suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 When are you going to race again? Last time I talked to you about your old car you said you had a Camaro that was getting turned into a racecar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Hell, I don't know. I'll be at Eagles Canyon to visit with the guys but only a remote chance I'll have the car there. Chump car has proven to be a far better value than CMC the last couple years so I've only managed a couple of CMC events. At this point there's a good chance I'll make 1/2 of next years events with the car I have but no way can I afford to build a Camaro any time soon, nor can I build the '99 Stang that's sitting here in the garage with a new motor. Hopefully Obama will get free citizenship to another country and business will turn around. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cozog1548534733 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 You don't need big brakes until you can hang with those on stock brakes. Best info in this thread. Only disagreement is that pad cost savings for wilwood calipers vs. stock pays off the calipers in 1 season. Doesn't stop any better, but saves money in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Bring what you have to the track. Learn to drive what you have to its fullest, then upgrade those things that are holding you back. A large number of CMC racers can't drive what they have under them to the limit. Too many guys run 230hp lap times w/ 260hp. Too many guys run 255/16 lap times on 275/17's. Too many guys run OEM brake lap times on big brakes. That is all I am saying. I agree the BB kits drive up the cost for the short term. Never denied it. Don't like it either. If it was just up to me, I would change it. You can blame the lack or part X for why your not running up front. But until your the highest placing guy in the field not running part X, your just not being honest w/ yourself. So we all now know how important 2lbs of relocated rotating weight is w/ regards to wheels, but we don't apply that same logic to the big brake kit rotors. You think a 13" rotor has the same weight as a 12" rotor? Likely not. My bet is the 13" one has more mass and it is located further out from the center. That has to affect lap times the same as running off the shelf 17x9.5" wheels that are 18lbs vs the new hotness of 16lb wheels mod’ed to 18lb. So just to make sure we are all keeping score.... 18lb wheels w/ a 2lb lighter outer mass are a class killer and in some circles are a result of lap times dropping 2-3 seconds. But 1" larger rotors that have a higher outer mass are a must have in order to run up front. You all realize that rotor has to be accelerated/decelerated right along w/ that wheel, right? So none of us think OEM brakes can run top times, right? Explain to me how I just finished 1st, DNF, 1st, 2nd out of 4 races w/ the DNF a result of contact in T1 of lap 1. I have 20lb wheels, small brakes and 9" vs 9.5" wheels. I ran heavy all weekend as well. My lowest post race weight was 3281 w/ a 3260 minimum (that is like racing w/ a 5th crappy OEM wheel dragging behind the car the whole race weekend!) The Sunday 1st and 2nd was from 10th and last (14th?) starting position. On Sunday I also had to run very used up rear tires due to damaged wheels/tires from the Sat DNF. Take your car to the track and have fun. Quantify your results by the car you have under you and the ability you have to drive it. Race to make yourself faster and better (not the same thing) and don't blame the rules for your complete lack of success. Ask anyone who races w/ me and they will tell you that I never blame the rules for not winning. I usually blame my lack of ability to have fresh tires or myself for making a mistake. If you feel that what I said above does not apply to you, then it didn't, or is an inaccurate representation of your POV, then it is, so don't feel the need to defend yourself. If you feel this applies to someone else, let them defend themselves. None of this was directed at any one single person. Posting this knowing someone will find a way to be offended by it. "I don't always win, but when I do, I do it w/ crappy brakes, junk wheels, and a miserable post race weight." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I applaud this message! Well said grasshoppa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) First off, no one and I mean not a single person commenting in this thread asked for a competitive balance related rules change. It is you who can't possibly fathom a person could ask for something in the interest of the series and not himself. I'm truly disappointed in your take on this issue. In fact you and I have discussed this very issue before and you are quick to accuse others of not being objective. You've accused others of not believing someone could be acting in the best interest of the series. Your competitive nature can not possibly allow you to believe that a guy could fight for the good of the series and not be out for his own personal track advantage. You are trying to put this issue onto the shoulders of those asking to save overall series cost as them personally trying to catch up to the front. This is exactly why things can't or won't change for the better, it's your competitive spirit that can't allow you to understand or believe that a guy could actually be acting for the good of the whole and not himself. The opinion you have delivered here is not in the best interest of CMC. From here forward, a request can not be valid unless it is received from Glenn, Aaron, or some other guy running at the front of the pack. Otherwise the request is not valid and you are only trying to compensate for your own