Glenn Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 If any of you Ford guys are having issues w/ the rear upper control arms failing in any way, please let me know here. Tell me what rear set-up your using. IE - PM3L, 4 link, with or without a PHB. Has the chassis mounts failed? Collecting data for how common this issue is. Please don't debate the should or should not's of running X set-up, not what this thread is about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blk96gt Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Rear end setup: 4-link w/MM panhard bar, MM HD non-adjustable lower control arms, stock uppers with stock bushings. All mounts are still good. I recently replaced the passenger side upper on mine after 8 weekends or so. The bushing had pushed out from the sleeve and the sleeve was grinding against the arm, and had damn near worn all the way through the arm. The driver's side upper was still good. I've now got two 20 minute sessions on the car since replacing the arms, and halfway through the second session I started hearing the grinding noise coming from the rear again. The bushing hasn't pulled all the way out yet, but it will eventually. I actually think that there may be another underlying issue causing this (rear end not centered properly, bushing not pressed in far enough?), but that's another topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I run the MM lowers stock uppers with sphericals in the rear end side. No panhard par. I had a new set of uppers installed prior to Hallett and after Hallett, and ECR the right upper was torn up. Installed a used arm that looked good prior to this season and after two events the right side upper is gone. This time the rubber is torn up and the whole round piece fell out when I removed the arm. Aaron ran this same set-up last year and his dad is running it this year. So far they are not tearing up bushings. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I actually left the factory bushings in my uppers so they have about 100k miles on them and still hold up great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Maximum is screwing us sideways. I can buy a really good aftermarket non adjustable stock length arm for $150.00 with free shipping. I just paid $239.00 for the arms and they screw you for $21.95 more for ground shipping. Over $260.00 for a set of these pills of shit? This means since just prior to Hallett last year I have spent $790.00 on upper control arms. JJ Edited March 21, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Guys - there has been emails going back and forth among your regional directors since this post was started. I have requested CMC allow non-OEM rear upper arms for Fords. Stock length required and must use OEM mounting points. If you agree or disagree w/ this proposed change, contact your Regional Director ASAP and let them know how you feel. I have called for an Official vote on this issue just a few minutes ago. I have a regional racer who is running what I want to allow and have seen no change in his performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Maximum is screwing us sideways. I can buy a really good aftermarket non adjustable stock length arm for $150.00 with free shipping. I just paid $239.00 for the arms and they screw you for $21.95 more for ground shipping. Over $260.00 for a set of these pills of shit? This means since just prior to Hallett last year I have spent $790.00 on upper control arms. JJ When you consider that Ford Racing no longer sells the uppers, and buying a pair from a Ford dealer would cost ~$500, it doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. Agreed about the shipping though, it's why I didn't buy from them (not to mention other vendors sell MM parts for less than they do!) I support this change purely from a cost perspective, but I'm planning on running the stock uppers in my car until they blow out (if they ever do) because I keep reading about urethane bushings causing axle bind. As far as I can tell, almost all of the aftermarket units have urethane bushings. Just curious, why not allow adjustables? Don't know a thing about F-bodies, but on Mustangs, apparently adjustable uppers allow you to correct pinion angle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that's the only benefit of them as far as I can tell, and some even come with spherical bushings which I doubt would ever fail. I don't think CMC cars are low enough to require a pinion angle correction but I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADVENM Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I have heard what I now understand to be binding/grinding/very unpleasant sounding in our Fox Mustang for the past 2 years. We (MHISSTC) and I didn't know what it was but we knew where it was coming from (right rear portion). It would only occur in right hand turns and only at a few tracks. We will hopefully drop the rear axle in the next week or so and inspect the control arms and bushings for any signs of odd wear or destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBolt Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 We race CCW most of the time and I have never torn up a left upper, only the right side. Kevin Jander in our region runs the stock rubber in both ends of the upper arm and has torn up two bushings in the diff in just a few events. He runs a panhard bar. I run sphericals in the diff and no panhard bar and I only tear up the upper right bushing. The sound both Kevin and I hear sounds like an old horn on a model A or like a hurt duck. You can hear it in some of our videos. JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blk96gt Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Here's a few pics of the passenger side control arm and axle bushing (have both the worn bushing and a new bushing in the picture for reference). This was after 8 weekends or so. I only hear the noise on hard left turns. -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 My car used to make that horn noise but it was the stoptechs rubbing the inside of the wheels under load. Once the caliper grinded itself down it quit haha. No noise now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 We don't want them adjusted as that can result in a forward bit gain or a rear decell grip gain. Drag racers change pinion angle to help build forward bite. If we allow the Ford's to do that, then we need to allow the GM's to have adjustable torque arms for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrC Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Wouldn’t installing a torque arms on the Fords eliminate all the issues and the need to make the costly repairs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 DING DING DING!!!!! Even though the upfront cost is high for the torque arm and Panhard bar those two items will make the mustangs have a LOT LESS problems. The fact that some people call upper control arms "expendables" or something that is a maintenance item is rediculous. Brakes, tires, and hubs are what I consider a normal expendable NOT freakin control arms!! Sure we can allow aftermarket or adjustable arms but they are still a risk and no one knows if that will even fix the problem, at least with a TA its a guaranteed fix cause it eliminates the arms all together. Remember you're only bandaiding a turd without a TA. My car may not have issues now but I'm sure eventually it will start to wear out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Wouldn’t installing a torque arms on the Fords eliminate all the issues and the need to make the costly repairs? This seems like something worthy of exploring Actually its been hotly debated several times over the past few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrC Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 blk96gt - seeing your pictures I am going