Jump to content
Greg G.

April '19 ST Rules Revision Highlights

Recommended Posts

Balroks
Posted (edited)

I get the request to use ONE form and the edit function, but what are we doing to said form to accommodate all of these variations in tire/hp?  Some guys have A tire setups for track A, and slick tire setups for Track B or summer for example.  This would follow the 1 setup per event rule, but not your 1 form suggestion since it does not provide this option.  So we see some cars having 3 or 4 "forms" uploaded in order to stay compliant.  Unless your suggestion is before every event, we find Internet and edit said forms, hoping all of the IT/sites function as they should to save our edits. 

Edited by Balroks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Greg G.

Yes, just edit anytime after the event weekend before the next event.  The edit function is super easy—-literally takes a few seconds in most cases. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arca_ex

Hi. Another person here with vents that have been perfectly fine and legal for half a decade until just now.

If the intent of the rule was to disallow 2" winglet type vents then why did you make tons of the non-targeted vents illegal that nobody cared about in the first place, instead of setting a height at say, 1"? Or even 3/4" or 5/8" would have been sufficient for the vast majority of people running popular vent kits for many different chassis? So now, there are a lot of people stuck having to buy new vents, buy new hoods, or modify their current setups when YOU HAD THE ABILITY AND CHOICE to achieve what you wanted without screwing them, and have like 95% of the poeple that have had hood vents on their cars for YEARS still be legal. Instead you chose to make what seems like 25 to 50 percent of people with hood vents illegal now.

If the 2" tall vents are the problem, THEN GO AFTER THE PROBLEM, don't create all this fallout for people that have been running just fine for like half a decade and nobody had issues with in the first place! This rule change needs to take cost containment into consideration just a bit. Changing your height limit from 3/8" to say 5/8" or 3/4" isn't going to suddenly chop a second, or even a tenth, off of lap times, and would save a large number of people from having to either spend money, or spend time, to comply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
masterjr33

move it to half inch on the vents.

so the 95% of people that already have them installed . will stay compliant.. 

Thanks. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Roman V.

Please keep this discussion civil. If you have constructive feedback, provide it in this thread for NASA Officials to review. DO NOT attack and/or disrespect any member of the NASA community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
David Sk.

The way I see it is the rule makers make the rules and racers build to the limit of the rules. Im yet to see a car with 215 tires when the rules allow for 255s or a car weighing 3500lbs when 3200 is the limit.  IMO the rules allow for venting with no written limits, a quick google search for st cars shows many pictures with raised plastic vents, louvers and some angle iron lips on the front, so its clear racers also took venting as unlimited.  So a company came out with a better louver design, awesome, when i finally get around to buying a set i will be looking for the best i am allowed to use. The issue for me is how this was handle by the rule makers. They should have accepted venting was open and then if they wanted to set some limits do it for next year, 3/8" for stock venting plus allow unlimited venting with some performance adjustment probably would have not affected anyone, but at least there is a real limit to go by now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JH36
Posted (edited)

Disclaimer...I am out of the country for a week so can’t measure for a bit.  When I got the notice, I emailed John at Trackspec.  He measured some cars himself and reported back that what I have is legal.  I will measure myself next Friday.  I just bought and installed these (after the final rules were posted) in February so I am obviously hoping I don’t have to lobby on this issue.  I already have a suspension issue and a questionable motor to think about!  And...I just registered for nationals yesterday. That said, I agree with most here...if the problem is folks gaming with 2” monster vents, why not make all the commonly, currently used non-gaming systems ok? How about 1” and call it a day?  It seems like a strange issue to bring up after the season has started.  

Edited by JH36

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
K24 Madness
5 hours ago, masterjr33 said:

Move it to half inch on the vents so the 95% of people that already have them installed will stay compliant.

 

This seems like a reasonable request. 

