RCR - engine choice

[wastntim]

I think Todd and Bryan have both made some great points.

 

Glenn, I know you have had good luck with your engine, but the statements Todd is making are completely true. Everyone running the LT1 in our region has chased multiple engine issues over and over again. Based upon our experiences, we are not the anomaly, it seems like your situation is the exception. The luck you have had with your engine has not been experienced by not one person in the Midwest or great lakes.

 

As Bryan indicated, the race length may have something to do with it. We run races that are typically twice as long. This would easily cause substantial more failures than you might experience in areas that run shorter races.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Guest

[wastntim]

I am making this offer:

 

If the competing racers in GL and Midwest will grant me permission to an LS1 for a season, I will put one in my car. I will then be able to collect data regarding the setup including engine placement measurements as well as traqmate data which can be compared to my data already obtained from my lt1.

[soundguydave1548534741]

 

If your going try and pull random comments made during other threads that are completely off topic, then sure..... your just sayin'..... you don't have the facts.

The facts are:

80k motor from the junk yard ran all of 05 and 06. 06 included 3rd at Nats.

Rebuilt for 07. Ran all of 07 to include Nats.

New main/rod bearings (nothing failed) due to concerns of random 0 oil pressure reading due to a faulty oil cooler for 08. Ran all of 08. Ran Nats in 08 as well.

Ran all of 09 to includes Nats.

Ran half of 10-13. Also have a 10, 8, 6 hour enduros on the same motor that was put in in 08.

I replaced the cap and rotor once in 06 cause I got the opti wet washing the car. Figured while I was cleaning it out, may as well replace the 80k ones. Head gaskets in 10 cause I constantly overheated it in impound cause I didn't run fans on the car. Opti this year fornwhat turned out to be a bad temp sender.

 

From what I can tell, LT1's are plenty durable. Mine has more track time than any LS1 in the NASA Texas region.

 

Well, fair enough. I can only go by what you say, and nothing more. I remembered the discussion on budget and costs, and how you ran very few events. That knowledge, combined with the "because mine doesn't, then nobody else's does either" slant to your post let me to point out a possible inequity. That's all.

 

It's obvious you've had good luck with your LT1, and honestly, I think that's great. However, in the MW/GL regions, we DON'T have that kind of luck. Remember, I'm a Mustang guy, not a GM guy, so no, I don't have the intimate knowledge of exactly what's going on with them, but I can tell the difference between a car on the track and one in the paddock with large portions of the engine removed for repair.

 

I still support any RCR, for any chassis, that allows for easier/cheaper/faster maintenance and adjustment within the allowed parameters of the rules, or provides enhanced durability and long-term cost savings. Our guys are having problems with the LT1s, and if they think the LS1 is the answer, or the "baby LS1," then fine. After all, the goal is having the cars on the track, right?

[Glenn]

A 10 hour enduro is a full season of CMC (4 races per weekend for 6 weekends) done non stop. That trumps your 45 minute race. We also did 45 minutes races a few years back.

 

Myself, Proctor, Francis, Alford, Northup, Dawdy, Warren, Mulder, Robertson, Fernandez, and a few others I am forgetting all run LT1's. Can't say any of them have had constant problems. I just don't see a problem with the motor at all.

[Glenn]

So are the LT1's there or LS1's here not being cared for properly? Perhaps it is a lack of knowlege of the "care and feeding" of the LT1 from your area. Each motor has it's do's and don't's.

 

You may have a point, but from what I know, regular maintenance is performed by all the LT1 drivers. Is there some things outside of fluid changes, belt, plugs, etc. you think is needed for LT1s?

 

Opti needs to be vented. Proper oil level and not the OEM level. A good pan. Oil cooler. A good oil cooler and not some crap $60 B&M Jegs cooler. Simple racecar stuff.

[Sidney]

A 10 hour enduro is a full season of CMC (4 races per weekend for 6 weekends) done non stop. That trumps your 45 minute race..

 

No way is one enduro, even 10 hours, equal to the abuse of heat cycles seen during a full season of racing. Bob Denton took a bunch of data from an enduro we did including measuring brake pad thickness w/ calipers...etc. To sum it up...running a 2, 3, 4 hour enduro did not use any more consumables than a 30-45 minute sprint race with the exception of fuel. Tires, pads, rotors wear from heat cycles...not time in use. We've been there and done that.

 

Carry on,

 

Sidney

[CMC#11]

For every guy that says his 4.6l, LT1, or any other engine is the problem, there are a dozen others that would say they love their engine and haven't had any issues.

 

We're only talking about LT1s, not 4.6 or 5.0 or 350.

