Jump to content
Al F.

RCR 14; limits on wheels

Recommended Posts

Adam Ginsberg

Just a point of clarification - "custom made wheels" have been allowed, and used, in the past. The 2009 CMC2 champ, Dave Schotz, had custom wheels made for his 3rd Gen. It caught the attention of many of the racers at the 2009 Mid-Ohio Nats. They were tech'd, and found legal.

 

Cost of his custom wheels? $2000. For the set. No one was as "up in arms" about them then, as they are now after Aaron's win at Miller, so I'm perplexed why it's suddenly a huge problem.

 

Readily available is a misnomer - you can order "readily available" wheels from CCW, Jongbloed, etc, in whatever configuration you do desire. Provided your checkbook can handle it.

 

My point? It's nearly impossible to completely put a cap on what a racer is willing to spend on parts. We, as directors, do what we can to try and put a limit on it, but the reality is simple - there will always be a racer willing to spend more money than someone else, and still be within the rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D Algozine
What is to keep me "Average Joe Racer" from selling wheels under my own brand by taking a RPF1 and adding a spacer and then selling them as an RPF1-1??... Then they are "off the shelf".

 

We don't consider an OEM wheel as "custom" even though they had to design, tool, maufacture, market, sell that wheel, but for some reason just because they have a storefront and someone who answers the phone with "Thanks for calling ABC Wheel Co." makes it okay?

 

However, just because a few creative racers in Texas decide to stretch the rules all that gets ignored and or twisted??

 

Getting creative and stretch the rules........... Isn't that the exact opposite of the whole point of the class?

 

What is to keep me "Average Joe Racer" from selling wheels under my own brand by taking a RPF1 and adding a spacer and then selling them as an RPF1-1??.
Common sense tells me, that is a custom wheel. Pretty simple to eliminate silliness. Besides, anyone could take this exact same approach with dozens of rules. What a cluster F#@% that would be.

Why does anyone besides Aaron (who already owns said wheels) want something like this loop hole to remain in the rules? What is the benefit to the class?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
D Algozine
Just a point of clarification - "custom made wheels" have been allowed, and used, in the past. The 2009 CMC2 champ, Dave Schotz, had custom wheels made for his 3rd Gen. It caught the attention of many of the racers at the 2009 Mid-Ohio Nats. They were tech'd, and found legal.

 

Cost of his custom wheels? $2000. For the set. No one was as "up in arms" about them then, as they are now after Aaron's win at Miller, so I'm perplexed why it's suddenly a huge problem.

 

Readily available is a misnomer - you can order "readily available" wheels from CCW, Jongbloed, etc, in whatever configuration you do desire. Provided your checkbook can handle it.

 

My point? It's nearly impossible to completely put a cap on what a racer is willing to spend on parts. We, as directors, do what we can to try and put a limit on it, but the reality is simple - there will always be a racer willing to spend more money than someone else, and still be within the rules.

 

Are you suggesting that no changes should be made?

 

Readily available is a misnomer - you can order "readily available" wheels from CCW, Jongbloed, etc, in whatever configuration you do desire. Provided your checkbook can handle it

This is the definition of custom? Which some of us believe should be removed as an option.

 

How many people even know that Dave Schotz had custom wheels? And regardless, at this time, wouldn't it be a good idea to take a swing at the current rule (and subsequent clarification) by limiting both the cost and the custom optioin of wheels?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
soundguydave1548534741

 

Readily available is a misnomer - you can order "readily available" wheels from CCW, Jongbloed, etc, in whatever configuration you do desire. Provided your checkbook can handle it.

 

But the build-time makes it NOT "readily available." At least to me, "readily available" means I can go to the factory or the dealer and pick up a set. Today. Right now. As in "in stock," not "special order only." I somehow don't think that CCW, Forgeline, et al could answer the phone, take the order for "whatever configuration you do desire" and then ship them the same day on a regular basis.

 

I honestly think we're working at cross-purposes, here. Am I correct in assuming that you DO favor some way of limiting the wheel expense going forward? If so, then how do YOU suggest we word a rule change to eliminate the "deep pockets" effect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37Stang

I believe what needs to be clearly defined is what problem in fact needs to be solved regarding wheels.