shortcomings. No further RCRs will be accepted unless you are a series championship holder and multiple race winner. I told Al previously that I thought trying to make a positive difference on this forum was a waste of time but I followed his direction and it has failed. A person who truly cares about CMC and it's future regardless if he never runs another lab gets villainized as trying to change rules to put himself up front. You have exhibited this exact behavior many times before so I guess it's my own fault for expecting anything otherwise. For years I trusted management to do the right thing. I never once submitted an RCR, how many have you submitted? (you've submitted double digit RCR's some years and the majority were to benefit your own car, not the series, be honest) After watching the cost of CMC skyrocket the last few years I decided to try and make a difference. However a person can not have a valid request unless he can outrun Glenn first. That's a hell of way to run a series. In fact many series have been run into the ground this very same way. Just ask Aaron why he's here to begin with since he thinks your post is so admirable. Boudy Edited because beer and typing don't mix. Edited October 5, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsmith350 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 "I don't always win, but when I do, I do it w/ crappy brakes, junk wheels, and a miserable post race weight." That's funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 This class is still a heck of a lot cheaper than running a spec Miata. Plus I can justify spending money on a V8 car that lasts longer then spending money on a motor rebuild twice a year to gain 3hp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Only three pages in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 This class is still a heck of a lot cheaper than running a spec Miata. Plus I can justify spending money on a V8 car that lasts longer then spending money on a motor rebuild twice a year to gain 3hp. Some want to keep it that way. But in the manner that reasonable cost cutting requests are being interpreted here, you'll need a new place to run in few more years. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 This class is still a heck of a lot cheaper than running a spec Miata. Plus I can justify spending money on a V8 car that lasts longer then spending money on a motor rebuild twice a year to gain 3hp. So can you agree that if SM would have had the foresight to change rules that negated the need to rebuild engines in mid-season it might still be growing instead of seeing an exodus of cars and drivers? What would SM tell you if you asked for a HP limit or some other measure bring costs down? You would probably be told something like this: Bring what you have to the track. Learn to drive what you have to its fullest, then upgrade those things that are holding you back. You can blame the lack or part X for why your not running up front. But until your the highest placing guy in the field not running part X, your just not being honest w/ yourself. So none of us think OEM brakes can run top times, right? Explain to me how I just finished 1st, DNF, 1st, 2nd out of 4 races... Take your car to the track and have fun. Quantify your results by the car you have under you and the ability you have to drive it. Race to make yourself faster and better (not the same thing) and don't blame the rules for your complete lack of success. Posting this knowing someone will find a way to be offended by it. So hopefully you can also agree that when management responds to cost cutting rules request in this manner, nothing can change. See the assumption is clearly that the rules request is based solely on ones desire to catch the front of the pack. When is a cost cutting rule request legitimate then? From the statements given it appears that unless you are running up front you can't be honestly asking for something to benefit the series. That's F'D up and a primary reason SM and many others have tanked the tubes. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) SM numbers are actually sky rocketing because of the "spec" aspect of it and the sheer numbers in the races. I'm running spec iron next year because I see that class starting to take off like I saw SM take off in 2001. So you guys can go back to the way you were and wont have to worry about a new guy spoiling your fun next year since apparently my car has pissed more people off than open their eyes. Edited October 5, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 (edited) Your car has absolutely nothing to do with a single point I've made. Boudy Edit: In fact it's the S-197 that has caused the majority of cost escalation to everyone else. Including this brake issue. Edited October 5, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Alright then good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave1548534741 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Dave, With respect, I have to agree completely with your assertion that "big brakes" have a long term cost savings advantage. You are assuming that I'm completely against big brakes which indicates that you may not have really read my post more than a skim over and your resulting assumption is wrong. ONCE AGAIN STATED IN A DIFFERENT WAY, I'm all for 2 piece rotors and larger calipers as longs as they can be chosen and added to a guys car over time because MOST of CMC competitors can't run out and cut a $2000 check. What I am not for is a $2000 kit that is all proprietary and has to be purchased all at one time. 2 piece rotors are available in many flavors that run fine with stock brackets and calipers. $500 calipers