Greg I know you're in a tough position with a lot of the changes. Can't recall hearing people jumping up and down for any of em. That being said please review your processes of implementing changes such as these. Would it be reasonable to pole those with existing vents before hand and try and ascertain where the line should be drawn? Clearly those with 1-2"+ are in the minority and would get pushed on the other side of the line one way or the other. It's a great way to show respect for the community of customers who have been following the spirit of the rule without having them get gathered up in the carnage of those who abused it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rherold9
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, K24 Madness said:

This seems like a reasonable request. 

Greg I know you're in a tough position with a lot of the changes. Can't recall hearing people jumping up and down for any of em. That being said please review your processes of implementing changes such as these. Would it be reasonable to pole those with existing vents before hand and try and ascertain where the line should be drawn? Clearly those with 1-2"+ are in the minority and would get pushed on the other side of the line one way or the other. It's a great way to show respect for the community of customers who have been following the spirit of the rule without having them get gathered up in the carnage of those who abused it.

I have suggested, you know, simply talking to the community... in the past and it obviously has been ignored... I mean look at the example of GTS community... I guess it's easier to be a dictator vs a leader

Why do still drive in this series? Is the only way to get attention and change is money, which means lowered car counts? (And this is meant to be constructive feedback. It doesn't seem like our words matter and that a decision is final without any discussion, that's the issue I think a lot of competitors feel. I know for a fact this isn't only me, I'm just not afraid to say anything. This is the second time I'm voicing this concern)

Regardless, I'm still going to give it a chance and I will get NASA-MA guys to start posting their data. And hopefully will get more at Hyperfest

Edited by rherold9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
masterjr33

I think the INTENT was to prevent some new over the top style of venting set up.,

 

I HOPE/ dont THINK the intent was to force 30-50% of the field to modify the vehicle they have run in a class for 5 years 

just to stay compliant in the same class they have been in.

 

Address the initial intent. and dont punish or change what people are already running.

you already said this was designed to curb someone using 2 inch vents.. well. was this designed to make the field change 30-50% of the already classed in running cars?

 

not according to you.   fix the rule to address and correct and prevent the original intent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Roman V.

As Greg has stated. Please provide pictures and measurements of your hood vent setups in this thread so we can make adjustments to the rule if there is a necessity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quigs

 

9 hours ago, Roman V. said:

As Greg has stated. Please provide pictures and measurements of your hood vent setups in this thread so we can make adjustments to the rule if there is a necessity. 

V2 Singular Motorsports vents for NA/NB Miata attached.

 

vents1.jpg

vents2.jpg

vents3.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arca_ex
Posted (edited)

Singular V2 NA Miata vents here as well. Arguably the most popular off the shelf vent kit for NA/NB/NC Miatas and they also have kits for Subaru, RX8, etc etc.

 

These tabs are integral to the vent. Will have to waste a day drilling out rivets, cutting them down, and reinstalling. And if I wanted to make them as they were, I'd have to strip and re-anodize them as well. Thankfully I am not in the situation of having to buy a new hood and new vent kit...

 

 

IMG_20190427_103331.jpg

IMG_20190427_103401.jpg

Edited by Arca_ex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Arca_ex
Posted (edited)

One other point to consider... how many cars in HPDE or just street cars that are potential NASA customers have kits like these installed? Or cars in other organizations that you would want to recruit into NASA? Now when it comes time to dip their toe into TT just to try it out, how many of those will just opt out instead of taking an angle grinder to their nice anodized or powder coated vent kit? If the rule was increased to say 3/4" then you could avoid possibly decreasing the car counts in the long run.

Edited by Arca_ex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trackspec_John
Posted (edited)

Hey guys, 

Trackspec got a bunch of calls the other day about this rule change and I wanted to clear some air around our design and assure everyone with Trackspec vents they are INDEED IN COMPLIANCE to rule ST1-4 & SU (v13.3) and ST5 & ST6 (v2.4) as discussed on this thread. Here are some specific model vent heights OFF OF THE HOOD SURFACE. This is the MAX anyone could interpret on reading the rule. If its off of the vent frame, we are even more in compliance. 

