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Al F.

RCR 14; limits on wheels

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D Algozine
Look I'm not trying to belittle anyone. I know it comes across that way behind a keyboard but I'm not trying to be an asshole. The only reason why I got pissy was because the custom wheel rule has been in the book for several years yet no one has had an issue with it until now. Is it because very few if any thought that anyone would buy them or use them? That why no one said anything about it, because it wasn't being used by anyone? I guess my issue is if I'm using a relatively cheap solution to what a "custom" wheel is, why the opposition? I completely understand that people could be upset due to the fact that it wasn't directly written in the rules even though it was stated to be legal in a memo online, but still, this is racing regardless of whether this is a budget friendly class (which I highly disagree with) or not and if I have permission I'm doing it. If I had shown up with a set of Fikse Profil 2's which I was about to do until someone told me a cheaper option, would anyone have had an issue with it?? All I can say is, it's not very appealing to anyone to run with CMC if a rule is changed or requested to be changed if a competitor shows up with something no one else has but yet is legal. Maybe I just have a different mind set than some of you because I come from a very competitive series with a LOT different way of thinking. Everyone I have known and became good friends with in the past shows up at the track to win which is also the way I am. Now I agree with y'all in the sense that I don't want to spend a crap load of money on wheels hence the Enkei idea. Honestly the only reason why I invested in those was because my car with me in it was 100pds over weight with little to no areas to shed that other than on my belly. But that wasn't as easy as I thought haha, which is why I bought those wheels.

 

See..... civil exchange of thoughts, ideas and opinions.

However, I need my head examined, because I need to walk away and its not happening

 

Your asking why now? You say the custom wheel rule has always been there. Not exactly.

Very few knew about the wheel spacer deal, as it wasn't in the rules. And many/most/nearly all/some believe it doesn't belong.

 

The current rule doesn't say custom wheels are an option. it says:

 

7.31 Wheels/Tires

7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.

7.31.2 16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.

7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.

7.31.4 Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset.

 

 

"Wheels may be of any construction or material"

This statement is just too wide open for CMC. Apparently, we (nearly all) stuck to the CMC mantra, and followed along with the program and bought inexpensive wheels. I don't think very many gave it serious thought to spend big dollars on a custom wheels, and your the first to take advantage of the rule change.

 

Like many of the other rules, this is brief, vague and not very descriptive. however, as I and many before me have been told repeatedly," don't look for grey areas, this is not that type of class"

 

So when I've asked other questions about vague, limited detailed rules, I personally have been told to stay away and leave it alone. "Pay attention to the intent". Its been written on this forum hundreds of times.

Also been told and have heard, that no one wants a lengthy rule book, which make absolutely no sense to me. We can all read, and whats wrong with some descriptive explanations and details. Who cares if the book is twice as long as it is. But I digress.

 

So, your question about why now ? because someone got approval (Aaron) and ran with it. There are dozens of other areas that could be viewed in the same manner, but again, we are not supposed to mess with the intent.

 

So, then I ask the same question you are asking. Why now? Why is there a debate about reeling this in? Why not clarify and get the rule modified now, before it gets crazy, and 10 more guys look at it and decided to get creative. Not supposed to be the point of CMC.

With your experience and back ground, you know as well as anyone else that there are still areas within the rules that are easily open to exploit, perhaps they already are being exploited, but who would know, and who is checking? There are many parts that can be altered or lighted and never checked or noticed.

Really, its more like an honor system, then anything else. Personally, my feeling is, who wants to beat there friends by cheating? Not saying this wheel mod is cheating, and not saying anything was inappropriate, just saying I (and many others) don't believe this type of modifications fits within the frame work of the rest of the rules.

Write up a rule modification anyway you want, but 99% of us are going to use inexpensive, widely available, 19-22 lb wheels with 1-2 lb spacers. If the custom option remains, it may alienate some. Maybe nothing happens, maybe some guys get pissed, maybe they do nothing, or worst case scenario, manybe they start thinking they need the "X" part or mod to keep pace with the front runners, or just want to take full advantage of the rules. Again, not good. Huge waste for everyone else to have to even think about spending that much because they want to be built to the limit. Perception is as important as anything else.

 

Im throwing my soap box away.....yah

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Glenn

I got 2 calls today - 1 from Ohio and another from Chicago. If it was someone from here, please leave a VM so I know to call you back. Otherwise I assume the call was not intended for me.

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CTW Motorsports
Last time, then I need to just walk away

 

NO ONE ELSE IN CMC HAS A PERFECT 18LB WHEEL.

Off the shelf , reasonably priced, readily available , non custom wheels with correct offset (no spacers), and weigh 18lbs, aren't available.

We all have 19-22 lbs wheels that need 1-2lb spacers. That is 2-6 lbs difference per wheel, over the once theoretical 18lb, and yes that does matter.

A loop hole allowed a perfect wheel, which has ideal center mass to become legal.

NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT, OR WANTS TO GO OUT AND GET THAT.

 

No one on this forum has used any of this BS as an excuse for not winning ? Where did that statement come from?

 

 

 

PS. I've raced this season and done pretty well, especially for the first time out in a new car. Do I get an official badge that allows me to have an opinion that matters?

 

For some cars, an 18lb wheel is near impossible to make at a low enough price to be considered.

 

As some of you know, I make (and sell) wheels for the 3rd gen cars and have some opinions of what makes sense and what doesn't.

 

1) 18lbs is a reasonable cutoff, although our legal 3rd gen wheels come in at 20.3lbs.

 

2) You can't dictate weight distribution in a wheel with the rules. If you try, it will just turn into a total nightmare and no one will ever be happy.

 

3) A 4th gen version of our wheels would come in at around 18lbs and offer more brake clearance than any OEM 17" wheel, problem is the interest levels - so we haven't done anything yet. So it can be done for around $1,100 a set.

 

4) One thing I have noticed is the racer's infatuation with rotating and unsprung weight reduction. Not that reducing weight is bad, but too much can be spent on items that really don't do much and others are overlooked due to available funds.

 

5) I'm new to the CMC scene - I live through my racers (sponsored and otherwise) and would hate for things to become bogged down due to trying to bend the rules.

 

6) I will stop talking now...

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Adam Ginsberg
This statement is just too wide open for CMC. Apparently, we (nearly all) stuck to the CMC mantra, and followed along with the program and bought inexpensive wheels. I don't think very many gave it serious thought to spend big dollars on a custom wheels, and your the first to take advantage of the rule change.

 

Sorry, Dave, but your statement is incorrect in several ways.

 

As previously mentioned, the wheels Aaron has are NOT custom - they are available from various outlets. Enkei RPF1. All he did was add the spacer, which was/is legal.

 

Also as previously mentioned, even if Aaron's WERE custom, he would not have been the first to do it. Dave Schotz had custom wheels for his 3rd Gen. It drew allot of attention at the Mid-Ohio Nats, they were weighed, determined legal. It didn't gather allot of attention here, on the CMC forums.

 

It's NOT been a recent "rule change". It's been available in the rules for several years. Many may not have realized it, but it's been there.

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MHISSTC
As previously mentioned, the wheels Aaron has are NOT custom - they are available from various outlets. Enkei RPF1. All he did was add the spacer, which was/is legal.

 

I disagree with this on two points. These are two of the exact points were trying to clarify and eliminate this year with a RCR regarding wheels. I agree that spacers by themselves ARE legal.

 

1. The wheels ARE custom because they have been modified by welding a spacer to them. I can not call up an Enkei retailer and order that wheel with a spacer already permanently attached to it. It has been mentioned on a countless number of pages in this thread and the other longer wheel thread, and I believe the consensus that has developed is that they are custom wheels because they are no longer in the "as delivered from the manufacturer" configuration. Without that modification to make it a custom wheel, it is in fact an illegal wheel because it is too light. Even "custom wheels" are now being questioned because the CMC rule doesn't explicitly allow them, even though it has been inferred by the vague language for quite some time.

 

2. Adding the spacer is NOT legal. Nowhere in the CMC rules does it say this is an allowed modification. The only place it is written that a spacer permanently attached to the wheel is a legal modification is in an interpretation of the rules found in the explanation of the rejected RCR we submitted last year. This interpretation was extremely poorly advertised and seems to have (please correct me if I'm wrong) originated in and prevailed primarily in the Texas Region.

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roadracerwhite
As previously mentioned, the wheels Aaron has are NOT custom - they are available from various outlets. Enkei RPF1. All he did was add the spacer, which was/is legal.

 

I disagree with this on two points. These are two of the exact points were trying to clarify and eliminate this year with a RCR regarding wheels. I agree that spacers by themselves ARE legal.

 

1. The wheels ARE custom because they have been modified by welding a spacer to them. I can not call up an Enkei retailer and order that wheel with a spacer already permanently attached to it. It has been mentioned on a countless number of pages in this thread and the other longer wheel thread, and I believe the consensus that has developed is that they are custom wheels because they are no longer in the "as delivered from the manufacturer" configuration. Without that modification to make it a custom wheel, it is in fact an illegal wheel because it is too light. Even "custom wheels" are now being questioned because the CMC rule doesn't explicitly allow them, even though it has been inferred by the vague language for quite some time.

 

2. Adding the spacer is NOT legal. Nowhere in the CMC rules does it say this is an allowed modification. The only place it is written that a spacer permanently attached to the wheel is a legal modification is in an interpretation of the rules found in the explanation of the rejected RCR we submitted last year. This interpretation was extremely poorly advertised and seems to have (please correct me if I'm wrong) originated in and prevailed primarily in the Texas Region.

 

My thoughts exactly.

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Dustin M.

