Chip for 83-84 box

[n wright]

I'm getting serious about finishing the spec car and was talking to a 944 guy about getting a chip. He did a chip for my 85.5 many years ago and I am currently running his chips in my Turbo track car.

 

I assumed I could just get one for the 84 I'm building and plug it in.

 

According to him the early engine mgt sucks and the box has 4 boards that basically comprise the one chip on the 85.1 and later. He says it's a real pain to chip the older ones.

 

His suggestion was to switch over to the later engine mgt which means a new harness, injectors, fuel rail, and air flow meter. All that sounds like a real PIA and more time and money.

 

What have the guys with the older engine mgt done as far as a chip if anything? I know many people may say you don't need a chip.

 

Help the newbie!

[mfoley]

Great to hear you're getting serious Neil.

 

I can't help with your question because I have a late '85 car, however if you touch the chip go straight to the dyno. I bought and installed an FR Wilks chip and it was bad. It cost me an engine.

[greg f]

The only answer right now for the early cars is FR Wilk, and that will only be until he runs out of the adapter boards. Installation takes a while, and takes a fair bit of patience to do it right. Autothority used to do it for $500, but they no longer have access to the boards that replace the 4 chips for 1 replacable one. Greg F

[Spec-944#70]

I have the same issue Mark did. I have the soldered board in my DME with a FRWilks chip and suspect it was a primary cause of the engine issues I've had. (Among other things) I installed a 85.5 DME and AFM and now run a Autothority chip. No more issues. You don't need to swap fuel rail and harness. I can get you the P/N's if you'd like for a search on Ebay!!

[mfoley]

If anyone knows how to reach Mr Wilks I'd like to know. He won't return my emails and I'd at least like my money back for the defective chip.

[Spec-944#70]

Good luck!!!!!!!!!

[mfoley]

That's what I thought!

[n wright]

I now have an early box and an early AFM. Anything else needed for the switch over?

 

Thanks

[legoland951]

My understanding is nothing else needs to be changed other than the DME and the AFM from early to late. I am not sure how the early cam works with the late DME though I believe the late DME chip can be programmed to accomodate the early cam.

[n wright]

Thanks Frank,

 

When you say late cam, is that 85.5 and later?

[Tim Comeau]

If anyone is wondering, the early AFM has the part number right on top and ends in a 028. The late AFM ends in 064.

[uberklasse]

Frank,

good to see you on the board! Everyone reading in....Frank is a walking encyclopedia on 944's. He has probably built and torn down more 944/924's than anyone on the planet.

 

for the record...2 early cars...no chips

[944-Spec#94]

Hmm,

See as how some folks with early cars are having problems with aftermarket chips...

 

 

Anybody interested in a stock chip rule?

 

Enforcement could be easy as a couple "bank" DME's and random swap before the race time where all competitor swap DMEs?

 

 

BTW... My 87 DME in my spec car (from my 87 924S parts car) has chip so I'd be giving that up.

[uberklasse]

stock chip rule would be very cool IMO

[mweeks]

The only poblem I see would be DME compatibility. But the idea is great.

[944spec92]

Random DME. What a perfect scenario for a SPEC class! All bone stock. Cheap. Easy to replace. Spares to be had. Takes the engine management wonder out of the equation. Puts driver skill back to the forefront. May assist in evening out the perceived HP disparities. Takes cubic dollars even more out of the picture. I for one would support this wholeheartedly.

 

OK, OK... may slow down some of the cars. But (ever wonder why there's always a butt on the end?) what about those who spent a wad in the race budget to max out allowable engine regs build up? What about those who run 110 race fuel? Or even 100? Ever wonder why they need to run higher octane? Especially that high and at such expense? And no, don't give me the lame excuse of needed delayed detonation. No 944spec car runs such high RPMs or such high HP that this is needed. OK, maybe it keeps cylinder head temps down a bit, helps reduce ping, helps one feel like they are Ricky Racer in a true race car. Come on, this is a SPEC class.

 

For those needing/required to run race fuel - just how much is the compression increase? And how? A simple glance at dyno sheet HP and Torque curves by an educated tuner who makes the statement "wonder what cam they have in that so called SPEC engine?" Makes one also wonder just how SPEC is this SPEC platform? Based on provided current written SPEC rules, another knowledgeable, experienced, and extremely capable Porsche mechanic has chuckled at the use of 110 for a 944spec car. Even going on to mention that this may even possibly hurt engine performance.

