasn't allowed. Instead of not being good w/ the change, you want more change. There is no reason to allow aftermarket covers. The rule allows everything you want and prevents everything the Directors don't want. Sour graps at this point.

Mighty nice of them to "give in" to make maintenance easier. Axle stiffening and bearing cap preload??? Really??? What EXACT performance benefit do you think that will accrue? We're not running non-DOT slicks where we could load the axles hard enough to bend them, and so what if the caps are preloaded? All that does is reduce maintenance and lengthen failure intervals. Sour grapes? No. More like neo-Luddism in action.

 

I think you get my point here. It certainly looks to me like the current rulebook is a patchwork-quilt of modifications, adjustments, included changes, etc., and I think it's high time that the rules are looked at IN TOTO to make sure they actually still make sense. The wheel issue in question is merely a catalyst.

 

Can't wait to see the results of all the hard work your going to put into RCR's in the coming months.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

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If what worked on paper worked in real life, CMC cars wouldn't pass AI cars on track. 100 more HP, less weight and downforce would dictate they would always be faster.

 

And when was the last time the CMC leader finished ahead of the AI leader? That a front-runner CMC driver could pass a back-marker AI driver is no shock.

 

Done with you guys. The rules are there. Don't get pissed when someone see's in the rules something you don't, or have a different level of understanding you don't have. Its LIFE. Get over yourself. The rules don't need to be changed when Dave and Dave don't see it before anyone else. This should be a big year of RCR's from both of you. Otherwise your just a couple of keyboard warriors looking for a fight.

 

Hate to be like this, but there just does not seem to be an answer your OK w/ or an end result your willing to accept.

 

So far, none of the questions we've asked have actually been answered. "Dave and Dave" also just might represent the "new blood" in CMC, one being active for a relatively short time, and the other coming in from a different series. Is it really your intention to tell the "new blood" to go find another sandbox? Is that your plan for growing the series? If you're "done with us," you might want to think about what would happen if WE decided that we're "done with you," and went back to AI, ran PT or ST, or went Spec Iron, where there's a cash payout... We WANT to be here, but we certainly don't NEED to be here.

 

Oh, and previous comments about "Well, here comes so-and-so's RCR again!" followed by chuckles around the director's table also doesn't inspire confidence that the relative merits of any given RCR will actually be taken seriously and discussed. NIH, NIMBY all seem to apply.

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I said on paper. That is what you guys are doing, evaluation rules on paper.

 

I wasn't done with you for 9 pages. I am now. I tried. I can't try anymore.

 

I welcome everyone to race CMC. But CMC will never fits everyone 100%.

 

Remember, I am not of many Directors voting on your RCR. If it has merit, it will be given a fair shake with or without my vote. Not sure why your worried.

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Thanks all for the contributions. Some very good points have been raised so far, but it doesn't appear anyone with strong opinions on this topic is going to be convinced a contradicting viewpoint has any merit. So be it.

 

So, where do we stand now?

 

I think with all the interest this thread has generated we can generally agree this rule needs to go beyond interpretation and be clarified in writing. This is going to have to be done by submitting a formal RCR to be followed by a decision from the Directors. What should your RCR submission say? That will depend upon your viewpoint, of which there are currently several.

 

Maybe this should be made a poll, but as I see it, these are the possible choices we are discussing here:

 

1. Rule is on the right track, but make sure there is an allowance in the rule that states wheels may be modified, and any wheel spacers permanently attached to the wheel will count towards the minimum weight of an otherwise bare and clean wheel.

 

2. Rule is on the right track, but make sure wheels may not be structurally modified (as opposed to cosmetically...think coatings like paint), and the minimum bare wheel weight does not include anything (including spacers that are either loose, or attached to the wheel in any manner) other than just the wheel itself.

 

3. Rule should be changed completely to reflect the "as raced" weight of the entire wheel/tire unit. This includes any balancing weights, permanently attached spacers, valve stems. etc., from any wheel/tire unit as it would be pulled from the vehicle following any race.

 

Each one has it's own merits and limitations, and it is possible to come up with additional variations of each. But I think those are the three main schools of thought being discussed. Did I miss any other main ideas from the last 9 pages of discussion?

