suck fumes1548534743 Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 LOL!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Sorry I couldn't resist. I remember that cat picture from 2010 but was wondering what it was about haha. Back a long time ago when the series meant something, the then National director and his Texas-based lackey were adamant about OEM replacement parts. I couldn't find a reasonably priced 1LE AC delete pulley for the ole speed racer, so I lobbied for a Chinese knock-off at about 1/3 the price. The then grand poo-bah nixed it explaining something about a slippery slope and that shame on me for suggesting using a part built by some poor Chinese kid working for a dollar a day. I then posted ... Juan dolla by rotsa lice And a legend was born ... On a side note ... I highly recommend that all of you sell your cars and rigs and buy guns. Peace -Out I have been around forever and have seen many of these cat post but never heard the back story. Come back Mitch.......we miss you! JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I certainly miss the people ... I certainly don't miss all this chest-thumping drama. On a side note, I snagged a new Rock River 20" AR with a Vortex Viper and VEPR mount for less than a set of Toyos. I can shoot it anytime I want for $10 and 10 minutes from my door. And when I'm done, no other shooter has beat the hell out of it. I highly recommend selling race car and rig and buy guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Haha yah AR's are cheap right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape1548534725 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I highly recommend selling race car and rig and buy guns. I'd think about it if I didn't live in Cook County. Still have an AWB... At least IL is getting concealed carry soon... This is the reason I don't like the idea of $1200 sets of wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted September 20, 2013 Members Share Posted September 20, 2013 Some very interesting reading. I agree there is reason to edit the wheel rule for next year so it is clearer regarding weight. Personally I believe the best alternative is to include permanently attached spacers in the "weight", as we have stated in the past, but happy to think through alternatives again and discuss with the other directors during the rules revision period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 What are everyone's thoughts on the following: Unaltered, unmodified OEM wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width of 9.5". No minimum weight requirement. Aftermarket wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width width of 9.5". Required minimum weight of 20.0 lbs without tire, balancing weights and valve stem. Wheels must be reasonably clean at the time of being weighed to determine legality. Aftermarket wheels may be modified with permanent spacer, either bolted, welded or otherwise. Weight of wheel will be measured with permanent spacer in place. By raising the minimum weight requirement of the aftermarket wheels it will "even the playing field" for those who elect not to purchase light weight "racing wheels". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 What are everyone's thoughts on the following: Unaltered, unmodified OEM wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width of 9.5". No minimum weight requirement. Aftermarket wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width width of 9.5". Required minimum weight of 20.0 lbs without tire, balancing weights and valve stem. Wheels must be reasonably clean at the time of being weighed to determine legality. Aftermarket wheels may be modified with permanent spacer, either bolted, welded or otherwise. Weight of wheel will be measured with permanent spacer in place. By raising the minimum weight requirement of the aftermarket wheels it will "even the playing field" for those who elect not to purchase light weight "racing wheels". I like the OEM wheel part. I personally can live with your aftermarket wheel suggestion as I understand what you are trying to achieve with the changes, but I'm not sure even I am willing to raise the minimum 17" wheel weight to 20.0 lbs. That seems a bit limiting as we don't know what wheels will become available in the future, and it also definitely makes the 17" Enkei wheels illegal. The 17" x 9.5" Enkeis are actually not too bad as far as affordability goes, so I'm not sure we necessarily want to make them illegal. I'd rather see it very specifically written out that wheel modifications are allowed (even though I personally am not comfortable with that) and the spacer is included in the weight, or that wheel modifications are not allowed and/or the spacer is not part of the minimum weight. What if we went the opposite direction? Since the rule was originally written with an educated guess towards wheel weights that *might* be brought to market in the future, and it seems the Enkeis are a honest to goodness "reasonable" wheel, why don't we specify the minimum wheel weight of a maxi-sized 17" x 9.5" wheel is 16.0 lbs, and NOT include spacers as part of that weight, either permanently attached or not? Also, is the only reason folks are permanently attaching the spacer to the wheel in order to make the minimum wheel weight? If so, why don't we get rid of that implied requirement all together and eliminate the implied allowance to modify wheels at the same time? One more issue: What if I don't use maxi-sized wheels? I brought this up in previous years, but what if, for whatever reason, I choose to use an aftermarket 17" x 8" wheel? Do I still have to adhere to the minimum wheel weight we are applying to the larger 17" x 9.5" wheel that contains more material? Using the Enkei RPF1 as our benchmark along with their spec chart, the weight of a 17x9 is as low as 15.65 lbs, and the lowest published weight of a 16x8 is 15.55 lbs., and a 16x7 is as low as 13.7 lbs.. And thinking along those lines... I also have a question for those