 

Is it the cost of wheels?

 

Is it to prevent competitors from using custom wheels?

 

Is it to prevent competitors from modifying "shelf" wheels to meet the established minimum weight?

 

Is it simply the way the rules are written and that the addition of the spacers to Aaron's wheels?

 

I am just not sure I follow exactly what is being attempted to be accomplished regarding the discussion.

 

If it is the cost of wheels I do not believe putting a "cap" on the cost is a viable solution. I suggested a "cap" on the cost in another thread but after thinking about it I realize this will not work. For example, what happens when a manufacturer releases a wheel that is under the cost "cap" then that wheel is discontinued. Those that purchased the wheels when they were available now have an advantage over those that did not purchase the wheels as well as those coming into the series.

 

If it is the attempt to keep "high dollar" custom wheels out of the series that I can understand. While I am in the very early stages of my build and have yet to purchase wheels I would much rather not speed $2,000 for a set of custom wheels. I can also understand that those who have raced in the series do not want to have to purchase more wheels in order to feel they can be competitive. So what is the solution, if this in fact is the problem? A clear definition of what constitutes a "custom wheel". That I do not know. I come from heads up drag racing and the name of the game when racing heads up is to find every single loophole in the rules and exploit them to your advantage. Even if you can not find a loophole with enough cash on hand you can sway manufacturers to list components, wheels in this case, in their catalog that may not be readily available. Irgo, the wheel is no longer "custom" as it is now a "catalog" item...

 

Is the problem modifying "shelf" wheels that do not meet the minimum weights as available from the manufacturer? Maybe... However, if the minimum weight is listed at 18lbs and the choice is to modify a set of $1,000 "shelf" wheels or purchase a set of "custom" wheels that meet the minimum weight for $2,000 I believe the choice should be obvious... Allow the modification of the shelf wheels. To take this one step further and to save the racer money - allow the spacer to count as wheel weight as well. It will save the cost of having the spacers welded to the wheels or whatever other means of attaching the spacer. In addition it will also allow the wheel to hold its resale value.

 

If the problem is with the way the rules are written then simply clearly state in the rules that spacers attached to the wheels will constitute the total "wheel" weight. Or better yet, as stated above, just count spacers in the total "wheel" weight.

 

If the problem is a combination of all of the above the only clear solution I can see is to raise the minimum weight of "legal" wheels. For example, if the minimum weight is raised to 22 lbs there is no longer any need for custom wheels as wheels at this weight are rather plentiful and inexpensive. There is also no further need to modify wheels by welding on spacers as the rule could be made to state that the wheel weight will be measured as delivered from the manufacturer and spacers are not included in the total weight of the wheel. Of course, there may be the competitor that then orders wheels from a manufacturer with the spacers already welded to the wheels. They are then deemed legal as the rule is written because they arrived from the manufacturer already modified. We then have to cross the bridge of what constitutes "modified"... I guess the directors could adopt into the wording the wheel must be "as cast".

 

I am just attempting to understand the problem that is attempting to be solved and offering solutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glenn

The last thing you want to do is make OEM wheels illegal.

Perhaps making 2 weights for wheels is the answer. 1 number for OEM stuff and a 2nd for non-OEM. Or a different number for 9" vs 9.5". Not sure I like it, just thinking out loud.

 

Limiting the wheel to be "as delivered" from the manufacture maybe the only solution. This will stop the 16lb wheels from being made into 18lb wheels. We can also require the wheel to only be made of 1 of the 2 allowed materials, and not both. This rids us of the light aluminum wheel w/ the steel "add on spacer" to bump up the weight and relocate it to the center. This would require "attached spacers" to be made of the same material as the wheel. Thus minimizing its impact.

 

Requiring wheels to only come from "in stock" supplys will not work. Lots of wheel manufactures don't have all available wheels "in stock". Even if they did, I can assure you thier retailers don't. This is not the answer.

 

I still think we are splitting hairs here w/ all this.