 

One more idea I liked from the discussion: Include one decimal place in the minimum wheel weight. (16.0 lbs, or 18.0 lbs.) You'd likely have to weigh them on a scale more accurate than the ones used for weighing the vehicles, but this would eliminate any possible rounding errors or exploitation of rounding numbers that may entice folks to try and produce a set of wheels that are 17.6 lbs each because that will round up to 18 lbs.

 

I hope everyone (not just the normally vocal ones) with an opinion on this or other topics of concern follow though and make the effort to submit an RCR when the time comes to do so.

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So far, none of the questions we've asked have actually been answered. "Dave and Dave" also just might represent the "new blood" in CMC, one being active for a relatively short time, and the other coming in from a different series. Is it really your intention to tell the "new blood" to go find another sandbox? Is that your plan for growing the series? If you're "done with us," you might want to think about what would happen if WE decided that we're "done with you," and went back to AI, ran PT or ST, or went Spec Iron, where there's a cash payout... We WANT to be here, but we certainly don't NEED to be here.

 

Just been watching and listening (reading). Dave captures my feelings at this point. I am a GL CMC rookie this year. Finally have the car (and driver) running up with the top cars. Closely watching the rule swing this winter. If it swings in ways I think are silly/insane/questionable - you really want to lose more CMC drivers? Like Dave says, I can go run AI or PT or ST. Just going to hurt each regions car count. And that is a poor mentality to have here. We should be building the series with new drivers. We have a lot of people in the HPDE levels that have CMC able cars.

 

And for a Director to say "its OK if we lose some drivers"? Sorry, that is a poor management standpoint in my book. Would you tell employees that? Customers? I am a Group Leader too; I can an ensure you I think differently.

 

My thoughts in blue.

1. Rule is on the right track, but make sure there is an allowance in the rule that states wheels may be modified, and any wheel spacers permanently attached to the wheel will count towards the minimum weight of an otherwise bare and clean wheel.

 

I am not a fan of welding wheels from a structural and safety standpoint.

 

2. Rule is on the right track, but make sure wheels may not be structurally modified (as opposed to cosmetically...think coatings like paint), and the minimum bare wheel weight does not include anything (including spacers that are either loose, or attached to the wheel in any manner) other than just the wheel itself.

 

Like it. Wheel = wheel. Spacer =/ wheel. Unmodified may be a word needed for the wheel. The assembly is spacer+wheel+tire+balance weights (if any). The rule is to police the wheel of that assembly.

 

3. Rule should be changed completely to reflect the "as raced" weight of the entire wheel/tire unit. This includes any balancing weights, permanently attached spacers, valve stems. etc., from any wheel/tire unit as it would be pulled from the vehicle following any race.

 

Assemblies would be hard to weight. As tires wear they lose weight. That could ding someone of running until the cords are showing (hey, we've all finished there). And too close to rule option 1.

 

One more idea I liked from the discussion: Include one decimal place in the minimum wheel weight. (16.0 lbs, or 18.0 lbs.) You'd likely have to weigh them on a scale more accurate than the ones used for weighing the vehicles, but this would eliminate any possible rounding errors or exploitation of rounding numbers that may entice folks to try and produce a set of wheels that are 17.6 lbs each because that will round up to 18 lbs.

 

Should be 18.0 - three sig figs.

 

I hope everyone (not just the normally vocal ones) with an opinion on this or other topics of concern follow though and make the effort to submit an RCR when the time comes to do so.

 

Someone said unsprung weight doesn't matter? Did I read that right? Yes it does. There is an advantage. A 16 lbs wheel modified with a 2 lbs spacer + 26 lbs tire with an assembly package of 44 lbs. Compared to a 18 lbs wheel + 2lbs spacer (not attached to wheel) + 26 lbs tire with the assembly package at 46 lb. 2 lbs a corner is a significant savings for unsprung weight. Go ask a SM driver (noted, person who found grey in this rule was a SM driver). Less unsprung = quicker accel/decel response, steering inputs, braking...its it 1s a lap? No, but it can be a tenth or two. And with how we are in the regions I've raced -- generally that close to someone.

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As a rookie in CMC (and racing) I guess I'll throw my thoughts out here. If someone wants to spend $2,000 on one set of wheels to gain a 1/10 of a second a lap, more power to them. I'm not going to drop that much money for that little bit of gain. In fact I could probably take that $2,000 and spend it on a driving coach and get more for my money than I would spending it on wheels.