Rule regulation max height: .375"

Miata: .21"

BRZ/FRS: .28"

S2000: .28"

C5 Corvette: .19"

C6 Corvette: .19"

944 Porsche: .28"

E36 BMW: .28"

E46 BMW: .171"

Universal 4 and 5 x 12": .23"

GT2 Center vent: .21"

More measurements available upon request thru emailing us [email protected] We don't come on this forum very often but will try and check up on this one while we are traveling to COTA leaving this week. We are working on releasing a technical bulletin shortly on this subject and will have your model specific measurements and technical drawings available for download to bring to tech. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Our vents better be in compliance as I will be running in ST2 NASA COTA event next weekend in the SPEC CORVETTE :) ! Feel free if anyone is at the event to come by and discuss with us. We will have a large SPEC CORVETTE and Trackspec Canopy up, friday night will have the grill going. I'll post on FB and IG where we end up landing in the parking lot. 

Thank you for your continued support and please let us know if you have any questions. 

John Nguyen #15 SPEC Corvette

Trackspec Motorsports

Edited by Trackspec_John
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rherold9

Weird about the track spec comment as a fellow competitor has track spec on his S2K and said measured from hood they aren't legal...

IMG-20190428-WA0001.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trackspec_John
10 minutes ago, rherold9 said:

Weird about the track spec comment as a fellow competitor has track spec on his S2K and said measured from hood they aren't legal...

IMG-20190428-WA0001.jpg

There is entirely too much variation when different people measure and how they measure and what they use. We are working with a very tight tolerance with the rules and the drawings will be the most accurate that we will have shortly. I also pulled all of the vents and measured them with a caliper to verify tolerances and we are dead on. If the measurement wasnt taken completely level ( by eye) you can misinterpret the reading. The S2000 vent blades protrude above the HOOD VENT FRAME .2". Once you add our vent frame of .080" to it, you get .28" total height to where ever that is mounted to any part of the hood. Its all relative to that point you mount it to so you must take the measurement of the vent height above the frame of the vent and add the frame thickness that sits on the hood. That will give you the total height of the vent above the hood surface at that point and that measurement will be true for any point on the hood. 

S2000 MAX Vent blade protrusion above Trackspec vent frame:  .20"

Trackspec Frame thickness for all vents: .080"

.20" + .080" = .28" vent height at any point of of the hood as the frame is mounted ontop of the hood. That is well within the allowable .375" and any allowable tolerances that NASA may allow to the rule. 

Please let me know if you have any questions. Great discussion.

John Nguyen

 

IMG_1611.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trackspec_John

Also note that if we were to ever have a reason to produce vents to lower the heights of the vents, we can quickly make replacement vents to a new spec to replace your old ones. This will prevent anyone from having to replace their entire hoods and we will work with you to get it corrected with minimal financial impact if you have our products already on the car and replacing them. Just a thought for any potential future rule changes. 

John

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rherold9
4 hours ago, Trackspec_John said:

There is entirely too much variation when different people measure and how they measure and what they use.  

 

I'm in total agreement. People are going to go into Nats thinking they are legal and may get dq'd over something so trivial because impound measured them differently than the person did because there is no measuring standard and as stated there is no perfect way to measure this... 

For example my front louver using Singular hood vents is not legal, but look at what just a small angle change makes in measurement with a tape measure...

IMG_20190428_175409.thumb.jpg.67551e8ef6da552fc1f3873a2fba8b51.jpg

IMG_20190428_175612.thumb.jpg.e4b0bb731a46667970a2b9db82e89cd6.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wazgtsRacer

Is there an example picture of what this new 3/8th inch rule was intended to eliminate?  Just curious. 

I personally think the 3/8th limit is too small given it makes almost all hood vents I have seen illegal, from mitata's to BRZs to my bmw... Its not like its a hard fix.. just trim off some metal or bend them down, or mount them on the inside of the hood...whatever.. but i feel like we are not the target of the rule.  