18lb wheels w/ a 9.5" max width that are of aluminum or steel construction is really all we need. The maximum exploitation of those limits will not amount to any measurable difference in on track performance.

 

But of all the things we do, I can assure you the most offensive will be requiring folks who are already racing w/ us to have to get rid of the wheels they have and replace them w/ something else. We need to be sure we are solving a problem w/out creating a new one to take its place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MHISSTC
...what problem in fact needs to be solved regarding wheels.

 

Is it the cost of wheels?

 

Is it to prevent competitors from using custom wheels?

 

Is it to prevent competitors from modifying "shelf" wheels to meet the established minimum weight?

 

Is it simply the way the rules are written and that the addition of the spacers to Aaron's wheels?

 

Our version of the RCR seeks to answer your questions in the following order:

 

No. Cost of the wheels doesn't matter.

 

No. Custom made wheels are OK.

 

Yes. Run the wheels "as manufactured" without structural modifications by the end user. (painting/coating wheels is an appearance modification and not a structural modification like welding a wheel spacer to the wheel is)

 

Yes. The rule was poorly written with an interpretation that was poorly advertised. A clarification needs to be made so that this rule can stand on it's own and would render an interpretation unnecessary. One decimal place needs to be added to the wheel weight to get rid of any rounding advantage. ALL OEM wheels need to be legal without weight consideration. Wheel material needs to be specified to eliminate exotic or composite materials such as carbon fiber, titanium, magnesium, etc.

 

We also think that any non-OEM wheel that isn't maxi-sized (ie. 17"x8", 16"x7", etc.) should be allowed to weigh less than the minimum weight specified for a maxi-sized wheel (ie. 17"x9.5") However, according to some, it would be a nearly impossible task and it would add to much complexity to the rules if a table (similar to our HP/TQ/weight tables) was produced that would designate specific wheel weights to specific wheel sizes. We understand this concern, and in the interest of compromise and rules simplification, have not included wording in our RCR this year that would suggest such a table.

 

To reiterate and paraphrase something that was told to us a few years back in no uncertain terms, "Operate in the gray area of the rules, and we will rewrite the rule to make your (fill in the blank) illegal." Although we were a little miffed at the time, I think that was some really solid advice. We accepted it and moved on. I think there are a lot of folks who could benefit from heeding that advice and moving on also. Our RCR is an attempt to minimize the gray area in which folks could operate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ls168camaro

Make it simple. Any oem wheel is legal and any non oem wheel must weigh a minimum of 20 lbs whether it's with a spacer or not.

 

I also like a 3 year rule before a competitor can submit or discuss an rcr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boudy1548534717
I still think we are splitting hairs here w/ all this.

18lb wheels w/ a 9.5" max width that are of aluminum or steel construction is really all we need. The maximum exploitation of those limits will not amount to any measurable difference in on track performance.

 

Glenn I agree, we are splitting hairs on this in regards to performance. However, performance is not what this effort is trying to change. CMC has always been sold as a series where you don't have to compete against a guy's wallet. The wheel rule as written goes against that. I had a good phone conversation last night that shed additional light on the subject for me and this sums it up: If you allow $2,000 wheels to be legal then we should also allow a guy to get a calculated equivalent to those wheels for $800. The problem is not that guys figured a way to get the performance of $2,000 wheels for $800, the problem is that $2,000 wheels are legal to begin with.

 

Boudy

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
soundguydave1548534741

 

I also like a 3 year rule before a competitor can submit or discuss an rcr.

 

I don't like that, at all. Taking your points in reverse order:

 

By restricting discussion to 3yr+ participants, you'll eliminate a very large avenue for the series "newbies" to actually learn and understand where the intention of the series lies. It certainly isn't in the rules, and it's quite apparent that the RDs are not 100% consistent on a national basis.