 

For those who have been the stalwarts of 944spec, for those who are considering taking the plunge into 944spec sphere, and for those just barely getting their 944 toes wet what an opportunity to state that all cars are equal and driver skill really can shine. Isn't this the true spirit of the class? How far in such a short period of time has that spirit been stretched? Trust me, the stretching is way past started. There are suspect motors. Best way to get rid of that before its too late? A DME raffle at each event? Maybe the best idea yet.

 

There is nothing wrong with a highly regulated, proven fair, low cost to enter, low cost to run, and mucho fun to be had class. That is quite possibly the most common thread in this very forum the past few years. 944spec participants looking for more have already abused the spirit. Sorry to burst the bubble.

 

If you want to spend the money and if you want to go faster, move up a class or two. If you want to spend smart money and become faster, buy track time. If the desire is still for safe, fun, close racing should we ponder this DME pooling thought more in depth?

 

BTW, have raced in a cubic dollar car, class and run groups. Sold that to go play in a ceiling class and to try to develop some driver skill. Hope to be more involved in 2006. I have a 1985 (early) 944 with a stock DME, another chipped DME, some lucky underwear, and no desire to spend stupid money on trying to max anything out.

[Spec-944#70]

Great idea except not all DME's can be swapped. The early DME's only work with an early AFM. (83-85.5) 86-87 if I remember will work on the harness but you'll need the 86-87 AFM. The 88 DME has a different wiring harness all together. Those who know for sure help out but I know for a fact that you just cannot swap DME's willy/nilly. I like the idea though!! But we would need multiple DME's for different cars. Could another solution be to inspect and then seal the DME's before each race?? I still have my stock chip and would be up for this as it would be easy and free!! Another thing to double check is the rev limiter. I can't get to my book right now but I seem to remember the 88 cars had 200 more RPM avail!!

[Packfill]

Ray, This is the type of (irresponsible) post that will bring harm to this class..

 

First, you claim that running higher octane fuel makes one suspect, but later you say that "another knowledgeable, experienced, and extremely capable Porsche mechanic has chuckled at the use of 110 for a 944spec car. Even going on to mention that this may even possibly hurt engine performance." How can both of these be accurate?

 

PS: VP Fuels suggest 98-100 octane for 10:1 motors, but who are we to trust them??

 

Ever wonder why they need to run higher octane? Especially that high and at such expense? ... another knowledgeable, experienced, and extremely capable Porsche mechanic has chuckled at the use of 110 for a 944spec car. Even going on to mention that this may even possibly hurt engine performance.

 

Then you propose that we have "an opportunity to state that all cars are equal and driver skill really can shine" Isn't this the platform that we are currently running?

 

...what an opportunity to state that all cars are equal and driver skill really can shine.

 

How about the statement (again, with no backup,) "There are suspect motors..." WHO, WHERE.... I have raced almost every race this season, I have driven 1/4 of the cars on the grid. I have looked (closely) at most of the cars in the class. Where are the suspect motors?? How can statements like this (without any fact of detail) do anything but harm this class? I know of NO driver in this class that wouldnt GLADLY surrender his motor to inspection to dispell any rumor of advantage.

 

Trust me, the stretching is way past started. There are suspect motors.

 

But wait! There's more! Ray, PLEASE tell us what you know that we dont...

 

...944spec participants looking for more have already abused the spirit. Sorry to burst the bubble.

 

For those of you that don't know, Ray is a friend of mine, and actually talked me out of buying a Formula Continental when I got out of karting and into this class. He is a great guy and a talented driver with a Porsche pedigree...

 

Why is it, that human nature is to think that every car in front of you is "suspect" and every driver behind you isn't as talented?? There is however, one common thread I seem to notice that ALL of the front running cars have in common... THEY GET DRIVEN A LOT!! It seems I rarely, if ever, show up to a Friday practice day, (and I admittedly practice a lot) with out seeing Dylan, Mikael, etc... already there or coming.... Maybe we should put a limit on seat time???

 

PS: as far as the DME rule goes, I dont believe that chipping these cars creates disparity and I am indifferent to the rule change...(as much as I champion NO RULE CHANGES) My 86, still has the same chip I bought it with..although I am not sure what it is...

However, if you want to make a total flight to 88 motors/DMEs.....make this rule....I do not believe the 88 motor is better.... I do believe the 88 DME is better... I believe raising the C/R and chipping the earlier cars CREATED an even playing field... but as always, I will go with the majority... (Note to self, start searching EBAY)

 

PSS: Dwain (who admitedly has more resources than all of us) runs a stock 88 chip.....