With that said, he could have (and was willing to) spent more money on custom wheels. Instead, he modified a cheaper wheel. Is this not somewhat in the spirit of CMC? It sounds like his intent was not so much to pursue a wheel with the mass centrally concentrated as it was just to lighten up the car a bit.

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soundguydave1548534741

Whether the intent was to push the rules envelope or not, he still succeeded in doing so. Not having seen his car in person, I have no idea where he could pull weight from, but I'm fairly certain that it is there to be had, and not just in the wheels. We got ours (95 Cobra) down to 2999 with no fuel or driver, so I know that it can be done.

 

With all that said, though, the fact remains that he could have used an even cheaper wheel, without attached spacer, and been perfectly legal. THAT is in the spirit of CMC.

 

The bottom line is that the Enkei was an illegal wheel unless modified, and that's the real crux of the issue.

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suck fumes1548534743

For the record my wheels are the 18mm offset (widest available) and only use a 5mm spacer that barely weighs a pound and a half. That's hardly anything. Regardless of whether its in the spirit or not, It's still racing and if its legal per the national director then I'm doing it. And an sn95 chassis is lighter than an 99-04. We've done everything to relieve any and all weight and the wheels were the last little bit.

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BADVENM

Unfortunately that information (wheels) wasnt shared with the rest of us nor outlined in the rules as being allowed (if it doesnt say you can then you cant).

 

When did the National director tell you it was legal?

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suck fumes1548534743

I asked a question about wheels in general to a local director then he mentioned the spacer thing to me cause some people in texas in AI had done it in the past. He then asked the national director if it was ok in CMC right before nats.

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ShadowBolt

Just for the record those cheater wheels did not win this last weekend in Texas. Bryan Curtis (Colorado) won. I know Aaron had a faster qual time like by .01 but there were three guys (Michael, James, and Bryan) that ran within a tenth to a tenth and a half. Those wheels are not unbeatable. Much adieu about nothing. Flame suit on.

 

JJ

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D Algozine

Didn't want to muddy up the Director cut thread, and I I'm not looking for a fight, just some logical explanations.

If the whole point of having a minimum wheel weight rule is to have a minimum wheel weight (pretty logical), then why make a "clarification" that essentially nullifies the rule by adding another part to make weight?

There are GM racers right now looking to buy moderately expensive, light weight wheels to add spacers, to take advantage of this, and I'm sure there are several Mustang guys looking to get an Enkei wheel group purchase. The bar was just raised and its going to cost more money.

Since Al made the call, I think it's your responsibly to provide some more details. I'm trying not to be an ass, but I don't see the logic or the benefit to the class.

Isn't it the CMC mantra, that no parts added, or rules modified unless they lower cost, improve parity, improve reliability, or improve safety? Don't see where adding a weight to a wheel does any of the above.

Based on the explanation given in the Al's comments, you say there was no reasonable way to limit. Couldn't the rule have been modified to say "no custom wheels"? That eliminates the very expensive CCW, Fiske,Kodiak, etc... and eliminates the spacer addition.

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MHISSTC
If the whole point of having a minimum wheel weight rule is to have a minimum wheel weight (pretty logical), then why make a "clarification" that essentially nullifies the rule by adding another part to make weight?

 

I'm right there with you. This topic obviously struck a very raw nerve with a lot of folks. After pages and pages and pages of discussion as to why many of us didn't think this was a good idea with a multitude of different opinions and options offered, it seems like every single bit of it was ignored and the original online clarification that wasn't publicized or included in the rules previously, was merely inserted in the rules this year. It's like all the wheel related posts on this forum didn't exist and all of us wasted our time making an effort to voice our opinions and concers. The forum discussion suggestions and RCR were even ignored to the point of not adding one decimal point to the wheel weight, which now technically also allows wheels to be nearly one half pound lighter than the published minimum weight.

 

There are GM racers right now looking to buy moderately expensive, light weight wheels to add spacers, to take advantage of this, and I'm sure there are several Mustang guys looking to get an Enkei wheel group purchase. The bar was just raised and its going to cost more money.

 

...I don't see the logic or the benefit to the class.

 

Isn't it the CMC mantra, that no parts added, or rules modified unless they lower cost, improve parity, improve reliability, or improve safety? Don't see where adding a weight to a wheel does any of the above.

 

This is a very unfortunate side effect, but a very foreseeable outcome to this rule change. In preventing the minority from starting over with regard to wheels, it's inadvertently increased the potential expenses for everyone across the board.

 

My concern, since we are now clearly endorsing modified wheels, is that someone is going to modify their wheels in a way that will compromise the structural integrity of the wheels, which will ultimately lead to a safety hazard.

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BADVENM

Somewhere I read (in the last 24 hours or less) that Al mentioned he accidentally left the .0 off the 18 pound wheel weight and a correction would be coming to include the .0

 

EDIT: found it

 

As for the wheel weight value...that .0 was on the "to do" list but I overlooked it. It'll be in the first revision.

 

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4513&start=30

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