 

By restricting the ability to submit an RCR until you've been in the series for 3+ years, you will lose fresh ideas. Yes, it might have an impact on series rule stability, but the implication is that only the "wise old men" can have a good idea or valid opinion, and that's just not true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
soundguydave1548534741

Picking up on what Scott wrote:

 

I honestly don't have an issue with a "custom wheel," unless said wheel offers a performance advantage over the "run of the mill" CMC-legal wheel. If you want to use a custom wheel for appearance, or for a specific offset that's unavailable and don't want to have to weld spacers onto your wheel, fine. However when you have a custom offset wheel that doesn't require a spacer to make minimum weight, you DO have a performance advantage over a "legal" wheel that does, and THAT needs to be eliminated. And no, welding the spacer on is not the answer.

 

The real thrust of the RCR in question is to avoid the bulk of CMC having to start from scratch with wheels to hit the minimum weight that has essentially been redefined as including the spacer.

 

Bottom line: Keep the currently legal wheels legal, while eliminating the performance edge gained with a custom or customized wheel.

 

Glenn: Regarding the "readily available" clause and discussion: I think you understand the intent, eliminating the unobtanium and custom one-offs, but I agree that the wording to do so cleanly without grey areas for exploitation may need work. I don't want a rule book that looks like a Manhattan phone directory either, but we have a loophole that needs closing, and it may take more than one or two simple sentences to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glenn
I still think we are splitting hairs here w/ all this.

18lb wheels w/ a 9.5" max width that are of aluminum or steel construction is really all we need. The maximum exploitation of those limits will not amount to any measurable difference in on track performance.

 

Glenn I agree, we are splitting hairs on this in regards to performance. However, performance is not what this effort is trying to change. CMC has always been sold as a series where you don't have to compete against a guy's wallet. The wheel rule as written goes against that. I had a good phone conversation last night that shed additional light on the subject for me and this sums it up: If you allow $2,000 wheels to be legal then we should also allow a guy to get a calculated equivalent to those wheels for $800. The problem is not that guys figured a way to get the performance of $2,000 wheels for $800, the problem is that $2,000 wheels are legal to begin with.

 

Boudy

Performance, or a perceeved advantage, is what is driving the change.

 

My $200 wheels will beat your $2000 wheels all day long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boudy1548534717
Performance, or a percieved advantage, is what is driving the change.

 

My $200 wheels will beat your $2000 wheels all day long.

 

Irrelevant to the rules and the way racers respond to the rules. You keep discounting the fundamental element of racing, 'Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday.' The fact that you think a guy does not need them does not prevent guys from buying them. As Adam previously mentioned there is no limit to what a guy will spend to obtain a perceived advantage. For this reason rules should attempt as best possible to prevent as much of it as reasonably possible.

 

I don't care that you and I can't validate the calculated advantage of center-mass loaded wheels vs OEM wheels inside the length of a day. That doesn't change the fact allowing guys to purchase the perceived advantage runs cost up across the board, no matter where you finish in the line-up.

 

Boudy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glenn

Robert - We talked earlier about this, but I said I would also make a post in responce.

 

There is no way CMC can legislate away spending money in all areas. It is easy to do in areas where the allowance is new (brakes) since the option is to keep what you have or buy something new under the newly established rules limit. W/ wheels, there was no such rule when they bought wheels and it would be painfull to the racers to do so now. So no going backwards here. We all agree that we don't like the current stateof the wheel rule, and steps are being taken to address everyones concerns.

 

Let me explain why limiting wheels cost is not the answer.

Lets say I use engine builder X. He charges $1700 for a rebuilt. Joe Blow uses builder Y. He spends $4000 for a rebuild. Everything else is the same w/ regards to power curves and parts being legal. Yet Joe Blow is winning more races than me (or anyone). Does this mean we need to cap the allowed spending on engine rebuilds? I don't see why. If you feel differen't (anyone, not just Robert), explain.....

 

So just because a guy spends $4000 on a set of wheels doesn't mean they are an advantage. He may want a very strong wheel. He may want a specific design or look. As long as they are of legal weight, material and dimensions, I don't see the problem w/ anyone running them.

Obviously if there is a technical reason they are faster (other than the owner drives harder ), then a change to the rules could be in order.

We (the group here on the forums) identified a problem that needs to be addressed. I can assure you some type of action will be taken on my part. Where this ends up, I'm unclear.