[Tim Comeau]

Guys,

If you suspect a car is out of spec, notice I did not say cheating, call me asap. We need to address that immediately for the continued growth of the class. I'm dead serious about this, guys. You'll see the ugly side of me in a hurry if some one is messing with this class. I don't want that. I've put way too much time into building this class up to have a $hithead or 2 sink it. Every driver has to help me police this class' cars. This is exactly why I insist that we pit together, we drink beer over dinner together. Open communication, and lots of it, builds trust. Rumors and speculation growing into mistrust and resentment are what caused splintering in the Phoenix Group. It ain't gonna happen here in SoCal. Nuff said.

 

 

I thought about the idea of handing out DME's by lottery before each race just like Porsche used to do with the Carrera Cup cars in Europe. But in that series all the cars were the same year, same compression ratio, same timing, etc. Exactly the same.

We would have 3 different DME's (early, late, 88 ) to deal with.

Chips are hard to police and they don't make that much power. That's why they were left "free." We didn't want to chase that tiger down because it wasn't worth it. The idea is certainly in keeping with the spirit of the class and I salute the drivers who have already jumped on board in support of the idea.

But, I think it's an additional task that really isn't going to impact our program at all.

Edited December 23, 2005 by Guest

[Spec-944#70]

I don't think anyone is cheating. No ONE person is running away with anything. You may see Dwain winning most of the races he's in but thats from seat time as usually 1 or 2 cars posta faster lap than him so it's not always the fastest car that wins. Dwain knows how to get around traffic and use it to his advantage. Then if we're able to catch him we'd have to actually pass him and that's another story all together. Dylan hits fastest laps on alot of occasions and TC kicked off a 1:35.5 during our race at WS with the POC yet he came in second!! The cars that pass me (and there are alot of them!!) are not drag racing me but carrying more speed through the corners than I am. It's not rocket science and besides the AFM is still the great equalizing device we have!! Build a 200HP motor and put our 140 RWHP AFM on it and it'll make 140RWHP. The new cars out in our class are coming in with 120-125 RWHP and the front runners probably have 130-135 with an occasional motor at about 138 RWHP.

Again no one is cheating as most of us personally would find it a shallow victory to win that way. The Spec guys are all good as we help each other, drink with each other and help each other improve our driving. While I may never catch Tim, Mike, Jim or Dylan I can still play with some of the other up coming guys and that's what makes this so fun.

So if anyone suspects someone of cheating tell TC behind the iron curtain and let him deal with it. This is starting to get fun again just like the knuckleheads on PelicanParts BB who think they can get 10 HP from a chip!!! If we want more HP then MAF is next if not just leave everything alone and lets go play!!

[Tim Comeau]

Time to split this thread off. Keep talking about chips here. The new thread will be about car equality and swapping cars.

[n wright]

Wow, interesting turn of events in my chip question. I only brought it up due to my personal experience with a chip for my car when it was an n/a many, many moons ago.

 

I bought a chip for it and I noticed a seat of the pants difference. Not really sure if it made more hp. I know it felt better and it did increase the rev limiter.

 

Tim knows I'm building an engine and I've asked him to personally inspect it on the stand where the internals are visible. I'll likely not be at the front of the pack anytime soon, but when I am, I want it to be known the engine is 100% legal. Besides, I plan on renting the car out and possibly selling it down the road.

 

Blind statements/accusations are bad for the business of having fun.

 

As Seargent Hulka once said "lighten up Francis" and go easy on the "bubble bursting" stuff.

[Packfill]

A Stripes reference??

 

You are gonna get along in this class just fine...

 

"Sergeant, does this mean we're through for the day?"

[Tim Comeau]

...and that's a fact, Jack!

[944-Spec#94]

I tossed in the idea of stock chips and DME swaps.

 

I don't really feel that we need it, but I do believe it something in the rules makers bag of tricks if we think things are getting out of hand.

 

I personally have run an 88 DME on my 87 harness. Result... car ran fine expect seat of the pants said my chipped 87 DME got me a tiny bit more. No dyno to prove it however. That of course was with my 88 motor. Spun a bearing in that motor and pulled out my trustly 84 block and have that in car now and when I pulled 134 rwhp. I don't think I lost an ouce of power from the 88 block to the 84 block. Both had the same 87 head & cam.

 

So... I folks feel we need to limit to stock chips I certainly think it can be done. However I don't believe it will change the balance of power in the series nor will it make it any cheaper, safer, or more reliable either.