 

And that statement is not correct in these parts, i regards to LT1s. The ratio would be the exact opposite.

I can understand the pains you and your fellow racers have had regarding your LT1's. But the rules regarding CMC cover across the nation, not just MW/GL.

[cozog1548534733]

For every guy that says his 4.6l, LT1, or any other engine is the problem, there are a dozen others that would say they love their engine and haven't had any issues.

 

We're only talking about LT1s, not 4.6 or 5.0 or 350.

 

And that statement is not correct in these parts, i regards to LT1s. The ratio would be the exact opposite.

I can understand the pains you and your fellow racers have had regarding your LT1's. But the rules regarding CMC cover across the nation, not just MW/GL.

What's your point? Racers in TX could run a 3rd gen LS combo too. I don't understand your comment.

[suck fumes1548534743]

The point is the world of CMC doesn't revolve around one regions problems.

[Dustin M.]

This just is not a factual statement. My LT1 has run very well for a very long time. Many of them have.

 

Glenn,

Maybe it's a regional thing? Of the 4 LT1 racers in MW/GL that regularly run, 3 have consistently had their weekends cut short by LT1 failures and issues. I bought my car with a reman. Jasper engine with only 1k mi on it. Thought it was a great idea. That engine lasted 6 events before blowing (broken rod). I then bought a professionally built LT1 from Kent Owens. First event... the opti dies, 2 events after that the opti dies and finally 2 events after that another dead opti. Plus it's now missing out on one cylinder. That doesn't include the 2 alternators I've had to buy because they keep burning out.

 

I can see a number of potential issues with this statement. First problem, a reman engine. They're the devil, I will NEVER own a reman engine. 2nd and 3rd problems: what kind of optis and alternators were you running? If it's Autozone junk, there's your problem. I've NEVER had good luck with part store starters, alternators, ignition, it all fails on me in short order on my street cars. No way in Hell I'd ever run them on a race car.

[Dustin M.]

So are the LT1's there or LS1's here not being cared for properly? Perhaps it is a lack of knowlege of the "care and feeding" of the LT1 from your area. Each motor has it's do's and don't's.

 

You may have a point, but from what I know, regular maintenance is performed by all the LT1 drivers. Is there some things outside of fluid changes, belt, plugs, etc. you think is needed for LT1s?

 

Opti needs to be vented. Proper oil level and not the OEM level. A good pan. Oil cooler. A good oil cooler and not some crap $60 B&M Jegs cooler. Simple racecar stuff.

 

Is is a 1 quart overfill?

[suck fumes1548534743]

This just is not a factual statement. My LT1 has run very well for a very long time. Many of them have.

 

Glenn,

Maybe it's a regional thing? Of the 4 LT1 racers in MW/GL that regularly run, 3 have consistently had their weekends cut short by LT1 failures and issues. I bought my car with a reman. Jasper engine with only 1k mi on it. Thought it was a great idea. That engine lasted 6 events before blowing (broken rod). I then bought a professionally built LT1 from Kent Owens. First event... the opti dies, 2 events after that the opti dies and finally 2 events after that another dead opti. Plus it's now missing out on one cylinder. That doesn't include the 2 alternators I've had to buy because they keep burning out.

 

I can see a number of potential issues with this statement. First problem, a reman engine. They're the devil, I will NEVER own a reman engine. 2nd and 3rd problems: what kind of optis and alternators were you running? If it's Autozone junk, there's your problem. I've NEVER had good luck with part store starters, alternators, ignition, it all fails on me in short order on my street cars. No way in Hell I'd ever run them on a race car.

 

 

 

DING DING DING!!! You sir are someone who "gets it"!

[cozog1548534733]

The point is the world of CMC doesn't revolve around one regions problems.

Yeah, I got that. I was hoping that wasn't the case.

 

I'm sorry if I went overboard about this issue in MW/GL. Not trying to push ANY regional "agenda" that's different than national CMC, just trying to participate in an open discussion about the RCR. If the TX region was having a similar issue, I'd be a part of that discussion too, regardless of how it effects my region. That's part of all the directors jobs.

[cozog1548534733]

I can see a number of potential issues with this statement. First problem, a reman engine. They're the devil, I will NEVER own a reman engine. 2nd and 3rd problems: what kind of optis and alternators were you running? If it's Autozone junk, there's your problem. I've NEVER had good luck with part store starters, alternators, ignition, it all fails on me in short order on my street cars. No way in Hell I'd ever run them on a race car.

 

I always try to use Delphi, AC Delco or other major OEM supplier parts whenever possible. That includes opti, coil, alternator etc.