 

I will leave the series if I have to replace my wheels. I can also be sure I will not leave alone. There is an answer out there, but it is not a SPEC wheel nor is it a price limit. For this area, technical limits are what is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cozog1548534733
Perhaps making 2 weights for wheels is the answer.

 

I was thinking the same thing reading this thread. OEM is 18.0 lbs and non-OEM is 20.0 (or 21, 22, 23, etc).

Just spitballin, but that might solve the issue of custom wheels having an advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boudy1548534717
Let me explain why limiting wheels cost is not the answer. Lets say I use engine builder X. He charges $1700 for a rebuilt. Joe Blow uses builder Y. He spends $4000 for a rebuild. Everything else is the same w/ regards to power curves and parts being legal. Yet Joe Blow is winning more races than me (or anyone). Does this mean we need to cap the allowed spending on engine rebuilds? I don't see why. If you feel different (anyone, not just Robert), explain.....

 

We have a dyno rule that serves it's purpose very well so if a guy is spanking the field with engines being equal then it's obvious. The dyno sets a hard limit that can not be crossed. The dollars involved to massage numbers under this limit would be pretty extreme but would also show on the dyno sheet. So even if he built engines during the day, his graph would obviously show if he were cheating under the limits which would not be difficult to manage. We discussed this years ago so you know its not a good analogy to begin with.

 

So just because a guy spends $4000 on a set of wheels doesn't mean they are an advantage. He may want a very strong wheel. He may want a specific design or look. As long as they are of legal weight, material and dimensions, I don't see the problem w/ anyone running them.

Obviously if there is a technical reason they are faster (other than the owner drives harder ), then a change to the rules could be in order.

 

You can't produce a single guy who is willing to shell out $4,000 for strength, design, or look that didn't provide an advantage on track. It just isn't reality. Good talking point but not reality. I'd fork a $100 your way if you could, but you can't and you know I'd pony up. What is reality is that a guy will gladly spend the doe for a perceived advantage and claim it's for safety reasons. Allowing unlimited wheels will cause this issue to surface again and again. Who enjoys these BS discussions every year, not me. I'm sure some action will be taken but it sounds as though the rules will be rubbed just enough to kick the can down the track a bit. And deal with it again next time because you sound like you want to leave the option of purchasing a high end set of center-loaded 18 lb wheels legal while making a cheaper alternative to achieve the same calculated results illegal.

 

I will leave the series if I have to replace my wheels. I can also be sure I will not leave alone. There is an answer out there, but it is not a SPEC wheel nor is it a price limit. For this area, technical limits are what is needed.

 

I call "POSTURING!" You know full well that your wheels and 95% of the rest would not be affected by what we discussed. A list of approved wheels for each platform would include all OEM and most reasonably priced wheels run by the majority of our current competitors. I would guess that 95% of us or better run on wheels that would fall onto the list. You challenge yourself to find even 5 guys in the country who currently runs wheels that would fall outside of the parameters that the majority of us run and you'll come up empty handed. So I'm saying that the reality of a list of approved wheels will run nobody off because most comply already. Your position claims that wheel limits will run guys off while unlimited wheels won't, who agrees?

 

Why would I even bother if this only applies to 5% of the class? Well because, competitive advantages spread like wildfires. 5% turns into 8% next year and finally 5 years down the road, $4,000 wheels become the norm and many are searching for a less expensive place to race.

 

The easiest way I see to police this whole issue and keep it under financial control for competitors is to produce a list of commonly used wheels for each platform by the majority of the competitors. If a guy has a hard-on for a certain wheel next year then he can request that wheel be evaluated for approval. Certainly a far cry better than the shit pool currently being waded through. And most certainly a far better way to keep guys out of each others throats over rules creep every year.

 

Now, so that some are not confused: Yes, I started this discussion with a different opinion. However after reading pages of input from others and numerous phone conversations with those I disagree with, I have formed a different opinion that is someplace in the middle.

 

Boudy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JJKJ
Perhaps making 2 weights for wheels is the answer.