who may know as we go forward with tires. What is our tire commitment in CMC to Toyo? Are they going to make 16" tires available for us? Are there any plans to have a 275 wide 16" tire available? If the 16" tire and wheel combo continues to be viable, I think we also need to come up with a new *reasonable* weight value for the maxi-sized 16" wheels along with a plan of what to do with wheels that are smaller than the maximum sized allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 21, 2013 Author Share Posted September 21, 2013 crazy double posts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 What are everyone's thoughts on the following: Unaltered, unmodified OEM wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width of 9.5". No minimum weight requirement. Aftermarket wheels permitted with a maximum diameter of 17" and a maximum width width of 9.5". Required minimum weight of 20.0 lbs without tire, balancing weights and valve stem. Wheels must be reasonably clean at the time of being weighed to determine legality. Aftermarket wheels may be modified with permanent spacer, either bolted, welded or otherwise. Weight of wheel will be measured with permanent spacer in place. By raising the minimum weight requirement of the aftermarket wheels it will "even the playing field" for those who elect not to purchase light weight "racing wheels". I like the OEM wheel part. I personally can live with your aftermarket wheel suggestion as I understand what you are trying to achieve with the changes, but I'm not sure even I am willing to raise the minimum 17" wheel weight to 20.0 lbs. That seems a bit limiting as we don't know what wheels will become available in the future, and it also definitely makes the 17" Enkei wheels illegal. The 17" x 9.5" Enkeis are actually not too bad as far as affordability goes, so I'm not sure we necessarily want to make them illegal. I'd rather see it very specifically written out that wheel modifications are allowed (even though I personally am not comfortable with that) and the spacer is included in the weight, or that wheel modifications are not allowed and/or the spacer is not part of the minimum weight. What if we went the opposite direction? Since the rule was originally written with an educated guess towards wheel weights that *might* be brought to market in the future, and it seems the Enkeis are a honest to goodness "reasonable" wheel, why don't we specify the minimum wheel weight of a maxi-sized 17" x 9.5" wheel is 16.0 lbs, and NOT include spacers as part of that weight, either permanently attached or not? Also, is the only reason folks are permanently attaching the spacer to the wheel in order to make the minimum wheel weight? If so, why don't we get rid of that implied requirement all together and eliminate the implied allowance to modify wheels at the same time? One more issue: What if I don't use maxi-sized wheels? I brought this up in previous years, but what if, for whatever reason, I choose to use an aftermarket 17" x 8" wheel? Do I still have to adhere to the minimum wheel weight we are applying to the larger 17" x 9.5" wheel that contains more material? Using the Enkei RPF1 as our benchmark along with their spec chart, the weight of a 17x9 is as low as 15.65 lbs, and the lowest published weight of a 16x8 is 15.55 lbs., and a 16x7 is as low as 13.7 lbs.. And thinking along those lines... I also have a question for those who may know as we go forward with tires. What is our tire commitment in CMC to Toyo? Are they going to make 16" tires available for us? Are there any plans to have a 275 wide 16" tire available? If the 16" tire and wheel combo continues to be viable, I think we also need to come up with a new *reasonable* weight value for the maxi-sized 16" wheels along with a plan of what to do with wheels that are smaller than the maximum sized allowed. I like those ideas... I really like the idea of using the Enkei as a "benchmark" and taking wheel weight without the spacer. It would save money by not forcing one have the spacers welded on when the end result is the same either way. I would imagine the wheels would hold their value better if they were unmodified. I was just thinking of ways to stay within the original intent of the class - low cost racing. I DO NOT like the idea of purchasing custom wheel to meet with 18.0lb minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 I second that idea of lowering min weight to 16pds so we don't have to permanently add spacers! Best idea I've heard so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADVENM Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 Some very interesting reading. I agree there is reason to edit the wheel rule for next year so it is clearer regarding weight. Personally I believe the best alternative is to include permanently attached spacers in the "weight", as we have stated in the past, but happy to think through alternatives again and discuss with the other directors during the rules revision period. Whats the deadline for rule revisions to be submitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 Whats the deadline for rule revisions to be submitted? They haven't even been called for yet. This is just pre-discussion in anticipation of silly-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 I'm confused. Do you guys both drive that orange car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADVENM Posted September 22, 2013 Share Posted September 22, 2013 I'm confused. Do you guys both drive that orange car? Technically the car is mine. MHISSTC and I have built the car over the past 7 years. He is much more knowledgable about what parts will work on the car from the Fox era and SN95 era. He did drive it for a season about 2 or 3 years ago when I had some lower back issues. If for some reason I cant drive the car MHISSTC would be able to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 22, 2013 Author Share Posted September 22, 2013 I'm confused. Do you guys both drive that orange car? Together we are