I'd suggest increasing the allowance to 3/4"  I think that would allow people with vents that were originally inside the "intent" of the class to be legal and still small enough to eliminate people trying to gain some sort of areo advantage.  Ill measure mine tonight... but pretty sure they will be in the 1/2-3/4" range 

-Matt Wasilewski 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
srproductions
4 hours ago, Trackspec_John said:

There is entirely too much variation when different people measure and how they measure and what they use. We are working with a very tight tolerance with the rules and the drawings will be the most accurate that we will have shortly. I also pulled all of the vents and measured them with a caliper to verify tolerances and we are dead on. If the measurement wasnt taken completely level ( by eye) you can misinterpret the reading. The S2000 vent blades protrude above the HOOD VENT FRAME .2". Once you add our vent frame of .080" to it, you get .28" total height to where ever that is mounted to any part of the hood. Its all relative to that point you mount it to so you must take the measurement of the vent height above the frame of the vent and add the frame thickness that sits on the hood. That will give you the total height of the vent above the hood surface at that point and that measurement will be true for any point on the hood. 

S2000 MAX Vent blade protrusion above Trackspec vent frame:  .20"

Trackspec Frame thickness for all vents: .080"

.20" + .080" = .28" vent height at any point of of the hood as the frame is mounted ontop of the hood. That is well within the allowable .375" and any allowable tolerances that NASA may allow to the rule. 

Please let me know if you have any questions. Great discussion.

John Nguyen

 

IMG_1611.jpg

I posted that about my S2000.  When I measured from the surface it wasn’t legal but again the problem lies in the very close tolerance and no precise way to measure making this rule difficult to accurately enforce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jrgordonsenior
5 hours ago, Trackspec_John said:

Also note that if we were to ever have a reason to produce vents to lower the heights of the vents, we can quickly make replacement vents to a new spec to replace your old ones. This will prevent anyone from having to replace their entire hoods and we will work with you to get it corrected with minimal financial impact if you have our products already on the car and replacing them. Just a thought for any potential future rule changes. 

John

You should also consider mounting the flange from the underside of the hood and thru bolting it which would lower the louvers by the flange thickness....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wazgtsRacer
2 hours ago, jrgordonsenior said:

You should also consider mounting the flange from the underside of the hood and thru bolting it which would lower the louvers by the flange thickness....

That's my plan.. measure... if they stick out too much... which they will.  Ill just re-mount from the inside of the hood... then have a buddy 3D print a plastic frame that Ill mount on top of the cut out to make it nice and clean looking.. as my jagged ass jig saw cut is covered up by the louver lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trackspec_John

I think they best way is to get NASA to accept our technical drawings and part numbers into the "approved" parts list that way no one has to measure. The work is done before you hit the track and the part #s are common knowledge. Once we get the tech drawings out you can download them and save them on your phones for that one tech inspector thats having a bad day...ask me how I know! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Savington
Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2019 at 1:49 AM, Greg G. said:

That being said, if it was found that lets say 40% of ST4-6 competitors currently have hood vents that are not compliant by 1/8" , them we would certainly entertain proposals and requests for a revision to that specification. 

I took the liberty of asking the ST5 Facebook group whether or not their vents were legal based on this new rule. Here's what I found. 

Out of 25 people who replied, FIFTEEN (15) people indicated that they are current NASA ST5 competitors who have vents which are made illegal by this rule. 

Out of the remaining ten, 7 of them do not use hood vents, and 3 of them have legal hood vents. 

I am absolutely certain that your intent was not to make 60% of your customer's cars illegal with a mid-season rule change. You have more sense than that, Greg. 

My suggestion would be a height limit of 1" above the hood line. That captures every example I have seen thus far, with enough wiggle room to preclude requiring your tech inspectors and series directors to walk around with a pair of calipers and a straight-edge, but excludes the aero-sculpted 2" vents as well. 

Hopefully you can get this change made quickly so we can all stop worrying about this. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1533156986753335/permalink/2178044648931229/

Edited by Savington

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...