 

I was thinking the same thing reading this thread. OEM is 18.0 lbs and non-OEM is 20.0 (or 21, 22, 23, etc).

Just spitballin, but that might solve the issue of custom wheels having an advantage.

 

Unfortunately not everyone will be happy with whatever rule is implemented. However, this rule would make it more difficult for those of us building future CMC cars. From the research I've done in preparing my Camaro, the most ideal OEM wheel for competition on a 4th gen is a C5 Z06 wheel. Unfortunately, those wheels (OEM) are a finite resource and are already becoming a challenge to find. As an alternative, I went looking for a wheel that fit the parameters listed by the current CMC rules. With not much effort, I found a readily available wheel manufacturer that has several styles available in a 17x9" size that weigh between 18 and 19 lbs. They are a mass-produced very affordable wheel with the correct bolt pattern and workable offset. Best of all, if I ding one I don't have to go scouring craigslist, ebay or other sources to track down a usable replacement. Ideally they would be 9.5" wide, but life isn't perfect.

 

I believe if we travel down the path of making a certain OEM wheel the wheel "to have" then I think we are actually going against the concept of CMC. There are many good alternative non-oem wheels that would be excluded by giving them a weight penalty.

 

As with the dyno rule mentioned, an established weight levels the playing field. Doesn't matter if you spend $2000 or $800 for a set of wheels, if they weigh the same, it's a level playing field. The only advantage I can think of in using high-dollar custom wheels is that you can get to maximum track width and minimum weight without using spacers, so you would have a slight weight advantage over someone buying a standard offset wheel that weighs the minimum but needs a spacer to adjust track width. However, on the downside of a custom wheel in this scenario, you also loose the ability to tune track width on the fly by a simple swap of the spacer thickness. Personally, I'd rather have a set of the $800 wheels and a few sets of spacers that I can tune with at the track even though I might be a lb heavier on each corner.

 

From an outsider's view, the easiest way to resolve this issue is with just adding a bit of further guidance to the already-existing rule. Adding terminology that states the wheel weight used would be "as manufactured". Any spacers, paint, etc added to the wheel after-the-fact would be above the 18lb (or 16lb) rule.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glenn

Robert - my point was about perceived advantage. Price alone does not provide an advantage. If someone perceives an advantage where one does not exist based on physics, there is no amount of rules writting that will stop it.

Show me an 18lb CCW that will provide an advantage.

Show me how $4k wheels are an advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wastntim
Perhaps making 2 weights for wheels is the answer.

 

I was thinking the same thing reading this thread. OEM is 18.0 lbs and non-OEM is 20.0 (or 21, 22, 23, etc).

Just spitballin, but that might solve the issue of custom wheels having an advantage.

 

Not wild about this idea as it makes my one piece 20.4 # pound wheel barely legal. These wheels are the only thing that make it possible for my third gen to run 17's without running massive and heavy spacers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CMC#11
Perhaps making 2 weights for wheels is the answer.

 

I was thinking the same thing reading this thread. OEM is 18.0 lbs and non-OEM is 20.0 (or 21, 22, 23, etc).

Just spitballin, but that might solve the issue of custom wheels having an advantage.

 

Not wild about this idea as it makes my one piece 20.4 # pound wheel barely legal. These wheels are the only thing that make it possible for my third gen to run 17's without running massive and heavy spacers.

Exactly, I don't see this idea even being an option.

I have a set of 19.5 lb wheels I got from Discount Tire for $145 each. I don't see any reasoning ever where these should not be legal.

 

Also, I'm sure the directors have done their research but Ford never made a 17x9 (or 9.5") wheel that is anywhere close to the weight the GM 10-spoke or Vette wheels are. Fords just do not have the luxury of 18-20 lb factory wheels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nape1548534725
Exactly, I don't see this idea even being an option.

I have a set of 19.5 lb wheels I got from Discount Tire for $145 each. I don't see any reasoning ever where these should not be legal.

 

Also, I'm sure the directors have done their research but Ford never made a 17x9 (or 9.5") wheel that is anywhere close to the weight the GM 10-spoke or Vette wheels are. Fords just do not have the luxury of 18-20 lb factory wheels.

