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WAFlowers

Is penalty for race rubber too low?

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WAFlowers

We just ran our NASA-X Florida, Tampa) first event using NASA-X rules (2005 NE version). During this event it appeared that running "DOT-approved tires wotj tread wear 100 and below" gave a huge advantage that was out of proportion to the +8 penaly points.

 

In fact, the differences in the mean times per class look to be smaller than the time difference resulting from using race tires! That is, bumping up a full class for these tires wouldn't be uncalled for.

 

However, our club is committed to using a common, published rule set rather than inventing our own, so we're stuck with this for now.

 

Does anyone else think that the penalty points for race rubber should be looked at?

 

BTW, I am the Classing Chairman for the club, and will have lots of clarification questions over the next while. No one here has any previous experience with the NASA-X rules and just about everyone has questions. There's also been quite a bit of discussion as we try and figure it out with multiple interpratations of the rules being argued ... arguments that I must settle quickly!

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DriverGT5

It shouldn't be any secret that race tires are the second greatest mod you can make on your car. We assume a 2 second decrease in times for the average 60 second autoX course vs. a nice set of street tires.

 

Do I think it's too low a penalty, no I don't. On a national level, everyone will have race tires. Now, before we adopted NASA-X rules, we split all R compound tires up into a seperate class, and had street tire times and race tire times. Personally, if anything needs to be addressed, I think it should be the amount of penalties that Turbo's are assesed. I can do an NA built, or a supercharger, and come out with more power and far less points assesed to me.

 

Unfortunatly, there are many mods that make you faster than the cars above you in class. Look at out last race results and you'll see what I mean. Even the SCCA has major time discrepencies between lower and higher classes.

 

http://clemsonscc.com/staticpages/index.php/autox-20051029

http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=2809

 

The key is to get the top contenders in each class as close as possible, with different cars.

 

 

BTW, the first greatest mod is the driver.

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Loren

Because NASA does not have any provision for a separate street tire classes, I DO feel that the penalty for R-tires is too low. For all of the things I dislike about SCCA classing, they at least DO have some street tire classes available.

 

With the points system, there should be a way to equalize street tires. Yes, I realize that only the best street tires would actually be competitive... but at least they would be street tires.

 

Rather than revamp the currently functioning points system by bumping the R-tire guys up further than they already are... I wonder if it would be possible to deduct points for cars running on street tires?

 

I guess what bugs me is that if there's going to be an penalty for tires, it should honestly make a difference. As it is, that penalty does not make a difference. No matter what you do to your car, or what class you end up in, if you don't have race tires and your competition does... you're at a severe disadvantage.

 

As you said, tires are the most effective mod. But that's no reason to force it on people by not penalizing it enough. No other mod fits in that category.

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Charles
I wonder if it would be possible to deduct points for cars running on street tires?

 

 

I like that idea too although I can already see the problem registering a bone stock car that does NOT take that 5 point hit. Said car would be "Class E with -2 points" etc ? I guess you could reg a car as -2 points??

 

It could work for the rest of us stuck with points though.

 

I just think the point penalty should be higher for R tires.

 

I'm not going to sweat it though, I'll drive my car "as is" on the RE070's if an experienced driver in my class running R tires regularly edges me out by around 1 sec then so be it

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Loren

-2 points would bump them down a class, which might actually make them close to competitive.

 

I'm not too worried about it, either. I've played the autox competition game in the past. It's fun, but it's not worth getting all worked up about to me. It would be nice to be a top contender in my class, but if I can't be, I'll just battle it out with friends who turn similar times. There's never a shortage of Miata drivers on street tires.

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Charles
-2 points would bump them down a class, which might actually make them close to competitive.

 

 

Ahhh, I see.... never thought about it like that

 

Yeah, or we could always all gang up and treat the R tire guys like outcasts!!

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blacksheep-1

Oh, sure, now you guys want to do this, right after I went out and bought my new race tires.....

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DriverGT5

It is true that the SCCA has some street tire classes, but you still need to be in an M3 on $800+ shaved tires to have a chance. I can easily get a set of used Hoosiers for $100-200. Regardless of how you feel, this is still racing. The people with the most money will almost always have an advantage.

 

Even if you have a major point penalty for R tires, the cars 1 class below you will simply move up, and probably still beat up on the street tire cars. I think if you're going to take it seriously, get R tires. If you're out to simply enjoy yourself and have a good time, then it really doesn't matter.

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boxy rocket
I think if you're going to take it seriously, get R tires. If you're out to simply enjoy yourself and have a good time, then it really doesn't matter.

I agree.

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Vitor

If you are going to run to be competitive get the best tires that are available for your car.

 

If you are just showing up to warm engine up a little bit, then any ol tire will do.

 

Vitor

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WAFlowers

And when we have a club with a mix of people of all levels of ability and seriousness, those with race rubber have an advantage seriously out of proportion to the existing penalty points. So what is the use of having penalty points for race rubber at all, if the points don't reflect the advantage?

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vinman

Going from regular "street rubber" to R-Compound rubber is just a mod - period. It offers a scalable advantage; just like adding adjustable shocks, stiffer springs, LSD, sway bar, etc. I find it more odd that no one (NASA nor SCCA) penalizes for light weight wheels, when they both recognize what other lightened components do (flywheel, wedged cranks, alloy balancers, etc). Suggesting something along the lines of a class bump for R tires is unreasonable. Would you recommend bumping two classes for slicks?

Yes, I use R tires for autocrossing (Yokohama Advan A048). I've run them in two races, so far. I have a classic mini that has a fully modified suspension. The tires made a difference, but no more so than a lot of the other incremental mods I've done. I took more time off my runs (statistically) by adding adjustable shocks. I will admit, when you see someone pull up who is racing in your class, and they have Advans or Kuhmos, or Hoosiers - it is a big psychological blow. The bottom line is this - a mediocre driver with race tires is going to see a MUCH bigger reduction in times than a really good driver under the same conditions. I don't think the penalty placed on different levels of tire compound is disproportional. A set of inexpensive wheels with R rubber is a cost effective upgrade - and that's how this system is better than SCCA; remember?

Just my .02

 

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kbrew8991

100 treadwear allows RA1s in for no points

 

thats something else to address, the cutoff should be closer to 200 and assess points to something softer/racier than something like a Kumho MX or Falken Azenis

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vinman

Ken, are you suggesting that the penalty IS too low? I do agree that the cutoff should be closer to 200-220. Anything softer than that is not designed for normal transportation - DOT approved or not.

 

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