 

I think the majority of us here have a race budget. Some are going to spend more than others. Personally, I'm not going to spend that much money in an attempt to win a plastic trophy. Sure I would like to win, but ultimately I'm out there to have fun. If winning required me to buy $2,000 wheels, then I wouldn't be winning, but I wouldn't hold a grudge against people who did.

 

The only way you can make this class equal is to require parts x,y, and z to race. If you don't have those parts, you can't race, if you have other parts, you can't race. This still opens up another can of worms where people would probably start rebuilding engines and replacing used parts between races to gain a competitive advantage.

 

Ultimately I really don't see the big deal in letting someone spend that money on wheels. The limit is 18 lbs. As long as the wheels weigh 18 lbs as raced I don't see why any of this matters.

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As a rookie in CMC (and racing) I guess I'll throw my thoughts out here. If someone wants to spend $2,000 on one set of wheels to gain a 1/10 of a second a lap, more power to them. I'm not going to drop that much money for that little bit of gain. In fact I could probably take that $2,000 and spend it on a driving coach and get more for my money than I would spending it on wheels.

 

I think the majority of us here have a race budget. Some are going to spend more than others. Personally, I'm not going to spend that much money in an attempt to win a plastic trophy. Sure I would like to win, but ultimately I'm out there to have fun. If winning required me to buy $2,000 wheels, then I wouldn't be winning, but I wouldn't hold a grudge against people who did.

 

The only way you can make this class equal is to require parts x,y, and z to race. If you don't have those parts, you can't race, if you have other parts, you can't race. This still opens up another can of worms where people would probably start rebuilding engines and replacing used parts between races to gain a competitive advantage.

 

Ultimately I really don't see the big deal in letting someone spend that money on wheels. The limit is 18 lbs. As long as the wheels weigh 18 lbs as raced I don't see why any of this matters.

 

 

 

It is nice to see a rookie come in with a sold post. This the attitude we all should have. Most of us who have been around awhile do and it took a couple years to get there. This is a guy who "gets it".

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Glenn - did you just infer that I "don't get it". Don't mince words here. Blunt is acceptable for internet writing. We can't get inflection of tone otherwise.

 

If winning required me to buy $2,000 wheels, then I wouldn't be winning, but I wouldn't hold a grudge against people who did.

 

Substitute wheels for any part. Intent of this class was to be cost effective racing. We already allow 2k brake kits and suspension parts. Most have adopted and spent the coin on those parts.

 

The only way you can make this class equal is to require parts x,y, and z to race. If you don't have those parts, you can't race, if you have other parts, you can't race. This still opens up another can of worms where people would probably start rebuilding engines and replacing used parts between races to gain a competitive advantage.

 

Are we a "spec" class or no? Spec Miata and Spec 944 - you have specific part and manufacture limits. And they tear down motors all the time for every little bit. That's a choice, but not a requirement.

 

Ultimately I really don't see the big deal in letting someone spend that money on wheels. The limit is 18 lbs. As long as the wheels weigh 18 lbs as raced I don't see why any of this matters.

 

We are defining "wheels" more than anything. Wheel itself was 16 lbs. Modified to become 18 lbs.

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As a rookie in CMC (and racing) I guess I'll throw my thoughts out here. If someone wants to spend $2,000 on one set of wheels to gain a 1/10 of a second a lap, more power to them. I'm not going to drop that much money for that little bit of gain. In fact I could probably take that $2,000 and spend it on a driving coach and get more for my money than I would spending it on wheels.

 

I think the majority of us here have a race budget. Some are going to spend more than others. Personally, I'm not going to spend that much money in an attempt to win a plastic trophy. Sure I would like to win, but ultimately I'm out there to have fun. If winning required me to buy $2,000 wheels, then I wouldn't be winning, but I wouldn't hold a grudge against people who did.

 

The only way you can make this class equal is to require parts x,y, and z to race. If you don't have those parts, you can't race, if you have other parts, you can't race. This still opens up another can of worms where people would probably start rebuilding engines and replacing used parts between races to gain a competitive advantage.

 

Ultimately I really don't see the big deal in letting someone spend that money on wheels. The limit is 18 lbs. As long as the wheels weigh 18 lbs as raced I don't see why any of this matters.

 

 

 

It is nice to see a rookie come in with a sold post. This the attitude we all should have. Most of us who have been around awhile do and it took a couple years to get there. This is a guy who "gets it".