are also available that will run on OEM or cheaply produced brackets. Stop Tech fits neither of those. If the cost of proprietary pieces needed to run big calipers were added to the caliper price, this problem would go away. Okay, just to recap: 13" 2-piece rotors are fine. Larger (4-piston) calipers are fine. "Click to buy" pacakages that include the above are not fine? It sounds to me like you're trying to legislate (did you submit an RCR?) against a specific package simply because it's not backwards-compatible with stock rotors. Am I getting the jist of it? Answer this: Which is better for the growth and prosperity of the series? A $2000 up front chunk for brakes or a scalable path to better brakes... Both are available and legal right now... I fail to see the issue. The up-front path isn't mandated. EDIT: Brembos are great and affordable, Wilwoods are great (if you can run them without knock back) and affordable, Stop Techs are double the entry fee of either of those. Boudy The OEM Brembo (2000 Cobra R) is a nice caliper, and is very serviceable for CMC-level duty. I don't know if there is an analogous caliper for the F-bodys. To this, you need to add two-piece rotors (floating hat design) and stainless lines (Goodrich or equivalent) to make a functional kit. Total cost for the calipers, rotors, and lines is around $1900, give or take. These are lug-mounted calipers, NOT radial. The Brembo GT series kits (radial-mounted calipers, 2-piece rotors, stainless lines) are illegal based strictly on their price point, which is a LOT closer to THREE thousand than it is two thousand. The Wilwood kits run around $1600 give or take, use radial-mounted calipers, and include the two-piece rotors (but NOT floating!) and stainless lines. We also collectively know that they tend to suffer from knock-back, which means that SOMETHING is flexing in their setup somewhere. If we assume it's the mounting bracket that's flexing, then add $200 or so to get some built that won't flex... If it's the caliper casting or rotor hat, then it's game over for that kit. Best guess is $1800-ish for a functional setup, possibly more if you want to go to floating rotors. The StopTech kit runs around $2000, give or take, and also uses radial-mounted calipers, two-piece rotors (floating) and stainless lines. Does not suffer from knock-back. It sounds to me like you are targeting not the price (since the others that you cite are in the same neighborhood dollar-wise) but the fact that the StopTech kit doesn't use OE rotor offset, and thus can't be used with stock rotors. I don't see how that makes any sense. If the individual car owner wants to take a linear upgrade path, he can. If he wants a solution-in-a-box, though, you have a problem with that as an option? Fact: You CAN piece together a CMC-legal kit that uses stock rotor offsets. The cost of that package is not materially lower than that of the StopTech kit, and if you factor in time and custom pieces, may well wind up being more. I just don't see what you're railing against. In the end, it's still up to the individual owner to make the choice, and it just seems like you're taking options off the table under the guise of cost containment. Look at it another way... Start with a car equipped with a stock brake "kit," which you have decided to upgrade to "big brakes." You need to buy calipers, which in turn will determine the thickness of the rotor, as well as the specifics of the lines. You also need to buy/fabricate mounting lugs, and that will determine the hat offset required. At that point, you need to buy calipers, mounts, hats, rotors, and lines. Add up all those parts costs, and that's the cost of the "kit." Given "$500" for rotors, "$500" for lines, brackets and misc, hardware, that leaves "$500" available for each caliper. You can spend less if you want, but you're still going to be in the neighborhood of $2000 any way you cut it, regardless of brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Well it's perfectly clear that the majority are perfectly happy and content spending $2000 on brakes. My Wilwoods cost $600 with brackets and stainless steel lines and I don't feel the need to run 2 piece rotors. Every year some new trinket comes out and causes a bunch of guys to run out and spend an ass load of money. This series was designed to not allow those things to go on and thus remain an affordable series. The Mission Statement has taken a new direction. - 302 motors had to spend $1500 on a Cobra top end kit to make 230 HP when a $200 cam would have done. - Now they have to add the said cam and headers to make 260. - Big breaks make me spend $600 over what I already had while others are spending $2000. - AST shocks has guys dumping Koni DA's to run out and drop $2000 on shocks. - Some are spending $1000 on illegal wheels and cobbling them into legality. Some things come from NASA HQ and are out of our control, but there seems to be no desire or concern to eliminate rules creep that is running the series up and up in cost to build and compete. In fact if it get's suggested then that those few get villainized and accused of alterior motives. So why would someone bother at all, which I'm asking myself now. I was here to help the series but you guys don't seem to want it. I'll say it again, "Racers are there own worst enemies!" I was told by Al not to submit my RCRs if they were already posted and to just add my request here. My additional RCR's will be sent to my round file because they are all cost saving related which nobody seems to care about. I'll drop it, spend until your heart's content. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I'm confused...... First off, no one and I mean not a single person commenting in this thread asked for a competitive balance related rules change. Not one person including myself. Not sure what this has to do w/ anything. It is you who can't possibly fathom a person could ask for something in the interest of the series and not himself. Easy to make statements. Not so easy to back up those statements. Your not talking about me with a comment like this. I take the majority of RCR's as someone wanting to make the series better. Not all, but the vast majority. Including yours here w/ a desire to back pedal the rules and disallow 13" brakes and 4 piston calipers. I get it. I want it. I 100% completely understand what you want to do - reduce the cost of racing CMC. You don't like $2000 brake kits being legal. I don't either. I have said this many times here and to you and in public. It is a pretty well known fact. I'm also a racer who cannot afford a brake upgrade like this. I'm on your side and would change it if I could. I'm one of 8. You have me sold. Work on the other 7. My previous comment was to counter your opinion (stated or implied) that these $2000 brake kits are required to win races. Required to run top times. Required to have fun. My last weekend of racing proved that is not the case. My compairison of the wheel issue to the brake issue was to illistrate that what makes light wheels more advantagious is also what makes OEM brakes not a major disadvantage. I'm truly disappointed in your take on this issue. Why? Because I encorage racers to race w/ what they have? Seems logical to me. Why not have a guy out racing on 16" wheels and OEM brakes while learning to drive and discovering if this hobbey is for him or not BEFORE he drops $15K-$20K building a CMC car. Once agian, I don't want $2000 brake kits in CMC. But it shouldn't be a reason why folks sit at home and not race. You are trying to put this issue onto the shoulders of those asking to save overall series cost as them personally trying to catch up to the front. This is exactly why things can't or won't change for the better, it's your competitive spirit that can't allow you to understand or believe that a guy could actually be acting for the good of the whole and not himself. Again.... I don't understand where your getting this. I think you are acting for the good of the series when you want to rid CMC of $2000 brake kits. I don't think you are when you tell folks they must have them to race. The opinion you have delivered here is not in the best interest of CMC. What opinion? The one of not liking $2000 brakes? The opinion of bring your car to the track and race what you have? The opinion of more is not always better? How do any of those opnions damage CMC? From here forward, a request can not be valid unless it is received from Glenn, Aaron, or some other guy running at the front of the pack. Otherwise the request is not valid and you are only trying to compensate for your own shortcomings. Man, you sure have a way of reading into what I posted. I have read it several times since you made this post of your and I just don't see where you got all this. I never once submitted an RCR, how many have you submitted? (you've submitted double digit RCR's some years and the majority were to benefit your own car, not the series, be honest). I haven't submitted double digit RCR's if you added up all the years I have been racing CMC. You got an inside track to behind closed doors w/ An un-named Director. If what you say is true, he will provide that info for you just make me look bad. How about we limit this to things you know for a fact and not a random guess. After watching the cost of CMC skyrocket the last few years I decided to try and make a difference. However a person can not have a valid request unless he can outrun Glenn first. Again, not what I said. What I said was the OEM parts are not holding you back if guys are finishing ahead of you on those same parts. Not sure how you got from A to B there. The post I'm responding to is pretty shocking. I have no idea how a post that was intended to get guys thinking and be honest w/ themselves was turned into a "Your opinion is crap until you are faster than me" chest thumping session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBody383 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 So you guys can go back to the way you were and wont have to worry about a new guy spoiling your fun next year since apparently my car has pissed more people off than open their eyes. Had you run mid-pack would people care? I think it's been good for us to get fresh eyes - makes the rules change process interesting but for us to be pretty close, generally, is good. First off, no one and I mean not a single person commenting in this thread asked for a competitive balance related rules change. Really? Not even the original request which was perhaps a way to give the OEM brakes, of any platform, a little more life? Come to ECR, bring the margarita machine, and let's catch up. Aaron can tell us how he does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yah I'll be there. On the fence as to whether I'll drive my CMC car one day? I still love the way that car drives. Drive by wire on the SI car drives me up the wall!!! I hate the lag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 And you already know how I did it. My wheels won the race for me remember? That's what the helicopter wizard said so its got to be true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudy1548534717 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 It's been brought to my attention that I was a bit unfair and hard on Glenn. Well I'll agree with that assessment and we spoke to clear the air. However, even though he's a