to take another look at my set up. I was looking more for cracks in the metal where it is spot-welded and them around the area of the body where the lower control arms bolt in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 While I would surely add a TA it if it were allowed, S197s don't have them and I haven't heard much about problems with them destroying RUCAs. But to be fair I haven't done much research on it. Adding a torque arm would be a $1000+ expense if you have to pay a shop to weld the pickup points. Plus then you get into the business of needing to allow GMs to have adjustable torque arms too. So I can see why it's not allowed...Mustangs are already more expensive to build than F-bodies. Worth exploring yes, but for now I get the feeling that CMC might as well become "Camaro Firebird Challenge" if the rules start going down that route. There's got to be a better way. Glenn, you mentioned a racer is already running aftermarket uppers, do you know specifically what they are? Any chance they can chime in on if it negatively affected rear-end stability at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave1548534741 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 While I would surely add a TA it if it were allowed, S197s don't have them and I haven't heard much about problems with them destroying RUCAs. But to be fair I haven't done much research on it. To address the above, unlike the FOX/SN95 chassis, the S197 has a single, centered UCA, and uses a PHB from the factory to control axle lateral location. The FOX/SN95 platforms use a pair of angled upper control arms to both control axle windup as well as lateral location. As soon as the car is put into roll, the arms begin to bind. Stock, it's a good setup for drag racing, but not so much for carving corners in action. I race both SN95 and S197 chassis, and can tell you point blank that there simply is NO comparison between the two. The S197s design is hands-down superior in every possible way. I've also driven TA-equipped cars, and they are simply a lot more forgiving and predictable at the limits than the QuadraBind SN95 setup. Faster? I would say I doubt it. Do they give the driver more confidence to push to the limit? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 While I would surely add a TA it if it were allowed, S197s don't have them and I haven't heard much about problems with them destroying RUCAs. But to be fair I haven't done much research on it. Adding a torque arm would be a $1000+ expense if you have to pay a shop to weld the pickup points. Plus then you get into the business of needing to allow GMs to have adjustable torque arms too. So I can see why it's not allowed...Mustangs are already more expensive to build than F-bodies. Worth exploring yes, but for now I get the feeling that CMC might as well become "Camaro Firebird Challenge" if the rules start going down that route. There's got to be a better way. Glenn, you mentioned a racer is already running aftermarket uppers, do you know specifically what they are? Any chance they can chime in on if it negatively affected rear-end stability at all? The s197 come with a stock 3 link setup that's why they don't have problems. And why would you have to allow F Bodies to have adj torque arms if you allow mustangs to have a torque arm that is not adjustable?? Allowing mustangs to have a TA is not going to make them any faster it's just making them a lot more reliable! The fast guys will be up front regardless of what they are driving. Giving a mid packer a TA is not going to make him win races but it will allow him to drive the car without having to constantly work on it and worry whether his upper arms are going to bend or warp again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 While I would surely add a TA it if it were allowed, S197s don't have them and I haven't heard much about problems with them destroying RUCAs. But to be fair I haven't done much research on it. To address the above, unlike the FOX/SN95 chassis, the S197 has a single, centered UCA Didn't know that I also thought that all the off-the-shelf TA units were adjustable. Wouldn't spherical bushings on both sides of the arms be an easy solution? Problem with that is I can't find any non-ajdustable arms with sphericals. I would think it would be easy enough to police control arm length on adjustable units...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 No sence in posting what they use as I am going to have to ask them to remove them after the next event. Too many of the Directors didn't feel this was a real problem or were not willing to make a mid season change. Wish you Ford guys luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave1548534741 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 No sence in posting what they use as I am going to have to ask them to remove them after the next event. Too many of the Directors didn't feel this was a real problem or were not willing to make a mid season change. Wish you Ford guys luck. says it all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37Stang Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 While I would surely add a TA it if it were allowed, S197s don't have them and I haven't heard much about problems with them destroying RUCAs. But to be fair I haven't done much research on it. To address the above, unlike the FOX/SN95 chassis, the S197 has a single, centered UCA Didn't know that I also thought that all the off-the-shelf TA units were adjustable. Wouldn't spherical bushings on both sides of the arms be an easy solution? Problem with that is I can't find any non-ajdustable arms with sphericals. I would think it would be easy enough to police control arm length on adjustable units...? The problem with going to spherical ends, or harder bushings for that matter, in the UCA's is that the next week link in the chain is going to be exposed. Due to the UCA's and LCA's being different lengths they travel in different arcs as the rear axle moves up and down. The softer rubber bushings as installed by Ford absorbs the changes in length. Spherical ends, or again harder bushings, is going to induce more bind in the system until something gives. Usually, that something is going to be the torque boxes. The only solution to completely eliminate the problem is to permit the use of a torque arm. I do understand the position of the rules not permitting torque arms. In speaking with a person that shall remain nameless it was said to me that NASA does not want an "American Iron Light" class. With that said, I am moving forward with my build running the Ford UCA's but if torque arms were permitted I would have one on order tomorrow. If the UCA's are in decent shape and you are able to catch it before it gets too bad Moog offers replacement bushings under part# K8637. It comes with the bushing for the UCA and the bushing to go in the axle housing. Cost is ~$20... I have a set sitting on the shelf that I am going to install when I tear my car back down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suck fumes1548534743 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 No sence in posting what they use as I am going to have to ask them to remove them after the next event. Too many of the Directors didn't feel this was a real problem or were not willing to make a mid season change. Wish you Ford guys luck. says it all... LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That pretty much sums it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrC Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 $1000 for a TA sounds a little high. MM had one of their kits for just under $400 this winter, I know they are higher now but I would think you could still get it for a lot less than $1000 installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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