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DanElam

How to reconcile West coast vs. East coast for Nationals

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944 cup
So, as I said before, it's probably time to shelve the idea of growing the 944 spec class within the 944 Cup groups, and it's time to forget about competing head to head against the Cup groups. That's ok.

 

Tim:

 

I'm with ya. Have a good 2006.

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Tim Comeau

Yes sir! Thanks, and you do the same. Sincerely wish you more success.

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bmw22

I have a question for you 944-Spec racers. How do you think your cars match up against the Spec-E30 cars?

 

The reason I ask is that GTS once considered eliminating our GTS1 and replacing it with GTS-Spec. That was a couple years ago and recent rule changes would make it hard to do now. I know from my SCCA ITS days that an IT prepped E30 325i and 944 ran identical lap times. But I don-t know your rules or Spec e30 rules well enough to say how they would compete in Spec trim.

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944 #24
I have a question for you 944-Spec racers. How do you think your cars match up against the Spec-E30 cars?

 

We're about equal. Our fast guys are faster than their slow guys and their fast guys are faster than our slow guys. Our top guys are a second or two faster than their fast guys who fall about 5th overall were they placed in our lap times.

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Tim Comeau

Mark, there are enough SoCal BMW's running in the NABR classes that they run by themselves. Hopefully, this next year we'll being doing the same in the 944 spec class as we want to keep it pure 944 racing.

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bmw22

I'm thinking more about the areas in the midwest and east where GTS has been growing. Basically target the racers that travel outside of their region to regions that may not have 944-Spec or SpecE30. I don't know about you left coasters, but here in the east there are dozens of racers that travel 500+ miles to certain tracks. I was amazed at how many racers traveld from Ohio and PA to Road Atlanta. VIR and Mid Ohio also get the travelers. I'm sure that if Spec E30 or 944 Spec racers came to a Midwest or Ohio/Indiana event they would rather run with the GTS group instead of being thrown in with SU, PS, Spec Miata, etc....

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Packfill

Mark.

 

In many a discussion with Rich, I feel that our cars are a bit faster than your rules... (if that makes sense) Our HP/Torque/weight puts us in GTS-1, but running high 1:35s and low 1:36 at willow (I believe) is about where the top of GTS-2 is.....

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bmw22

That makes no sense considering that a GTS2 944 will have a much better power to weight ratio than a 944Spec car. GTS was just introduce to the west this year and there wasn't many cars entered. Top GTS2 cars in Ohio/Indiana run laps faster than all SCCA ITS cars. 1:44 at Mid Ohio, 1:07 at Beaverun. You will see GTS lap times drop as entrants start modifying their cars to GTS rules and forgeting about their PCA, BMMCCA and SCCA rules. That's what we saw here over the last few years. For me, that has been part of the fun. My 325is started it's life as 2750 lb SCCA ITS car, but it is a whole lot more fun to race as a 2300 lb GTS car with 20 extra HP.

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944-Spec#94
I have a question for you 944-Spec racers. How do you think your cars match up against the Spec-E30 cars?

 

Hard to say with respect to Arizona as there are not enough E30 cars to really compare to. I think there is maybe one spec E30 that has run with us. I don't know enough about that car to know of is prep or driver quality. It does seem to run with our slower drivers however.

 

 

My guess is 944 spec cars will make ok GTS1 cars. Reason being we are pretty good power/weight wise, but will have a less developed suspension. A maxed out GTS1 car wil have similar power/weight, but can have a much better suspension & wheel tire combo. That said a well driven 944 spec should do fine in GTS1 unless you have a well driven max prep GTS1 car. One thing I do know that is turning a 1:35 or 1:36 at Willow means the drivers are doing a great job making the most from the car. My guess is that the 944 spec drivers are getting alot more from thier cars that drivers in series where the cars have a great difference in prep level. One thing I know for sure is all it take is 2-3 really fast drivers in the class pushing each other hard make everone faster. I just need to look at how much the times in 944 spec have dropped over the years as more folks have been getting faster and faster. You know class is getting faster when at PIR you turn a 1:13.7 and can finish no better than 4th in class. I remeber the days when being below 1:15 at that track put you way in front. Now unless you can turn low 1:13's lap after lap you watching the front end of the grid drive away.

 

Of course GTS2 cars should be faster, but this make take time as GTS2 field gets faster cars and the drivers hone their skills.