 

Wait a minute....I thought guys with little to no CMC racing are supposed to shut the F$&% up.

Or is that just ME?.... Oh...unless they agree with you....Now I get it.

 

"Spend what ever you want I don't care" Makes no sense to me. I do care, as do many others, and so should you, if you want to maintain the spirit of the class.

WTF...one guy spends $2000 and gains 2/10...one guys spends $3000 and gains 3/10. THIS IS A COST CONTAINMENT...NO ADVANTAGE CLASS. Not my words or rules. This is a fact...no opinions needed.

 

What the F#@$ happened to "don't look for advantages in the rules...this is not that type of class?"

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What the F#@$ happened to "don't look for advantages in the rules...this is not that type of class?"

 

What happened was Al threw it out the window and Glenn is being a good soldier and backing his Texas Boss.

 

Once you guys realize that Glenn can have no other opinion you'll quit badgering him. By my count there are (3) other Regional Directors that have already spoke out against this issue. Let them vote on the Rules this winter.

 

Sidney

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We've been using a Mustang wheel in this discussion. How does this (if at all) impact the GM folks?

 

I have to run a 4lb chunk of billet AL at each corner to even make a 19lb 4th gen wheel fit. If the wheel won't fit my car without the 4lb adapter, can I go out and buy 14lb wheels since offset is open and these just correct the offset?

 

I had the discussion with my CMC director this weekend about things that are legal "per the rules". I let one out of the bag last year with the close ratio trans, but there's a laundry list sitting on a clipboard in the garage if we're going to be ok with a "Spec Miata" CMC car.

 

Are we going to build cars to the letter of the rules or the intent of the rules? If it's letter, game on, already accomplished that in AI, but my wallet would be a lot happier if we were going with the intent, which is cheap, close racing.

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Tangent, but it touches my spec comment - why do we have multiple cars in this class?

 

Intent was cheap, close, wheel-to-wheel racing with the manufacture and vehicle we dig.

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What the F#@$ happened to "don't look for advantages in the rules...this is not that type of class?"

 

What happened was Al threw it out the window and Glenn is being a good soldier and backing his Texas Boss.

 

Sidney

 

I wish you knew how wrong you are on this. Glenn has not been a "good soldier" since he left the Marines! I have seen Glenn and Al up in each others grill......in fact Glenn and I have been in each others grill. No matter what you think about the wheel rule you are wrong on this one.

I promise you Glenn does not like the way this rule has come down. If he had his way we would go back to CMC1 power, brakes, and tires and wheels.

 

JJ

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You guys need to know that Glenn loves CMC as much or more than anyone. Glenn HATES this rule! He is just telling you guys why it was ruled the way it was. He is not for welding spacers to the wheels. This was not Glenn's decision!

 

 

Even though I hate the idea of welding spacers to wheels, if custom wheels are okay in CMC I don't see a difference. Of course I'm still trying to figure out why $2000.00 brakes are okay in CMC. This CMC is not the CMC I started in six years ago. I'm not fast enough to run up front but the price to do so has gone up since the whole CMC2/S197 deal started.

 

 

JJ

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Substitute wheels for any part. Intent of this class was to be cost effective racing. We already allow 2k brake kits and suspension parts. Most have adopted and spent the coin on those parts.

 

 

I agree with you on this class being cost effective. I think ultimately no one thought that this wheel thing would ever become a problem. It has now come up, and was allowed, and now people seem to be all up in arms about it. It was stated by Al earlier in the year that the wheel is weighed as raced. If something is attached permanently to the wheel and the wheel makes weight, I really don't see the big deal in it. Do I think it's in the spirit of CMC to buy a set of $5,000 wheels made out of unobtainium that weigh 7 pounds and then add 11 pounds of weight on the center to make weight? No I don't think so. But I'll say it again, if someone wants to spend that much money to win a plastic trophy and a set of tires then by all means do it. I'm not going to spend my retirement to win an amateur race series.

 

It seems to me that if you don't want people spending $2,000 on a set of wheels, submit an RCR that limits the cost of wheels. I personally don't think you could ever gain much of an advantage by welding a 4 lb spacer to a 14 lb wheel to make the weight, but maybe I'm just an idiot.

 

As far as the $2k brakes and suspension goes, I think they saw the potential for spending high $$ there, so tried to limit it from the start. I honestly don't think they foresaw the wheels ever becoming a problem.