 

And those branded OEM parts fail just as fast.

[cozog1548534733]

I can see a number of potential issues with this statement. First problem, a reman engine. They're the devil, I will NEVER own a reman engine. 2nd and 3rd problems: what kind of optis and alternators were you running? If it's Autozone junk, there's your problem. I've NEVER had good luck with part store starters, alternators, ignition, it all fails on me in short order on my street cars. No way in Hell I'd ever run them on a race car.

 

 

 

DING DING DING!!! You sir are someone who "gets it"!

 

Please don't ASSume I "don't' get it". I may be relatively new to the CMC world, but I'm not an idiot. Instead of being all arrogant, why not offer to help me understand "it"? Helping each other through education is a great tool to build camaraderie in the series. Acting superior to others does nothing but piss people off.

[Glenn]

So are the LT1's there or LS1's here not being cared for properly? Perhaps it is a lack of knowlege of the "care and feeding" of the LT1 from your area. Each motor has it's do's and don't's.

 

You may have a point, but from what I know, regular maintenance is performed by all the LT1 drivers. Is there some things outside of fluid changes, belt, plugs, etc. you think is needed for LT1s?

 

Opti needs to be vented. Proper oil level and not the OEM level. A good pan. Oil cooler. A good oil cooler and not some crap $60 B&M Jegs cooler. Simple racecar stuff.

 

Is is a 1 quart overfill?

 

I use 8 qrts in my LT1. This is w/ the Canton pan and a small Setrab oil cooler.

The OEM fill on an LS1 motor that is tracked needs to be bumped from the stock 6 to a minimum 7. If you add a cooler, add a qrt.

[wastntim]

Myself, Proctor, Francis, Alford, Northup, Dawdy, Warren, Mulder, Robertson, Fernandez, and a few others I am forgetting all run LT1's. Can't say any of them have had constant problems. I just don't see a problem with the motor at all.

 

Glenn, didn't you say you lost an entire season chasing a problem with your car? Considering you being as much as of an expert as you are, don't you consider that to be a problem?

 

Plus, I seem to remember Bob Denton reporting several LT1's breaking down at Hallet.

 

Sounds like these engines are not quite as bullet proof as you make them sound.

[Boudy1548534717]

 

- Old timers think that 260 HP vs 230 HP is very expensive to make with some of the motors in our series while the performance aspect puts addition wear and tear on the rest of the entire car. It's upwards of an additional $2500 on my 302. (The one and only engine option for my car, BTW) Not good for newcomers to the series, not good for reliability of drive trains. Cool for new guys to post dyno sheets though. When 230 HP was the limit, the majority of racers enjoyed a lesser expensive series. So yeah, I believe lower HP levels are in the best interest of CMC.

 

Boudy

 

So junkyard Explorer engines are $2,500? If you're blowing that much to make 260whp, you're doing it wrong. I'm quite familiar with the EFI 5.0s and I can tell you for a fact it doesn't cost that much. If a junkyard 5.3 is good enough, so is a junkyard 5.0. I don't mean to come off like a dick, but sometimes these posts seem biased to defend the OP's position.

 

Well, I don't mean to come off like a dick but running junkyard shit is one of the reasons we're having this discussion. Guys often take short cuts then end up requesting additional engine options because can't fix the one they have that's riddled with old sensors and whatever else plaguing the thing at the time. I don't run junkyard or used equipment and neither should anyone else who wants to run complete weekends.

 

I can tell you that the stock GT 302 makes 220 HP fresh out of the machine shop. Now you will have to add the following to get to current power levels:

 

E303 Cam - $200

Cobra upper intake kit - $500

24lb injector kit - $150

Refurb P-heads - $600

Shorty Headers - $250

Roller Rockers - $300

Pushrods - $80

Throttle body - $150

MAF - $100

 

There's $2,300 that it takes to get to 260 HP with a stock GT engine. I didn't include short block items or anything associated with building it because that's an expense with either.

 

Quite familiar with the EFI 5.0s or not it takes $2,300 + to to make 260 HP/290 TQ and run complete weekends. If you still think that's biased then so be it, we'll have to agree over what I've spent.

 

And for what it's worth, I spent the next 4 events and tons of dyno time with experts troubleshooting an O2 sensor issue that shut my motor down at 4,900 rpm. I wasn't here asking for rules help to fix my problem. Not trying to offend those points from guys asking for this, but I am trying to make the point that the current engine options are viable and all of us are plagued by pesky engine issues from time to time. It sucks but you're not taking these things to church on Sundays, they require all new parts and it's expensive enough without allowing more options and rules creep.