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John3
There is already a solution, though some of you may not like it since you are talking about 944 cars competing only with 944 cars. GTS Challenge has classes that all you guys can run competitively in. Just by making minor mods or weight adjustments you can be a the front of GTS1, GTS2 or GTS3. ...

 

We don't limit modifications because there are dozens of prep levels out there between BMW CCA, POC, PCA, SCCA and NASA.

 

...bring many into one group is much stronger than have several fragmented groups scattered about.

 

Maybe it's time that the leaders of all the German series have a summit and see if there is something we can do collectively to benefit all.

 

GTS is fine. Spec 44 is fine. 44Cup is fine. But, they were started with completely different philosphies. Of the 3 the only one that could 'combine' with the others and retain it's identity is GTS. The GTS identity is extremely broad, requring only that a car be 'German'. Beyond that is very much resembles a combined PCA BMWCC Club Race.

 

The two 44 series each have much more in common with each other than either have with GTS. Either 44Cup or Spec 44 would be completely engulfed and consumed if they entered GTS. But especially Spc44! If the gulf between Spec44 and 44Cup is a foot; then the gulf between Spec 44 and GTS is a mile!!

 

I hope the tow 44 series get some track time togther at Mid Ohio. Not to compete; clearly they are different kinds of series. But the cars are similar enough that it will be interesting from a technical perspective.

 

And let's get together afterwards to talk; over some giant steaks, enormous baked sweet potatoes and large mugs of beer up at 'Brown Derby Roadhouse'.

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Tim Comeau

John, probably right on all points. That's why we'll work hard to grow this one make/model class and maintain our strict 944 spec identity. One kind of car for all drivers. An equal one.

And hey,.....we get to drive PORSCHES!

(Not that there's anything wrong with a BMW. )

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John3
... OOPPSS I just noticed a 924 all they way up to 15th but he's done quite a few events and has yet to get close to the podium. Sorry just trying to post correct info!

 

... I'm not certain about the other 924s but I do know the driver you mention is in his mid-70s. If you notice his laptimes are considerably slower than everyone else... and it's not because he drives a 924.

 

Actually, it IS the car. I own, built, and 'Crew Chief' #55. We were (all) curious about what it would take to make the lil car run and so engaged in the experiment. Now we know. And I know that I have not provided my driver with a car that could be anything but back marker no matter who was driving.

 

Yeah, we have done quite a few events. Our team prizes drivers with experience and mature judgement who can bring the horse home and put 'em back in the barn sound and fit.

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Spec-944#70

I bet the 924S would make a great Spec car though!!

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John3
I bet the 924S would make a great Spec car though!!

 

Humm. 'Could be a failure to communicate here' Yes, a 924S but not a 924.

 

The Spec series overcomes the big disadvantage of the 924S by making the 944s run on teeny tiny tires. The 44Cup overcomes the big disadvantage of the 924S by letting it (the S) run on big tires if it likes.

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944-Spec#94
The Spec series overcomes the big disadvantage of the 924S by making the 944s run on teeny tiny tires. The 44Cup overcomes the big disadvantage of the 924S by letting it (the S) run on big tires if it likes.

 

I perfer to say the 944 spec series balances the 944 and 924S by having them run all run on the same tires. Same Size tires, same size wheels, same type of wheels, and even same brand and type of tires.

 

BTW... these tinny tires are cheaper than than big fat ones too.

Typical 944 spec tire bill for a season of 12 to 16 races for a front running car.

8 toyos RA-1's 225/50 R15 Shaved to 4/32 at $138 each = $1104

Then subtract Toyo Dollars from that!

All of this on wheels that cost $200 for a used set.

 

 

With respect to the 924. The simple problem is the 2.0L motor does not put enough power out to keep up with the 2.5L unit. When 944 spec was started some consideration was put in for the 2.0L cars. Problem was that it was felt that there would be no "spec" way to make the cars equal. It would always be a guessing game as to how much to give or take on the 2.0L 924 to balance it with the 944 & 924S. So we said no. In the short term it cost us maybe on early racer, but I think in the long run the series is better for it.

 

I love it when folks come in asking about "the best car for 944 spec". The answer is the same. No car or year from 83 to 88 has an advantage over any other. Buy the best donor car you can and don't worry about the year.

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Tim Comeau

John3,

There really is no big advantage/disadvantage with the 87-88 924S's. They trade better aerodynamics for a narrower track width. The one good thing about the 924S is that it comes stock with the short 5th gear.

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Spec-944#70

Bump for Jim!! Have fun!!

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