Team Incidental Contact I drove in 2010 and have worked on the car since day one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I second that idea of lowering min weight to 16pds so we don't have to permanently add spacers! Best idea I've heard so far! What about the rest of the CMC field across the entire country that all ready have multiple sets of wheels that are 19-24 lbs, not including spacers ? Instead of everyone else being at a disadvantage, why not make it equal by making the overwhelming majority of wheels the rule (per the original intent of the rule, before it was adjusted on the forum), beside they are widely available, widely used, and inexpensive. What is the logic to making one non-standard atypical (abnormal) wheel the standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMC#11 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I like keeping the same 18 lb minimum weight but clarify the rule to specifically address the permanently attached spacers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 I second that idea of lowering min weight to 16pds so we don't have to permanently add spacers! Best idea I've heard so far! What about the rest of the CMC field across the entire country that all ready have multiple sets of wheels that are 19-24 lbs, not including spacers ? Instead of everyone else being at a disadvantage, why not make it equal by making the overwhelming majority of wheels the rule (per the original intent of the rule, before it was adjusted on the forum), beside they are widely available, widely used, and inexpensive. What is the logic to making one non-standard atypical (abnormal) wheel the standard? This is nearly the identical response I got from my teammate after I posted the suggestion. He also reminded me of the 8 22+ lbs/each wheels (without spacers) he purchased new this year at a price that was about 40% less than the Enkeis. I wouldn't call the Enkei RPF1 wheel non-standard or abnormal, I'd call it a "benchmark". It really isn't overwhelmingly expensive for a light one piece wheel and it's only about 30-40% the price of the cheapest custom made two or three piece wheel. If you look at the polar opposite sides of the debate, we can rewrite the rule to favor the heavier wheels that most folks have at the expense of making the lighter wheels illegal, or we can rewrite the rule to allow the lighter wheel at the expense of making the folks with the heavier wheels feel like they are missing out on something and be compelled to ditch their heavier wheels in favor the lighter ones. Like Michael points out, there are other ways to approach the rule clarification. I'm pretty sure not everyone is going to be happy with whatever the result is. What you suggest as an RCR will depend upon your point of view. For us, the difference between the Enkeis and our current MBs is around 25 lbs of rotational mass, regardless of the spacers being permanently attached or not. Yes, I think every CMC driver would notice that amount of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 Something else to think about. If we lowered the allowed wheel weight for the 17" wheels to 16.00 lbs., I figured a corresponding lowering of the 16" wheel weight would put it right at about 14.75 lbs. What do you all think about a 16" minimum wheel weight of 14.75 lbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I wouldn't call the Enkei RPF1 wheel non-standard or abnormal, I'd call it a "benchmark". It really isn't overwhelmingly expensive for a light one piece wheel and it's only about 30-40% the price of the cheapest custom made two or three piece wheel. For us, the difference between the Enkeis and our current MBs is around 25 lbs of rotational mass, regardless of the spacers being permanently attached or not. Yes, I think every CMC driver would notice that amount of difference. I disagree that a 16.5 lb wheel is the benchmark in a class where typical wheels weigh 19-24 lbs. Pretty sure your 20-25 lb difference in rotating mass is "typical", and is a significant advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I like keeping the same 18 lb minimum weight but clarify the rule to specifically address the permanently attached spacers. Same here... The rule is not hard to understand as is, but just make a couple of small changes and it would be fine. I don't want to see light wheels become standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted September 23, 2013 Author Share Posted September 23, 2013 I like keeping the same 18 lb minimum weight but clarify the rule to specifically address the permanently attached spacers. Same here... The rule is not hard to understand as is, but just make a couple of small changes and it would be fine. I don't want to see light wheels become standard. That's the thing though, if you keep the current 18.00 lb minimum, but then allow spacers to be "permanently" mounted to the wheels and be counted towards that minimum weight, you have just made the light wheels a standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBody383 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I like keeping the same 18 lb minimum weight but clarify the rule to specifically address the permanently attached spacers. Same here... The rule is not hard to understand as is, but just make a couple of small changes and it would be fine. I don't want to see light wheels become standard. That's the thing though, if you keep the current 18.00 lb minimum, but then allow spacers to be "permanently" mounted to the wheels and be counted towards that minimum weight, you have just made the light wheels a standard. Can we write the rule to read/mean that you weigh EVERYTHING that is outboard of the rotor? I.e. whatever you would have to remove from the studs to remove the rotor counts in the weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted September 23, 2013 Share Posted September 23, 2013 I will vote for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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