 

Boudy

[wastntim]

Boudy,

I spent over $3,000 on a complete rebuild last year alone. Not to mention that I had already bought a brand new painless harness over the previous wineter. All of this is not including the $1,000 in parts I've put in during this season trying to fix my issues.

 

So everyone who thinks I am running junkyard crap should ask before they make statements that simply are not true or just keep their opinions to themselves.

[Boudy1548534717]

That's fair Robert but the point still remains that we've all been through what you're going through and with other engine options. Likewise, since you don't know exactly what little trinket is causing your problem then you should not be throwing a blanket blame over the LT1 just as you think I should keep my opinion to myself. There are tons of info out there on what it takes to make that engine bullet proof. I would align with and not alienate the guys who have been through it and run solid engines. I simply don't feel that the LS1 is the wholesale answer to your problem as you do. I believe it's got more negative effects to the series than positive effects to a handful of guys who can't or haven't sorted theirs out.

 

Boudy

[wastntim]

Boudy,

 

Other than the alleged and often repeated rules creep, explain to me the detriment to the series of allowing an ls1 in a third gen please.

[Glenn]

Myself, Proctor, Francis, Alford, Northup, Dawdy, Warren, Mulder, Robertson, Fernandez, and a few others I am forgetting all run LT1's. Can't say any of them have had constant problems. I just don't see a problem with the motor at all.

 

Glenn, didn't you say you lost an entire season chasing a problem with your car? Considering you being as much as of an expert as you are, don't you consider that to be a problem?

 

Plus, I seem to remember Bob Denton reporting several LT1's breaking down at Hallet.

 

Sounds like these engines are not quite as bullet proof as you make them sound.

 

Yep a whole season. And as it was pointed out earlier, my seasons since 2010 have been 3 weekends. I worked through it though. I didn't blame anyone but myself for not finding the problems and myself for picking an LT1. Not once did I think the best move was an LS1 motor even though I know a shit ton more about those motors. It is cheaper to keep what I have. I also still ran the car on track w/ massive driveability issues up until I fixed it. Still passed cars and still got passed. Still glad handed after the races and was happy I am allowed to race.

 

I wasn't at Hallett, but I do recall there being some carnage and cooling issues. For the tracks we run, Hallett is an odd one. We normally ran that track earlier in the year w/ cooler temps. Couple years back it was pushed later into the summer. That track has at least 2 times the altitude of all our other tracks. Weak cooling systems will surely show there.

 

I never said LT1's never break. If you want a motor that never fails, stop racing now. No way to prevent failure. But w/ all the issues at Hallet, none of them came back and said they were switching to an LS1. They fixed the car and moved forward.

 

You labled me the expert. I don't claim to be. In fact, I never owned an LT1 until I started racing my CMC car. So to answer your question, no, I don't consider them a problem. They have thier issues just like LS1 cars.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Guest

[Glenn]

Boudy,

I spent over $3,000 on a complete rebuild last year alone. Not to mention that I had already bought a brand new painless harness over the previous wineter. All of this is not including the $1,000 in parts I've put in during this season trying to fix my issues.

 

So everyone who thinks I am running junkyard crap should ask before they make statements that simply are not true or just keep their opinions to themselves.

 

$3K for a re-build? I could have had 2 built for that.

I have $1700 in mine and a crapload of track time.

[cozog1548534733]

I just had a conversation with another director about the difference in race length. In MW/GL, we regularly run 15-20 min warm ups, 15-20 qualifing and 35-45 min races. It's my understanding, that the TX region (other regions too?) run 20 min races. This might be the crux of the issue with LT1s. My LT1 won't be over 270 oil/210 water after practice and qualifying. No problem there.

 

But after that, the temps start to slowly creep up to 300/240, with or w/o fans on. Maybe what we're seeing the plastic opti being able to withstand the lower max temps for a 20 min race without self destructing, but after another 20 min exposed to a 300 deg. engine, it reaches a critical point and begins to degrade. After a half dozen races, it can't take the heat and implodes. The last opti that failed on me looked like someone held a lighter to the rotor... it was that melted.

 

It seems to me that the difference in race length would explain why many TX guys run LT1s without frequent failures vs. the situation in MW/GL with 35-45 min races.

[cozog1548534733]

I wasn't at Hallett, but I do recall there being some carnage and cooling issues. For the tracks we run, Hallett is an odd one. We normally ran that track earlier in the year w/ cooler temps. Couple years back it was pushed later into the summer. That track has at least 2 times the altitude of all our other tracks. Weak cooling systems will surely show there.

 

This kind of goes along with what I was saying about higher temps causing issues...