big boy I unfairly ripped him in public so he deserves the respect of an apology in public. Although we often disagree in the method, Glenn has the best interest of the series at heart so I apologize for getting bent out of shape over much of nothing. As for Aaron, you should know that many have been enlightened by the creative ideas and performance you've gotten out of your car. Your championship stands and is something to be proud of. The stink over wheels is irrelevant, you were given permission and they were also deemed legal in post race inspection. You spanked the field by 10 seconds from what I understand and wheels sure as hell didn't account for that. I feel your frustration but you won it fair and square dude. What some of you other guys really don't understand is this: My car has the best of EVERYTHING, there's nothing that could be added to make it faster. Max power/torque, big brakes, premium suspension, bullet proof tranny/rear end, everything... The only thing that could possibly improve my personal results at the track is actually showing up more than twice a year. I've got $25K in that damned thing and I'd gladly put most of it back on the shelf for OEM to help the series. It's for this reason that I get infuriated and bent out of shape at the insinuation that I'm after anything other than the good of the series. Now Glenn's point is that high end parts being legal don't necessarily run the price of the series up because a guy doesn't need them until he can win without them. That is the most wonderfully idealistic notion I've ever heard. Unfortunately it's about as far from reality as can be. If X part is legal and a guy wins with it, the price of running the series will goes up by part X. It's human nature and for sure racer's nature. As I stated in my first post, outside of the need to match the S-197 there is no benefit to running big brakes in CMC. It runs cost up while doing nothing for competition. Since there is some serious confusion on what I'm after, here's my vision of a logical path to brakes: Step 1 - I assume all racers use SS braided brake lines. It can be done for $150 at any dirt track shop and is well worth the expense and highly recommended. This has always been legal and I don't think anyone argues. Step 2 - As a step up from OEM brakes, 2-piece rotors last longer than OEM rotors and require less maintenance. These can be installed for $500 regardless of what others have spent or claim they cost. This has always been legal and I support these as I don't believe they offer any competitive advantage although I have never added them to my own car. Step 3 - The next step would be the recently made legal larger calipers. Obvious options are Wilwood, Brembo, and Stop Tech to my understanding. The costs to install are $600, $1000, and $2000 respectively. I personally run Wilwood but would prefer to see none of them be legal. However it has been stated that some tracks require these brakes due to safety reasons so I've stated that I support this case if truly warranted but back grades would need to be in order for Nationals or other regions. Most areas of CMC are restricted to OEM for purpose of cost savings even when longevity is the only benefit. The S-197 has caused cost in our series escalate more than anything yet. I was hoping to have meaningful and productive discussion here on how we could scale those costs back and keep our series strong and affordable. Good luck with RCR silly season. Boudy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBody383 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Step 3 - However it has been stated that some tracks require these brakes due to safety reasons so I've stated that I support this case if truly warranted but back grades would need to be in order for Nationals or other regions. Not meant to be a rhetorical question; I just don't know - what tracks do you guys consider the big brakes to be a safety necessity vs. cost? What speeds or track combos drive the change? I know my OEMs will turn all 4 tires square at any point in a race at any track we run in Texas. (and often when I don't want them too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Not meant to be a rhetorical question; I just don't know - what tracks do you guys consider the big brakes to be a safety necessity vs. cost? What speeds or track combos drive the change? I know my OEMs will turn all 4 tires square at any point in a race at any track we run in Texas. (and often when I don't want them too) I would say they are a big advantage at : Hallett, ECR... and especially at NOLA at the end of the front straight. I probably have noticed the biggest deficiency against the big brake guys at NOLA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FBody383 Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I probably have noticed the biggest deficiency against the big brake guys at NOLA. Since I haven't made NOLA yet, I'll take your word for it. I just looked at the R3 results for Hallett this year and I know my problem was not hardware this time, all driver. I had a little (a little) fade late in R4 but more tire and talent issues than brakes. Fresh front pads and good ducting for ECR in a couple weeks. Other region tracks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'm running spec iron next year because I see that class starting to take off like I saw SM take off in 2001. So you guys can go back to the way you were and wont have to worry about a new guy spoiling your fun next year since apparently my car has pissed more people off than open their eyes. Glenn, You have a PM. Sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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