 

As a data point, used Z06 Fronts (~19lbs) are firmly into the $125-150 each range lately. The $100/each days of 4-5 years ago are pretty much gone. Those are the lightest OE wheel to my knowledge.

 

21-22lb wheels can still be had cheap, but the latest set of 10-spoke SS wheels I picked up has a crack through the bead on one. So much for a "cheap" set of wheels...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
suck fumes1548534743

In a group buy the enkeis are $205 ea and they are new. Just sayin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Smike
Robert - my point was about perceived advantage. Price alone does not provide an advantage. If someone perceives an advantage where one does not exist based on physics, there is no amount of rules writting that will stop it.

Show me an 18lb CCW that will provide an advantage.

Show me how $4k wheels are an advantage.

 

I believe an aviation engineer has already given you the science and math about the effects rotational mass. Sorry you fail to understand that unsprung rotating mass does matter.

 

And with more name calling, attitudes, arguing, from many here - for those who read and do not post; e.g. future CMC potentials, current drivers, etc. You are giving a very poor impression of this series.

 

What keeps people racing in this series? This is a meta-picture question; not a Texas centric point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Boudy1548534717

I would like to hear from others on thoughts about a list of approved wheels.

Obviously all OEM and the host of other 18 lb wheels used in CMC today would be included. The goal is to rule out custom made and high end center-mass loaded wheels. Also keeps cost under control for competitors. It then becomes easy to police without a price marker and this argument gets all but avoided in the future. The only annual discussion then should be if a guy wants a new wheel evaluated for approval.

 

OK, and let's assume for the sake of fairness that there is a few guys around the country who currently have high-end wheels that don't make the list. He gets 2 years to phase them out. Simple, just like any other racing expense.

 

Boudy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MHISSTC

Here are some of my thoughts on a list of approved wheels.

 

A list of approved wheels for each platform would include all OEM and most reasonably priced wheels run by the majority of our current competitors. I would guess that 95% of us or better run on wheels that would fall onto the list. You challenge yourself to find even 5 guys in the country who currently runs wheels that would fall outside of the parameters that the majority of us run and you'll come up empty handed. So I'm saying that the reality of a list of approved wheels will run nobody off because most comply already.

 

The easiest way I see to police this whole issue and keep it under financial control for competitors is to produce a list of commonly used wheels for each platform by the majority of the competitors. If a guy has a hard-on for a certain wheel next year then he can request that wheel be evaluated for approval.

 

I can totally agree with this in theory and think it's a good idea, but I'm having a more difficult time thinking about how to manage it in practice. I think we could do this if CMC was a true spec class and we could spec something like 5 very similar wheels of the same size for each manufacturer where the total weights and distribution of mass was similar enough that the only real difference was in appearance.

 

Yes, the vast majority of folks are running the same, or very similar wheels.

Yes, since there really are not a huge quantity of available wheels out there that are right for CMC, once a person finds a good one, all of a sudden there seems to be dozens of them. That's also why when the "odd" wheel shows up, folks start to take a closer look and ask questions. We all want a better (cheaper and lighter and stronger) wheel than the one we are currently running with compromise.

 

Benefits:

A specific list to police wheels with.

A list of wheels newcomers can use so that they each don't have to do the research I know we have all done as individuals to find the right wheel for ourselves.

We aren't dismounting tires, weights, valve stems to police wheel weight.

 

Drawbacks:

A list has to be created. I can already hear the grumbling about how much work that is going to be.

A list has to be placed into the rules. I can already hear the grumbling about how that makes the rules longer and more complex.

The list would have to include not only wheel manufacturers and wheel models, but also specific wheel sizes...potentially creating a much larger list than initially envisioned.

A list has to be updated regularly to add wheels as manufacturers change their lineup. Do we want to come up with a maximum number of wheels on the list not to exceed 100 or so? I can see this list getting completely unmanageable over time as more and more wheels are added because, realistically, you can't take a wheel off once it's been added since somebody somewhere will have a set they claim they are still using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...