 

I swear some people take this stuff very personal and think that the rule was written solely to piss them off. Maybe instead of beating a dead horse for ten pages, you write an RCR and get input on that. Here I'll even start it for you.

 

---1) Disgruntled Driver / Hell / Car # 666 / Contact Info (email or phone, etc)

---2) Rule 7.31

---3) Recommended Revised Wording

7.31 Wheels/Tires

7.31.1

Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.

 

7.31.2

16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.

 

7.31.3

Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars . The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.

 

7.31.4

Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset

 

7.31.5

Wheels are weighed as raced. This includes any spacers or weights that are permanently attached to the wheels.

 

7.31.6

Wheel cost will be limited to less than $2,000.

 

---4) Reasoning for change MUST include at least 1 of the following:

---------->a) Willl decrease series cost because…it will limit spending on expensive wheels.

---------->b) Will increase driver safety because…it will stop Glenn from being attacked at the track by roving bands of crazy wheel people.

---------->c) Will promote series growth because...it shows we're trying to limit the cost of the class.

---------->d) Will improve competition because…less people will be worried about stupid things like wheels.

---------->e) Will provide more clarity because...the internet may explode if this debate goes on much longer.

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Hahaha! At least somebody understands the world of racing. There is no such thing as a "spec miata" prepped CMC car. Prepping any race car in any class is all dependant on the driver and how much he or she wants to win. If you want a no excuses car then build it to the edge that way you have nothing to blame but yourself if you lose. If you want to build a basic car that is track ready and just go out and have fun then that's your right and choice to do so as well. Everyone has different definitions of what a race prepped car is and racing will never be cheap no matter what class you're in. That's just a reality! I understand people wanting to contain costs and have things spelled out in the rules but people only have to obey what is said by the directors to be legal and what's in the rules spelled out for you. There is no rule or law that says you can't do this cause it'll piss everyone off and no one else thought about it before you. And the enkeis are way less than $2k a set so its still way cheaper than building a custom one off set.

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You guys need to know that Glenn loves CMC as much or more than anyone. Glenn HATES this rule! He is just telling you guys why it was ruled the way it was. He is not for welding spacers to the wheels. This was not Glenn's decision!

 

 

Even though I hate the idea of welding spacers to wheels, if custom wheels are okay in CMC I don't see a difference. Of course I'm still trying to figure out why $2000.00 brakes are okay in CMC. This CMC is not the CMC I started in six years ago. I'm not fast enough to run up front but the price to do so has gone up since the whole CMC2/S197 deal started.

 

 

JJ

 

Preach it borther Jerry.....

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As a rookie in CMC (and racing) I guess I'll throw my thoughts out here. If someone wants to spend $2,000 on one set of wheels to gain a 1/10 of a second a lap, more power to them. I'm not going to drop that much money for that little bit of gain. In fact I could probably take that $2,000 and spend it on a driving coach and get more for my money than I would spending it on wheels.

 

I think the majority of us here have a race budget. Some are going to spend more than others. Personally, I'm not going to spend that much money in an attempt to win a plastic trophy. Sure I would like to win, but ultimately I'm out there to have fun. If winning required me to buy $2,000 wheels, then I wouldn't be winning, but I wouldn't hold a grudge against people who did.

 

The only way you can make this class equal is to require parts x,y, and z to race. If you don't have those parts, you can't race, if you have other parts, you can't race. This still opens up another can of worms where people would probably start rebuilding engines and replacing used parts between races to gain a competitive advantage.

 

Ultimately I really don't see the big deal in letting someone spend that money on wheels. The limit is 18 lbs. As long as the wheels weigh 18 lbs as raced I don't see why any of this matters.

Swish!! *Crowd roars*

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What the F#@$ happened to "don't look for advantages in the rules...this is not that type of class?"

 

What happened was Al threw it out the window and Glenn is being a good soldier and backing his Texas Boss.

 

Once you guys realize that Glenn can have no other opinion you'll quit badgering him. By my count there are (3) other Regional Directors that have already spoke out against this issue. Let them vote on the Rules this winter.

 

Sidney

Wow , didn't think we were the personal attack crowd. Do not judge a mans character unless you have looked him in the eye. I would put both Al and Glenn up against anyone on the integrity scale. It's not in the rules but I don't see that being in the spirit of CMC either.
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